Neurovirus

[serendipity1499]

Nobody is suggesting that people do not wash their hands but rather that they augment this with the use of the sanitizers provided. Recommending avoiding sanitizers is irresponsible and is not based upon any meaningful evidence. Those that say that alcohol based sanitizers will not kill germs, even many viruses, are just misreading the evidence that is there. They are quite effective when used correctly but even then are not an absolute barrier.

 

The advice by the CDC also runs a little contrary to the World Health Organization, whose current guidelines take into account real life practices rather than ideal scenarios. Hand washing certainly helps but research shows

that compliance with hand washing, even after the bathroom, ranges at best into the mid 80% range and in some studies as low as in the 35% range. Men are always shown to have lower compliance rates than women, which should cause all of us men to hold our heads in shame.Those figures include ANY attempts at hand washing ( i.e. even just a splash and a few seconds under the running water. When you look at the rates of "effective hand washing we get even lower. Even in hospitals the rates of effective hand washing are only in the mid 60's percentage wise, with the worst compliance being with physicians.

 

So to rely on hand washing alone and to avoid the supplementary measures such as alcohol based sanitizers ( which Purell is by the way and at a percentage of greater than 60% ethanol... the recommended minimum) is based upon a misconception at best.

 

The World Heath Organization, has in my opinion, done a stellar job in developing excellent guidelines. For those who want to read all 270 pages ( because some seem to like to go direct to the source) please feel free.

 

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2009/9789241597906_eng.pdf?ua=1

 

 

<SNIP>

Norovirus is not airborne and you cannot catch it by breathing. You can catch it if you happen to inhale/ingest liquid vomit splashes when an individual near you throws up, which is where the airborne myth arises I believe. And isolation only partly works because an individual can be contagious for up to 24 hours BEFORE symptoms appear.

 

 

 

As a final note I am rethinking whether a cruise was ever a good idea but perhaps if I could find one with a 100% female passenger manifest, with mainly nurses and no physicians ( oh and nobody from Chicago...... Chicago had the lowest compliance rates for hand washing among a recent study of major centres). Now if I find that cruise maybe I should book. Well if Mrs Fizzer will let me.;)

 

Fizzer Just a question for you as you seem to be able to explain things: I bolded your paragraph about Noro not being air-bourne..

 

Why or how is it you can catch a cold (virus) but not Noro (virus) in the air? Do you know for a fact that you can't catch Noro from someone who sneezed next to you & did not cover their mouth? See my post above where I quote the Merck Consumers Manual about catching a cold when someone sneezes into the air..

 

When I'm at school every week, I worry about the Little ones who are sent to school even when they are sick.. :eek::eek: I'm amazed how many are sniffling & sneezing.. We work one on one with each child.. Realize many come from a one parent household & they may not have anyone to care for their child, which is very sad:(..

 

So far this year, I haven't caught a cold or been ill with Noro, but I still have two more weeks to go..

 

Please wish me luck!:D

 

P.S. You & POA made me laugh today.. Thanks! :D

Edited May 6, 2015 by serendipity1499

[cbr663]

Has anyone read a recent study by Canadian doctors that found that the norovirus can be spread in the air? I wonder how this will impact the cruise industry? http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/04/20/cid.civ321.abstract?sid=a93c103c-14a6-4a86-b42d-84aa0a80efcb#

[Blue Mudshark]

Has anyone read a recent study by Canadian doctors that found that the norovirus can be spread in the air? I wonder how this will impact the cruise industry? http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/04/20/cid.civ321.abstract?sid=a93c103c-14a6-4a86-b42d-84aa0a80efcb#

 

According to the abstract, the study indicates that the virus may be present as an aerosol (i.e. in the air), but it does not show any evidence of transmission of the viral disease via that mechanism. They showed that the virus may be detected in the air, not that anyone caught the disease by breathing that air.

[cbr663]

Thank-you @Blue Mudshark. You are correct that the study showed that the virus was detected in the air and that the virus maintained its infectivity and integrity in the air. It did not state that folks could catch the virus in the air. My apologies. That was an incorrect assumption on my part.

[Fizzer59]

I hadn't planned on participating further in this discussion, not wanting to upset anyone. However,

 

Has anyone read a recent study by Canadian doctors that found that the norovirus can be spread in the air? I wonder how this will impact the cruise industry? http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/04/20/cid.civ321.abstract?sid=a93c103c-14a6-4a86-b42d-84aa0a80efcb#

 

I have to say I hadn't and that is really interesting. Not only that but it is a very credible source. I'm not sure if this is the first study to report this and if so it may take further studies to see if other researchers can replicate these results before it becomes "fact" so to speak. It certainly makes one rethink things. Without having read the full publication (rather than just the abstract )I am not sure of the mechanism by which the virus becomes aerosolized. The abstract still suggests that the virus, once inhaled, needs to be swallowed so at this point that suggests to me that short of accidently inhaling splashed vomit or even more unlikely faeces ( both an unpleasant thought) the risk would be low but I think more data will be needed.

