HAL's Future Whether We Like It Or Not?

[bookworm0911]

Interesting article. Can HAL resist or is this the only way a cruiseline can stay in business in today's world?

 

www,tampabay.com/news/story.cfm?storyid=137723

[Druke I]

I think there is a problem with the link, at least as you printed it.

[Oceanwench]

Let's hope HAL resists.

We just booked our first 2006 cruise this week. We're staying with HAL!

 

You can't click on the link -- you have to do a copy & paste.

[leonardray]

can not open it

[sail7seas]

LeonardRay....I had to copy and paste the addy into my address bar.

 

[bookworm0911]

I have no idea why it won't link clicking directly on it, but it is the correct address and as others have posted you can access the article.

 

I just thought it interesting and we are seeing HAL make a few of these changes slowly. The one I do like, though, is spending some nights in port.

[sail7seas]

I think the article was interesting and thank you for posting it but, really, there is nothing new in it that we have not heard and seen for years now.

 

 

We see high usage of Lido for dinner, Room Service and HAL has had an alternative restaurant on some of it's ships for 8+ years (Marco Polo and Odyssey) and now on all of it's ships in the form of Pinnacle.

 

We have seen cruise lines with little or no dress code evolving for years.

We have seen all cruise lines (including HAL) enhancing its children's programs.

 

One HUGE difference I think was mis-stated or overlooked in that article.

A HUGE number of today's 60+ year olds are not the sixty year olds of yesteryear. A great many of them are briskly (as in speed walking) walking Promenade for 3-4 miles daily for the exercise. A mere few are leisurely strolling halfway around as many of our grandparents did. The gym is not full of only 20-30 year olds; there is an equal number of 50-70+ year olds working out daily. While, sadly, there are a number of more senior people with physical limitations, there are tremendous numbers who want the kayak excursions, hiking, and more strenuous excursions that they younger folks are looking for. Many people in this retired and getting ready to retire generation are very physically active. They lift weights; distance bicycle and swim. They are healthy and hearty and have time and money.

 

The one thing that I read in that article as something cruiselines are thinking about is overnighting in ports so passengers can enjoy local entertainment venues. I think that would be great.

 

Don't write off our fifty something year olds; or sixty something year olds as ALL ready for a rocking chair. A lot of us can way out 'rock' a bunch of hugely out of condition 20 something year olds. ;)

JMHO.....but something to think about?? Eh???

[lizzielady]

Comma after www instead of period

[bookworm0911]

Thank you.

 

www.tampabay.com/news/story.cfm?storyid=137723

[RevNeal]

Quite apart from the content of the article, I really didn't like its attitude and tone: "Fuddy duddies" and "geriatric set" and "boring" and the condescending remarks about dressing up and 6-course sit down dinners and such. Everything was written in such a way to reflect pejorative attitudes toward such things. I suspect this is because the intended audience is young, 18-35 year olds, many (but not all) of whom are very much into negative agism these days. This is very sad.

 

I'm in my 40s, yet I like the more traditional style of cruising. Given HAL's continued popularity, and expansive growth over the past 5 years, I would have to say that they're doing something right by maintaining at least some of the long-standing traditions of cruising. They're providing alternative, yes, and that's good, but they're also maintaining at least the atmosphere and flavor, as well as some of the reality, of traditional cruising. We can see this in the Vista ships and, indeed, in the SOE upgrades to the S-class vessels. HAL didn't install a rock-climbing wall and super slide on the Westerdam or the Ryndam, did they? No, they didn't. Neither did they do away with the set-dinner times or the formal 6-course meals; indeed, they designed their ships and the main dining rooms on the Vistas specifically to cater to such a tradition, while also providing alternatives. This reflects HAL's determined effort to BOTH maintain tradition AND provide alternatives to appeal to the "younger" set. Interestingly enough, some of those younger people who try the more traditional form of cruising discover they LIKE it.

[WillK]

I guess that the good news is that the cruiselines recognize that survival = adaptation. Change is inevitable and the business that embraces this concept is the one that prospers. I think that HAL is doing a good job of combining tradition with innovation. Some of my favorite retailers are no longer in business because they simply couldn't/wouldn't adapt to changing market/demographic demands. As a baby-boomer, I'm one of those people who, just 5 years ago, would've never considered a cruise vacation. I believed that cruising was only for "the newly wed, overfed or nearly dead". Well produced advertising campaigns changed my perception.

I remember listening to my grandparents complain that they hadn't been on a "decently run" ship since they'd sailed on P&O's Viceroy of India. I believe that it sank over 50 years ago. Perception and recall are funny things. It's easy to forget the bad things about the past and remember only the good.

