Reason for staffing "reductions": delays in Visa application approvals?

[rkacruiser]

When I first made this posting, my hope was to get a definitive answer as to what was causing the perceived staffing problems: visa approval delays, purposeful staff cutbacks, or what. As peaches of georgia points out, we still do not know, but gizmo believes that there has been a reduction in the number of service stations.

 

Could it be that the staff reductions vary by cruise itinerary(and the cost of such)? A good friend who recently returned from the Prinsendam's World Cruise described the service received as "excellent, as usual". The bargain cruise rates of the last two years may have led us to the staffing problem some HAL veterans have seen on their particular cruise itinerary.

 

I agree with elmorejj that good service is what I expect, no matter what the nationality of the crew. But, it is the Indonesian and Filipino crew that helped to make Holland America stand out from the rest of the cruise lines.

 

Having recently returned from a long cruise on Royal Princess where the cabin stewards and many of the lounge stewards were Filipinos, their service was just as warm and personable as on any HAL vessel. Service differences, however, were noted by some--not all--but some of those from other nationalities. When they got to "know you", they warmed up and provided the expected personable service. Until then, service was perfunctory.

 

I recall a Hotel Manager on a HAL ship telling a group of us passengers that managing a crew where there were few differences in nationalities was easier and made for a more smooth operation than when the crew came from many different nations. I am not sure that the management on board the ships would favor adding crew from a variety of different countries.

 

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[ocngypz]

Crew members rotate on.. and off......they come and they go.

 

The following crew numbers are courtesy of the CDC. I've just picked one ship because of it's latest inspection date.. the Zaandam 5/24/2004.

You can check the staffing levels yourself on the CDC Green Sheets

 

Normal staffing complement on the Zaandam as built: 561

 

5/23/04 593

10/15/03 587

5/27/03 586

1/8/03 589

12/17/01 566

 

The lucky pax on the Maasdam 5/1/04.. had 550 crew.. for only 586 pax!!!

 

Volendam 4/00 593, 4/02 604, 5/03 590, 10/18/03 593

 

Regarding the Vista class ships... as built.. they are meant to carry 842 crew members. Zuiderdam on 5/1/04 carried 775 or 92% of complement. So far she's the only Vista class ship which has shown up in the CDC's Green Sheet report.

[elmorejj]

Very interesting. I think I`ll bookmark that site and check back frequently..jean

[rkacruiser]

Many thanks, ocngypz! I do check the CDC's Green Sheets once in awhile and never thought about the fact they do list crew as well as passenger numbers for that voyage when the ship is inspected. I appreciate your suggestion!

 

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Could it be that the staff reductions vary by cruise itinerary(and the cost of such)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A good friend who recently returned from the Prinsendam's World Cruise described the service received as "excellent, as usual".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we are talking apples and oranges when you get into a World Cruise. From what I have been told, things are different on these cruises.

[ocngypz]

Pdam is a little harder.. because of her international itineraries.. but here are the #'s.

 

Normal complement 460

 

1/20/04 Los Angeles 437 Crew

9/12/03 San Diego 431

5/17/03 San Francisco 394

 

Someone who has old brochures can tell us where she was going... or had been.

[sail7seas]

Ocngypz....thanks for facts. We could talk this subject round in circles for days on end but you gave us facts. I find the numbers very interesting.

 

I, also, read the CDC Green Sheets on a regular basis and also did not think to cull out the crew numbers.

 

Seems if one pays attention to the facts (pesky as that may be ), the crew numbers are NOT way down as some have said they are.

 

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

 

 

 

 

[localady]

Very interesting information! Thank you for showing us. The numbers don't appear to match the perception. And one has to believe the "green sheets" are factual and reasonably accurate, there is no reason for there not to be.

 

Thanks again!

 

Happy Cruising!

 

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B

12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal

7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

 

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

 

[Guest Anorak33]

Although I have always had a look at these reports and scores before booking a particular ship I also had never considered the crew numbers.

 

With the increased security requirements of the last couple of years however I would find it credible that although total numbers are not down it may be that security related crew are up and dining room stewards are down for example.

 

I should think even a change of say 10 waiters would make a noticeable difference to the speed of service. There must be 10 security crew doing all that searching, X-raying, bodychecking , booze confiscation etc.And when in port there were at least another dozen crew stationed on ship along the side nearest the pier at all possible "unofficial" access points to onboard.

 

I have only had 14 days on HAL (and that very recently) and found it generally excellent but can understand old-timers see a reduction in service.

 

Certainly from my experience the cabin and dining room crew on HAL seem to have to work longer and harder than on Cunard.

 

Note to LOCALADY - please do not continue posting something nasty directed at me after each of my posts .