 

I had always been lead to believe that the airborne transmission of Norovirus was a misconception but you learn something new every day.

 

As for the cruise lines I am confident that they will take whatever precautions are viable, based upon the evidence available to them at the time. It is not in their interest to ignore this, although as an earlier poster pointed out the statistical risk is still pretty low, especially with good/ enhanced hygiene practices.

 

Thanks for posting this BTW.

 

I am now going to wear a face mask, put Neosporin in every available orifice, avoid male passengers ( and cruisers from Chicago). Or maybe I'll spend all of my upcoming cruise in my cabin or verandah ( ah no I can't because of the darned cigarette smoke). Oh well I just better buy a bigger beverage package and insult my liver instead of worrying myself.

[Fizzer59]

In reply to Serendipity 1499. Thanks for your kind words but it seems that I am eating humble pie at present and may have been mistaken (although more studies are needed perhaps).

 

As far as I am aware, however, the viruses that cause respiratory tract infections only need to get to the respiratory tract, whereas gastrointestinal infections need to get into the GI system ( ie be swallowed). As Blue Mudshark pointed out, however there is still no evidence confirming airborne transmission at this time. However, if an individual with a cold sneezes and you inhale droplets then the virus is potentially in the right place to cause an infection.

[serendipity1499]

According to the abstract, the study indicates that the virus may be present as an aerosol (i.e. in the air), but it does not show any evidence of transmission of the viral disease via that mechanism. They showed that the virus may be detected in the air, not that anyone caught the disease by breathing that air.

 

Thank-you @Blue Mudshark. You are correct that the study showed that the virus was detected in the air and that the virus maintained its infectivity and integrity in the air. It did not state that folks could catch the virus in the air. My apologies. That was an incorrect assumption on my part.

 

cbr, IMO that would be a logical conclusion since the word "infectivity" means it is capable of causing an infection!

 

Blue Mudshark, They may not have documented anyone who caught the virus by air yet! But, the study clearly shows that there is a distinct possibility that the disease could be transmitted by air.. Are you willing to take that chance? :D

[serendipity1499]

In reply to Serendipity 1499. Thanks for your kind words but it seems that I am eating humble pie at present and may have been mistaken (although more studies are needed perhaps).

 

As far as I am aware, however, the viruses that cause respiratory tract infections only need to get to the respiratory tract, whereas gastrointestinal infections need to get into the GI system ( ie be swallowed). As Blue Mudshark pointed out, however there is still no evidence confirming airborne transmission at this time. However, if an individual with a cold sneezes and you inhale droplets then the virus is potentially in the right place to cause an infection.

 

No need for Humble Pie at all!!! I think we've all been very cordial & kind to each other & have learned a lot from this thread..

 

But, IMO Mrs. Fizzer better keep an eye on you.. You are just as funny as my DH is.. I have to keep an eye on him too!!;):D

 

LOL :D:D;)

[zerbot]

But how would that stop a cold which is a viral infection, not a bacterial infection?

 

The point of both the Neosporin and the Vaseline is to keep the nasal membranes from drying out (in the dry air on a plane). A properly moist nasal membrane is a very active and effective barrier to infection, bacterial, viral, or fungal. Neosporin is white petrolatum (generic term for Vaseline) with 3 antibiotics and an analgesic (topical pain relief):

 

Antibiotics: Bacitracin, neomycin, and polymixin B. These are all specifically targeted against bacteria, and completely ineffective against viruses. They are also all very nephrotoxic (cause kidney damage) and are thus only used intravenously or through inhalation (for bacterial pneumonia, for instance) in very desperate circumstances. Not at all effective against bacteria that dodge all of your natural barriers and get into the lungs. They are used in Neosporin because they are very effective against the sort of bacteria that cause skin infections. I urge everybody to use it for that, and please, please, please, don't just use it willy nilly and just contribute to bacterial resistance.

Edited May 6, 2015 by zerbot

[serendipity1499]

The point of both the Neosporin and the Vaseline is to keep the nasal membranes from drying out (in the dry air on a plane). A properly moist nasal membrane is a very active and effective barrier to infection, bacterial, viral, or fungal. Neosporin is white petrolatum (generic term for Vaseline) with 3 antibiotics and an analgesic (topical pain relief):

 

Antibiotics: Bacitracin, neomycin, and polymixin B. These are all specifically targeted against bacteria, and completely ineffective against viruses. They are also all very nephrotoxic (cause kidney damage) and are thus only used intravenously or through inhalation (for bacterial pneumonia, for instance) in very desperate circumstances. Not at all effective against bacteria that dodge all of your natural barriers and get into the lungs. They are used in Neosporin because they are very effective against the sort of bacteria that cause skin infections. I urge everybody to use it for that, and please, please, please, don't just use it willy nilly and just contribute to bacterial resistance.