[Sweetdreams]

Rev Neal,

I could not agree with you more! I'm still in my 40's too (only barely) and found the article offensive in their reference to what the "older crowd prefer in cruising). What they went on to criticize is traditional cruising, which many of us still enjoy.

 

Cruise companies have recently documented that the "average age of cruise-goers is 50 years old, down from 60 a decade ago" (Wall street Journal 7/15/05, W3). The article also went on to state that pax used to enjoy motorcoach drives to the rainforest but now want to swing from the treetops! Families today seem to have more disposable income that years ago & perhaps these "products" as pictured in the article have their own market. Since we hope to book another HAL cruise soon and in years to come, I will continue to cruise with a line that offers the time-honored traditions of traditional cruising.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing the article with us Bookworm.

[mickeyfitz]

Rev. Neal you're exactly right. Many of us love HAL because we like a traditional cruise experience and, while that preference may be somewhat tilted towards the upper end of the age spectrum, it is far from exclusive. What I hope for is that HAL can offer choices and flexibility, while still maintaining its fundamental character. That's a difficult task.

[peaches from georgia]

.... What I hope for is that HAL can offer choices and flexibility, while still maintaining its fundamental character. That's a difficult task.

I agree and we want the traditional HAL cruising to continue.

 

But what we already see happening is that when you shoot for younger and less traditional pax such as HAL has done on the Vista ships, then those new pax within a short period of time gravitate towards trying HAL's older smaller ships and want those to be less traditional also.

 

HAL is not going to be able to have it both ways and herein is the source of arguement on so many topics we see here on CC. Any ideas on how HAL can try to be all things to all pax? My belief is HAL is not going to be able to be different things to different people on different ships.

[tlmlb]

Quite apart from the content of the article, I really didn't like its attitude and tone: "Fuddy duddies" and "geriatric set" and "boring" and the condescending remarks about dressing up and 6-course sit down dinners and such.

 

that is way too sensitive and a bit elitist....

 

they are just reporting facts, circumstances and marketing trends.... HAL will die if it tries to become all things to all people...

[jhannah]

I'm in total agreement with Greg's comments. There are sources for any type of cruising one could want. I just would like HAL to keep its niche where it is.

[kryos]

Let's hope HAL resists.

We just booked our first 2006 cruise this week. We're staying with HAL!

HAL will yield to the demands of the public. At least if they want to stay in business they will. Any company will.

 

I, too, like traditional fixed seating for dinner, but I doubt in another five or ten years that will be the norm anymore. Many other lines have already made the switch. Princess offers both traditional and personal choice dining, and from what I understand Personal Choice is beginning to edge out traditional in popularity.

 

There was a time when the majority of cruise passengers were much older, and had lots of disposable income. They demanded things like formal nights with all the hoopla associated with them, and they liked taking two-plus hours to dine each night. But today's cruise ship passenger is getting younger. They are sailing with their children and, as the article stated, they are demanding more time in port to engage in active excursions. They don't want to come back after a long day of kyaking and face the prospect of a two-hour dinner that they perhaps have to get dressed up for. Their children won't be able to sit still for a long drawn out dinner ... especially the younger ones. These folks want to pop into a casual dining venue where they can be in and out in less than an hour, and they want to be able to do so in the same pair of shorts they wore onshore ... and without having to spend an hour getting all the kids washed up and into their "evening wear."

 

I know a lot of us don't want to see all these changes, and I too like some of the things as they are now. But, sadly the market will drive cruise line policies. As long as there are enough people who like the "traditional" style of cruising, such as that found on HAL, it will stay. But when the day comes that the majority of the passengers are demanding changes, those changes will go into force. You can bet on it.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[cruisecrasy]

couldn't agree more. What say re: Personal Choice and Traditional dining choices - isn't that the best of both worlds? HAL isn't providing choice and as Rita says will likely have to in the future but that isn't a bad thing - at least in my opinion - and Hal will then continue to do well. Lets not forget folks - there are the alternative restaurants that will continue providing dressier, long, elegant dining experiences for those that want it..Happy cruisin' all!

[sail7seas]

couldn't agree more. What say re: Personal Choice and Traditional dining choices - isn't that the best of both worlds? HAL isn't providing choice and as Rita says will likely have to in the future but that isn't a bad thing - at least in my opinion - and Hal will then continue to do well. Lets not forget folks - there are the alternative restaurants that will continue providing dressier, long, elegant dining experiences for those that want it..Happy cruisin' all!

 

 

I think they will only be able to offer that (logistically speaking) if they design and build their new ships differently than the current ones.

The "S" sisters, Zaandam/Volendam and Rotterdam/Amsterdam are not physically capable of doing Personal Choice dining IMO I cannot imagine how they could do it well with the limitations due to design they have to deal with.

