Flying over war zones

[altiva]

I will not argue too much because you have just not done enough unbiased research in my opinion.

 

MH17 was flying 300 miles further north and 3,000 feet lower than its sanctioned and chosen flight path which just happens to be 300 miles further north and 3,000 feet lower than the previous 10 MH17 flights were give in order to avoid the danger area both in distance and height and not its intended flight path but it was very similar to much previous flight paths before the area was declared by Aviation authority a danger zone and instructions were issued to avoid the area. Look it up.

 

You believe that Ukrainian Jet fighters had the right to shadow an Airliner at 32,000 feet? Look it up.

 

You doubt the Spanish Air traffic controllers story so you doubt that event occurred?Just some twisted individuals who decided to make up untrue stories before most of the public had even heard of MH17 by hacking relevant peoples twitter and facebook accounts thus causing the accounts to be suspended and all their conversations removed? You may doubt there existence even but they are there and electronic date/time imprinted. Look it up.

 

3 days after the MH370 went missing the last recorded contact with air traffic control was made public, MH17,s last recorded contact with air traffic control has still not been released? Is one a bigger Air disaster than the other to render MH17,s more secret or classified? Or is there some truth to the doubted Air traffic controllers denounce false stories seen on twitter that the authorities actually seized the recordings immediately after the disaster?

 

Why was the recording of a Rebel leader telling a Russian General they had shot down an airliner so quickly released to the public when it has since been proven it was recorded 16/7/14, could world government organizations with all its technology not also discover this first before releasing it? Or do you believe that Russia recorded it along with the rebels to purposely incriminate themselves? why has it not been removed from media just as the Air traffic controllers comments were?

 

Rebels may have blown it up as Russia may have but so could have Ukraine or a hijackers bomb!

 

If it is in fact ever found to be Ukrainian weapons fired by Ukrainians I doubt the strong sanctions that are being threatened by USA on both Russia and Rebels will apply to Ukraine.

 

Me I will know what really happened when an unbiased investigation is conducted which seems more and more unlikely the more you research and time goes by.

 

Take a look at Russian media of Russian satellite photos that show the Ukrainian BUK missiles positioned within firing range of MH17 before and on 17/7/14 and then Gone after the downing, then go looking for USA satellite images of the same! They have not been released even though the US satellite was tracking over the area and Russia has shown proof? Too secret? or not good for public opinion?

 

You are wasting your time, talking to a paid Russian troll:

"Dear people, stop taking seriously and talking back to the employees of the Centre of Information technologies of Skolkovo, building 3, floor 2. They receive 85 roubles for every post, monthly pay - 30 000 roubles plus bonuses. I ask all the admins to ban this pro-Kremlin propagandists, and its not a violation of democracy, because they are not even people - they are fake profiles with stolen photos. The people who use them change every day. Sometimes profiles work around the clock, three shifts - think about it, a real person can't post five days and nights in a row without pausing to sleep. Some profiles exist for many years, and are used periodically for information campaigns against Russian opposition.

I urge you to ban Kremlin trolls, because now, during the war, the information balance is very important."

[MicCanberra]

Interesting thoughts.:rolleyes:

[Cruise_me_Crazy]

You are wasting your time, talking to a paid Russian troll:

".... think about it, a real person can't post five days and nights in a row without pausing to sleep. ."

 

:D Our Mic can, he's a public servant, he can pull straight up 8 hour shifts and not wake up :p !!!!!

 

Bwahhhhhhh *saunters off chuckling*

[Cruise_me_Crazy]

Oooops. Now I need to come back n ask a serious question :o.

 

If I am flying Bris Dubai Rome, does anyone have any advice where I view a flight nap pre departure??? Are there any websites? :confused:

[The_Big_M]

Guessing you mean flight map?

 

There's nothing given to show your planned route publically, it's only internal to the airline.

 

However, you can check past routes of that flight by some tracking sites. But only where there is tracking information e.g. some land and over large sea areas typically won't be covered. For example, http://www.flightradar24.com/

[fishtaco]

Bit long winded but a link to Russia's news conference on MH17 tragedy if interested.