 

Statendam

QE2 (x2)

Regal Princess

Golden Princess

Royal Princess

Big Red Boat

[elmorejj]

I also have been thinking that maybe there is a shift in the crew. Adding more to security, engineers dept.etc, and taking from service areas is a possibility..jean

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sail7seas:

Seems if one pays attention to the facts (pesky as that may be ), the crew numbers are NOT way down as some have said they are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I don't believe anyone said the crew numbers were WAY down, if someone did I missed it. Cabin stewards have more cabins to handle, dining room staff have more tables so this appears to be cut backs in the staff. The serving stations that have been removed on the Rott indicate staff was cut. The serving stations on both sides of the removed one did not have additional stewards sharing them.

[sail7seas]

It is my opinion that has that has been posted on this Board any number of times by a number of different posters.

 

While that PRECISE language may not be exactly written in that EXACT way in this thread, I think many will agree we have all read that some folks have stated crew numbers are way down.

 

 

 

(the grass is green; the sky is blue)

 

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

 

 

 

 

[ekerr19]

My boss is Canadian, working the States on a Visa. He just got a renewal, it took 6 months from the time of application. He was also told that the application for renewal could not be submitted prior to 30 days of the expiration of his current Visa. It is a very expensive, labor intensive project too. The questionaire was huge and very detailed. The company was required to provide all sorts of corporate information, financials, 10-K's & Q's, proof of insurance, explanation of business dealings, etc. This was just for a renewal.

 

Also, I noticed a post above about HAL sending $200 a month to the families of the employee... we've had numerous conversations with staff about this - (basically, they are discouraged to dicuss compensation with pax), but what we were told is that the employee (depending on their job description/classification) is only allowed to keep about $50 US per month. The remaining funds MUST be sent home to a spouse or parent. I am not certain, but I believe it may have something to do with taxation. I know for sure it is not HAL choosing to be generous to the employee's family. Most wait-staff we have talked to only make about $150 US per month...

 

Noordam 1984

Veendam 1999

Amsterdam 2000

Noordam 2001

Statendam 2001

Noordam 2002

Zuiderdam 2003

Maasdam 2004.

Noordam 2004

[peaches from georgia]

I don' think anyone knew, cared, or commented on whether overall total crew numbers are down. Pax are only concerned about the crew that directly affects them and the personal service they receive on the ship. No denying, from tha amount of complaints and comments from a variety of ships, that the number of cabin and dining stewards directly serving the pax is down.

 

We saw a big difference ourselves in the 8 months between our cruises in the # of cabins and # of tables that the stewards were assigned and it showed, especially in the dining room. There may be a shift in where crew is serving and overall numbers are about the same, but those directly serving the pax apparently have been decreased. Whether 'way down' or simply 'down' is immaterial- as long as pax are complaining it is hurting HAL.

[sail7seas]

Facts and figures are so useful in these sorts of conversations.

 

 

I found the figures posted by Ocngypz to be very helpful facts.

 

 

 

(The grass is green; the sky is blue.)

 

 

 

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[localady]

It seems to me that the pot is calling the kettle black Anorak. We are all allowed our opinions, and most posters don't seem to need to attack people in doing so.

As most here will tell you, I am generally a pleasant poster, but I will not stand still and watch nice people insulted because some one is having a bad day, or bad life.

Happy Cruising!

7/04 Ryndam Alaska B2B
12/04 Rotterdam Panama Canal
7/05 Prinsendam Baltic

RCCL x2(1999), Volendam (2000), Millinneum (2000), Veendam (2001), Disney (2001), Statendam (2003), Amsterdam (2003)

[peaches from georgia]

But the numbers shown here give you no facts as to where this crew is serving on the ships- operations, maintanence, food and beverage, security, housekeeping or so forth. The fact/figures that show on average the overall crew assigned to each ship mean nothing re pax service complaints without knowing whether crew directly serving the pax has decreased.

[sail7seas]

No, these figures, as presented do not.

Do you have other figures you can share with us that would be helpful in determining how many dining stewards are on each ship? How many there used to be? Used to be when? Will be next week or next month or whenever the "interested person's" cruise is scheduled?


I do not mean to be a "wise guy". I would genuinely like to see such figures. I have a hard time stating something to be a fact or asserting it in such a way that folks would take it that way.....when I do not have credible facts to back it up.

Just my preference to have the facts in hand.



(The grass is green; the sky is blue.)

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[sail7seas]

[B]ekerr.....[/B] That puts a perspective on the difficulty foreigners are encountering these days renewing/getting Visas. Most of us have little contact with these situations and it is interesting to learn what real people are experiencing.

I'm sure there are very valid security reasons for the long time it takes and the thoroughness of the questionnaires. I wouldn't begin to challenge the necessity of that. I would have no way of knowing what is or is not appropriate or how long it should take.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[Orcrone]

I would be more interested in determining the staffing levels in various areas (specifically dining stewards and room stewards).

s7s - what does "the grass is green; the sky is blue" refer to. Today the sky is gray, but my weeds are green (and healthy).