It might be a little more possible on the Vistas but, also, IMO, they were not designed to offer a great enough number of venues for evening dining.

[kryos]

I think they will only be able to offer that (logistically speaking) if they design and build their new ships differently than the current ones.

How about one seating for traditional at a set time ... maybe 7:30 p.m. and then the dining room becomes personal choice until about 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. The dining room is also personal choice from about 5:00 p.m. to around 6:30. If not all passengers wanted traditional any longer, this would work out fine. Also, on HAL, there is a real viable option for casual dining in the Lido. Nice tables with table clothes, your entree brought to your table ... they could "spice" up the Lido offerings for casual dining and have a viable venue for personal choice right there.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[iceman93]

That's a good point, kryos, and exactly what I think they're going for. By adding the linen tablecloth table service (with the full formal dining room menu available) in the Lido, and by maintaining a dress code (albeit greatly relaxed), they have set up Lido dinners as the "freedom dining" option or whatever one wants to call it.

 

HAL is smart to keep the traditional set-time dinner and to offer an alternative restaurant. In this way, they can sort of be all things to all people, attracting new passengers while not losing their loyal ones.

[peaches from georgia]

... By adding the linen tablecloth table service (with the full formal dining room menu available) in the Lido, and by maintaining a dress code (albeit greatly relaxed), they have set up Lido dinners as the "freedom dining" option or whatever one wants to call it.

 

We have only eaten dinner in the Lido on one formal night, but they did NOT have either the lobster tails or escargot, which are standard in the dining room on the last formal night.

 

Lido will have several of the dr entrees each night, but not all, so you need to check the menu first. You are able to order from the full dining room menu through room service, however.

[sail7seas]

How about one seating for traditional at a set time ... maybe 7:30 p.m. and then the dining room becomes personal choice until about 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. The dining room is also personal choice from about 5:00 p.m. to around 6:30. If not all passengers wanted traditional any longer, this would work out fine. Also, on HAL, there is a real viable option for casual dining in the Lido. Nice tables with table clothes, your entree brought to your table ... they could "spice" up the Lido offerings for casual dining and have a viable venue for personal choice right there.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

:confused:

 

 

When will the crew get to sleep?

I find it very unlikely there are many HAL pax who wish to go for dinner at 10:00 or even later as you suggest. There is already so much grumbling from a huge percentage of those assigned to 8:30 dining. (Me included. We like 8:00 dinner but 8:30 is too late for us and for many, many HAL cruisers.)

What about those who still want the late night buffet each evening in Lido? The folks who had dinner at 5:45 are hungry again.

While not all of the stewards work Lido late night, many of them will be just finishing up serving in the dining room and then some number of them have to go to Lido?

Sure, if HAL really wants to do it they'll find a way. I VERY MUCH HOPE they have no interest in doing it.

Like has been said so many times.........why are we trying to make all the cruiselines the same? The differences in each is how we make our choice which one to cruise. I don't want every cruiseline to do what any other one is doing.

If one wants personal choice, choose it.

If one wants traditional dining, choose it.

But why do we have to try to make all of them be the same? I see that as a very negative. It gives no choices for personal preferences. It becomes all homogenized.

 

[sail7seas]

Also, on HAL, there is a real viable option for casual dining in the Lido. Nice tables with table clothes, your entree brought to your table ... they could "spice" up the Lido offerings for casual dining and have a viable venue for personal choice right there.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

 

Haven't you noticed they already do this? Have you been on an HAL ship in recent years that does not?

Tablecloths on the tables every evening in Lido. You select your salad and appetizer from the buffet and then a steward serves your entree.

We have never dined in Lido in the evening, but we have walked through during early dining hours and have seen the tables set with nice cloths.

[KAJOKG]

Money is the bottom line. Whatever the cruise line's owner (in this case, Carnival) sees as a money making proposition or money losing programs, the head office will make the changes. So far, the changes on HAL are modest, but as we cruisers get older and the younger ones "mature" there will be changes that will necessitate the line to adapt and appeal to the new set of cruisers. Can't be in business without adapting. I was happy to see HAL broaden dining options for those of us who don't particularly enjoy dressing formal. We sail the Volendam and enjoy being able to skip one formal night and have the opportunity to dine in the Lido instead of at a hamburger grill. Also happy to hear tht HAL still serves room service dinners from the dining room menu. Princess has stopped this practice and I miss that. And I really don't see these changes ever eliminating formal nights. There are so many folks who really enjoy that...and I do like one night. But it is nice to let those who don't want to run out and buy formal clothes have a viable and acceptable option.