 

Although it proves nothing at least it is military stated fact to the worlds public rather than just accusations without proof that are being fed to us by main stream media..

 

 

[Cruise_me_Crazy]

Guessing you mean flight map?

 

There's nothing given to show your planned route publically, it's only internal to the airline.

 

However, you can check past routes of that flight by some tracking sites. But only where there is tracking information e.g. some land and over large sea areas typically won't be covered. For example, http://www.flightradar24.com/

 

 

Yes yes. Shikes to auto correct! :) thanks for the link!

[Pushka]

This might have changed but this was Venice to Dubai 2 weeks ago.

 

[dancinman66]

Gets a bit scary when you think about it what other dangers are really out there when we fly

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[fishtaco]

You are wasting your time, talking to a paid Russian troll:

"Dear people, stop taking seriously and talking back to the employees of the Centre of Information technologies of Skolkovo, building 3, floor 2. They receive 85 roubles for every post, monthly pay - 30 000 roubles plus bonuses. I ask all the admins to ban this pro-Kremlin propagandists, and its not a violation of democracy, because they are not even people - they are fake profiles with stolen photos. The people who use them change every day. Sometimes profiles work around the clock, three shifts - think about it, a real person can't post five days and nights in a row without pausing to sleep. Some profiles exist for many years, and are used periodically for information campaigns against Russian opposition.

I urge you to ban Kremlin trolls, because now, during the war, the information balance is very important."

 

Did they forget to pay me:confused:

[fishtaco]

Come off it. The bases of your claims so far are unsupported, conspiracy sites, or Russian sources. Both should not be accepted unquestioned, especially given Russia's criminal history in this matter, and likely involvement.

 

For example, your first claim:

 

 

 

I've posted earlier a map showing the wide variety of flight paths the previous 30 MH17 flights had taken, outside a wider range than this one. Oddly, you have ignored that and continue to report this false claim... and now say I haven't done research!

 

Further, just in respect of whether it was the directed flight path, it is easy to see this confirming it was the right one, if you do basic research: http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-was-on-the-right-flight-path-when-it-was-shot-down-over-ukraine-malaysias-transport-minister-liow-tiong-lai-says/story-fnizu68q-1226994302100

 

I have given sources in both cases so this can be assessed.

 

 

 

Again, this is only claimed by conspiracy sites. I may as well claim it was shadowed by UFOs and shot down and then tell you to disprove that, for all the credibility this has.

 

By the way, there's also a big difference between near, and shadowing.

 

 

 

My response is the same: "It may well be as the Spanish government claims, that it's a fabrication.

 

In fact, reading the tweets, it appears very likely it was Russian propaganda, as if he were genuine, how would he even know "they were trying to make it look like an attack by pro-Russians" straight away, when it was way too early for that? Everyone's initial reaction was shock (aside from the jubilation of the terrorists, who immediately went to try to salvage what they could, as they had done after each shoot down.) Unless he was part of the 'conspiracy' - in which case why would he have given an interview to the Russian RT two months earlier? It doesn't add up."

 

I note you have ignored my questions, and just accepted those claims as is. Given how much propaganda is produced out of Russia especially, I'm surprised you're not more questioning.

 

 

 

This is just the standard propagandists/conspiracists diversion. What do you expect to hear? ATC covers all flights and there are no comms unless initiated by the airline. Given the shrapnel indicates it was hit by a missile, which means the crew had no idea it was happening, there wouldn't be any communications at ATC about it.

 

Say the last communication was an hour before the event. What relevance would it have? Talk about introducing red herrings. We didn't hear their take off comms with Schiphol ATC either. Maybe it's a Dutch conspiracy as well?!

 

Honestly, I find it insulting to the lost to indulge in conspiracy games about this.

 

 

 

I haven't seen any official evidence this was from 16th July. As before, if you care to actually share some authoritative facts and sources, rather than just allegations from conspiracy sites, I can comment.