1/1990 - RCCL Song of America
4/13/2003 - Carnival Inspiration
10/30/2004 - Maasdam

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Till sailing on the Maasdam

[Esme]

I'm not getting into this argument but all I know is that there was a shortage of staff in the dining room on the Rotterdam last month and Willy, the Bar Manager, said his staff was down and he had 3 new bartenders. I didn't ask him the reason why.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> s7s - what does "the grass is green; the sky is blue" refer to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to know also. Someone else asked S7S's this question and she has yet to answer. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

The grass is green here but the sky is covered in smog all over Southern Ontario. We are in the 90's with high humidity. Yuck!

[rkacruiser]

Thanks to several very helpful people, our discussion has progressed to the point, I think, of can we ascertain definite staffing level numbers currently for dining room staff, cabin stewards, lounge stewards, etc. as compared with historical numbers for those job classifications. Does anyone have access to that kind of information and is willing to share it?

As to the issue of the hiring of current employees whose sole job is security, may I offer the following observations. On my Zuiderdam cruise in September, I recall seeing one uniformed security guard roaming the ship in the evening and at the gangway when we were in ports The officer in charge of the ship's security was also visible. I do not recall who was operating the x-ray machine. On Royal Princess, the security guards patrolling the outer decks when we were in port were sailors under the direct control of the Staff Captain(I know this because I asked one of the men who he was and what his responsibilities were). Lounge stewards and staff from the Purser's Office were operating the x-ray machine at the gangway entrance. I did not get any sense that Princess had hired anyone "special" for that particular job. My guess is that if Princess Cruises is doing this, then, in the name of following "Best Practices" within the Carnival family of cruise lines, the other Lines, including HAL, are doing this also.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[ekerr19]

rkacruiser-

I think the security staff are very much present on the ship - we may just not always notice them... I say this from our experience on the Zuiderdam, DH & I were requested to the security office to file a report and I must tell you what we saw in the office was state of the art monitoring. Many staff appeared to be in civilian clothes, maybe undercover, not sure. With so many people on board, you figure they must have a pretty extensive behind the scenes operation.

Sail-

I thought the Visa information was interesting as well. The first Visa was obtained before 9/11 and took about 30 days... I agree with you on the new security procedures - they are in place for a valid reason.

I am going to take a guess at "the sky is blue and the grass is green"... perhaps a reminder that focusing on the small pleasures in life is more important than getting caught up in trivial aspects...

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[ocngypz]

Why would any cruiseline cut low paying positions to hire expensive officers if they were trying to save money??

Yes, the Staff Captain on all lines is the top man ... responsible for the security on the ship. The Chief Security officer reports to the Staff Captain. The .. and I hate to use the word,, but REAL security people.... you don't see.. but they are there. I've never seen any mid-rank or above officer manning the security x-ray areas. Just junior deck officers and crew.

[raydon]

I work for a large healthcare company. We actively recruit in foreign countries and mostly in the Phillipines. Just after 9/11, the time for visa increased dramatically and we, in my industry, were left with some significant staffing gaps, not because of poor planning but because the Visa time doubled. We recruit there to fill staffing gaps unfilled by our active USA recruiting campaigns. The recruited Nurses receive exact benefits and wages a US trained nurse would receive (immigration requires this). Over time the visa problem has eased up and things have pretty much returned to normal, at least in the Philipines. By the way, it is much more difficult to hire a Canadian Nurse. Makes no sense, but that is a fact!

Recently on the Golden Princess (and we are HAL fans by the way) a Phillipino crew member shared there were many changes happening on Princess as well..(since CCL). One he thought was coming was the staff members leaving now at the end of their contract would be required to pay their plane fare to return. That is a hefty sum for someone to lay out and may result in less desiring to return. The cruiseline does "offer" to deduct it from their salary over the length of the contract. Apparently CCL already does this, but as you probably know, most of their service staff are Islanders and airfare would be considerably less. I also noticed on Princess, as we did on the Rotterdam in Nov., there are an increasing number of Eastern Europeans working in the dining rooms. Not sure why..just an observation. I prefer the Phillipino and Indonesian staff because of their quiet ways and also because I work with many folks from there. They are great folks but so are the other staff from other countries.

I do know we have relooked at our foreign recruiting and the expense it incurs.All companies whether the travel industry or the service industry or whatever have to pay attention to their bottom line. On our last cruise a couple of weeks ago my DH and I talked about how little our cruise fare had changed in 10 years but how much nicer the ships were. We just need to put everything in perspective. Way too much rambling from this girl!!!

Radiance of the Seas
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