 

 

 

At this stage the source is not known, although there are a lot more grounds to suggest it was fired by the terrorists. However, if you kept across the research you would have seen it was impacted by an external missile. That therefore rules out the last speculation.

 

 

 

Again, if you had done your research, you would have known that the sanctions have been in place for a much longer time now, and are due to Russia's illegal invasion and occupation of Crimea, and subsequent support of the invasion further north. As Russia has continued their actions, the escalations have been ramped up progressively. The sanctions are not because of the plane shot down.

 

 

 

Russia has put out masses of theories about how someone shot it down... aside from the terrorists and themselves. Which makes sense given their likely guilt, and the standard tactic of trying to create uncertainty. Many of those claims have been without water. As we have video of the terrorist's BUK launcher in the vicinity, and then rolled out straight after, and the subsequent images confirming that firing, there is no lack of evidence against the terrorists. OTOH, that territory was controlled by the terrorists at the time, so there's not a lot of credibility for anything showing a large, slow missile launcher operated by Ukrainians in the middle of enemy territory. Especially when you see how fierce battles have been on the edges, and how Ukrainian trucks and planes were destroyed on the outskirts, so had no hope of getting in.

 

Since the downing, there have been subsequent rocket and missile strikes from Russia, and more BUK launchers mobilised towards the border from Russia.

 

See my link:) took me ages to find it and unfortunately its Youtubed now but this may sway your bias thoughts of the tragedy if not it may make some other readers realize its not such an open & cut case as being told to us!

 

I couldnt care less about Russia or Ukraine but I do care who is responsible and for my safety when flying!

 

By the way such an important world press conference was not shown to the public by 99% of the western main stream media:confused:

 

[The_Big_M]

See my link:) took me ages to find it and unfortunately its Youtubed now but this may sway your bias thoughts of the tragedy if not it may make some other readers realize its not such an open & cut case as being told to us!

...

By the way such an important world press conference was not shown to the public by 99% of the western main stream media:confused:

 

 

Actually, I saw that referred to when it was released a few weeks back, on a number of "mainstream media" sources.

 

Given Russia are the supporters of the likely cause they're trying to defend themselves in this presentation. It's far from surprising that they do that - but it doesn't make it authoritative.

 

And when you consider their denials about:

1) their invasion of Crimea

2) their support of the terrorists

3) their previous invasion and occupation of South Ossetia...

 

they've already been shown to lie and say and do things that suit their objectives.

 

They have lied so many times in recent history in similar matters that it just comes across as more propaganda. It also doesn't prove anything of its own, e.g. none of what they show, such as moving radar around is evidence of the cause. It's just serving to try to create noise and uncertainty about their involvement.

 

However, you refer to alleged deficiencies in the western media. Have you seen the bias presented in the Russian mainstream media? They sing from one songsheet. The western media is far more balanced overall.

 

I couldnt care less about Russia or Ukraine...

 

That's pretty sad itself.

 

I'm not a fan of any country getting attacked by another, whether Iraq, or Israel/Palestine, or Ukraine. And in this case, if you understood the situation better about what Russia is doing with Ukraine and has done with e.g. Georgia, you may have a better understanding of this specific incident - which is only one in a long chain of actions.

 

And so far, there are estimated around 2000 killed in Ukraine from these Russian sponsored actions. That's about 10 times as many as on that plane.

[fishtaco]

Actually, I saw that referred to when it was released a few weeks back, on a number of "mainstream media" sources.

 

Given Russia are the supporters of the likely cause they're trying to defend themselves in this presentation. It's far from surprising that they do that - but it doesn't make it authoritative.

 

And when you consider their denials about:

1) their invasion of Crimea

2) their support of the terrorists

3) their previous invasion and occupation of South Ossetia...

 

they've already been shown to lie and say and do things that suit their objectives.

 

They have lied so many times in recent history in similar matters that it just comes across as more propaganda. It also doesn't prove anything of its own, e.g. none of what they show, such as moving radar around is evidence of the cause. It's just serving to try to create noise and uncertainty about their involvement.

 

However, you refer to alleged deficiencies in the western media. Have you seen the bias presented in the Russian mainstream media? They sing from one songsheet. The western media is far more balanced overall.

 

 

 

That's pretty sad itself.

 

I'm not a fan of any country getting attacked by another, whether Iraq, or Israel/Palestine, or Ukraine. And in this case, if you understood the situation better about what Russia is doing with Ukraine and has done with e.g. Georgia, you may have a better understanding of this specific incident - which is only one in a long chain of actions.

 

And so far, there are estimated around 2000 killed in Ukraine from these Russian sponsored actions. That's about 10 times as many as on that plane.

 

Then you know all about the Ukrainian forces killing of so many civilians but fail to mention this:confused:

 

You also know that Ukrainian shelling not separatist is hampering MH17 investigations?

 

You believe USA,s social media report spin against Russian official military media release and call that more credible?

 

How is the western media far more balanced in this incident when it is one sided and has been from the moment the plane tragedy was released?

 

Russia has lied in recent history? what a bout USA lol The gulf of Tonkin attack that did not happen, how many dead? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that turned out to be "Documented" as false before the war but they still attacked, how many dead ? Not allowing sanction against Israel for the most recent brutal crimes against humanity that way outweigh all victim in all other conflicts from 17 July until now?

 

Mmmm its all Russia you know lol

 

Biased as I said!

[The_Big_M]

Then you know all about the Ukrainian forces killing of so many civilians but fail to mention this:confused:

 

Not sure how it related to the plane shoot down, or invasion by Russia? :confused:

 

It occurs as a consequence of the terrorists bunkering down in the centre of key cities, and Ukraine trying to remove them. If terrorists managed to embed themselves in Sydney or any big city, I am sure there would be civilian casualties. That's why they are terrorists - their aim to them is more important than civilian life.

 

Read about the mass grave found after the terrorists were moved on from their previous base of Slavyansk. The terrorists executed residents and dumped them there for reasons including looting and no apparent reason at all.

 

You also know that Ukrainian shelling not separatist is hampering MH17 investigations?

 

The reverse. Read the statement from our foreign minister, after Australia left, about the terrorists being the main problem in getting access to the site. That said, it's in the middle of fighting so there could never be an easy resolution. The Ukrainians couldn't just indefinitely let the terrorists build a free base there either.

 

You believe USA,s social media report spin against Russian official military media release and call that more credible?

 

Huh? No, the US is a limited source of news, although they have good satellite coverage. The same as Russian spin is a very poor source, given they are the instigators of the conflict.

 

How is the western media far more balanced in this incident when it is one sided and has been from the moment the plane tragedy was released?

 

Because you get more sides of the story, and without as much spin as you get from Russian media. They define one-sided in this conflict.

 

Russia has lied in recent history? what a bout USA lol The gulf of Tonkin attack that did not happen, how many dead? Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that turned out to be "Documented" as false before the war but they still attacked, how many dead ? Not allowing sanction against Israel for the most recent brutal crimes against humanity that way outweigh all victim in all other conflicts from 17 July until now?

 

Your anti-American rant when they don't have anything to do with the situation says a lot about your argument.

 

Mmmm its all Russia you know lol

 

Russia invaded and is currently occupying another country, and supporting terrorism.

 

You trying to draw America into your argument shows your bias.

[fishtaco]

As time goes by and memories fade no new news or information about the tragic MH17? Perhaps most will forget!

 

The most recent air disaster is already in court with cause/blame firmly established!

 

The only reports about MH17 to date believed by most has been from social media as opposed to the public available Russian military and intelligent reports along with Russian air traffic controller tapes, Information leaked from the investigation reviled that MH17 was possibly shot down by a missile but more likely an air to air missile not ground to air along with 30mm cannon shots from a military jet.

 

I have no reason to be in Russia,s corner for anything and I love USA but when you first smell a rat there usually is one!