 

Thanks for the explanation & Welcome to Cruise Critic Zerbot! :):)

[Lizzie68]

Honestly, when I read all this stuff I wonder what happened to using common sense, and.how the heck we managed to get through childhood, LOL.

[Blue Mudshark]

... They are used in Neosporin because they are very effective against the sort of bacteria that cause skin infections. I urge everybody to use it for that, and please, please, please, don't just use it willy nilly and just contribute to bacterial resistance.

 

Another reason: "Neosporin ointment is for external use only. Do not use in or near the eyes, nose, or mouth."

[Boytjie]

I am now going to wear a face mask, put Neosporin in every available orifice, avoid male passengers ( and cruisers from Chicago). Or maybe I'll spend all of my upcoming cruise in my cabin or verandah ( ah no I can't because of the darned cigarette smoke). Oh well I just better buy a bigger beverage package and insult my liver instead of worrying myself.

 

 

At least you can order room service - even from the MDR menu! :D

[Fizzer59]

True.......but there again who needs food when there is a balanced diet available in bottles. Every food group can be covered.

Egg ( protein )..... Advocaat

Potatoes ..... Vodka

Dairy...... Baileys

Greens..... Gordon's Gin

Fruit..... Spoiled for choice really. Apricot brandy, cherry brandy, crème de bananes etc etc

Seafood........ Clamato caesers

Grain.... Scotch or beer

 

And of course no meal is complete without wine to wash it down.

 

I mean when you have to limit your calories per day so why waste it on food. And of course if it gets on top of you and you get....well ill and moan a lot.... you can always pretend you're suffering from Norovirus.

 

Or seasick. Of course that latter is less believable if you try it before you've left your home port I would imagine.

[albingirl]

True.......but there again who needs food when there is a balanced diet available in bottles. Every food group can be covered.

Egg ( protein )..... Advocaat

Potatoes ..... Vodka

Dairy...... Baileys

Greens..... Gordon's Gin

Fruit..... Spoiled for choice really. Apricot brandy, cherry brandy, crème de bananes etc etc

Seafood........ Clamato caesers

Grain.... Scotch or beer

 

And of course no meal is complete without wine to wash it down.

 

I mean when you have to limit your calories per day so why waste it on food. And of course if it gets on top of you and you get....well ill and moan a lot.... you can always pretend you're suffering from Norovirus.

 

Or seasick. Of course that latter is less believable if you try it before you've left your home port I would imagine.

 

Seriously, the most noro I've seen is when I saw someone throwing up in the hall after drinking too much. It was disgusting.

[IndyDenise]

Seriously, the most noro I've seen is when I saw someone throwing up in the hall after drinking too much. It was disgusting.

 

 

So sorry about that.

[AV8rix]

Seriously, the most noro I've seen is when I saw someone throwing up in the hall after drinking too much. It was disgusting.

 

Eeewwww! I've never seen that. Oh wait, I suppose that's because I've never sailed on Carnival:D

[Fizzer59]

So sorry about that.

 

Tsk tsk. You naughty girl Denise.:D

[nschamp]

Noroviruses can spread by air up to several meters from an infected person, according to a study published in the latest issue of the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases. The findings suggest that measures applied in hospitals during gastroenteritis outbreaks may be insufficient to effectively contain this kind of infection.

 

Caroline Duchaine, Université Laval's Faculty of Science and Engineering and Québec Heart and Lung Institute (IUCPQ) Research Centre, Quebec City, Quebec, and colleagues conducted the study at 8 hospitals and long-term care facilities affected by gastroenteritis outbreaks. The researchers gathered air samples at a distance of 1 meter from patients, at the doors to their rooms, and at nursing stations.

Noroviruses were found in the air at 6 of the 8 facilities studied. The viruses were detected in 54% of the rooms housing patients with gastroenteritis, 38% of the hallways leading to their rooms, and 50% of nursing stations.

 

Virus concentrations ranged from 13 to 2350 particles per cubic meter of air. A dose of 20 norovirus particles is usually enough to cause gastroenteritis.

 

According to Dr. Duchaine, this previously unknown mode of norovirus propagation could explain why gastroenteritis outbreaks are so hard to contain.

 

“The measures applied in hospital settings are only designed to limit direct contact with infected patients,” said Dr. Duchaine. “In light of our results, these rules need to be reviewed to take into account the possibility of airborne transmission of noroviruses. Use of mobile air filtration units or the wearing of respiratory protection around patients with gastroenteritis are measures worth testing.”

Edited May 8, 2015 by nschamp

[Blue Mudshark]

Noroviruses can spread by air up to several meters from an infected person, according to a study published in the latest issue of the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases.

 

This study was mentioned earlier in this same thread.

 

The study found evidence that the virus can be present in aerosol form. The airborne virus particles can deposit on surfaces, from which a person can be infected. The study does NOT show any evidence of transmission by inhaling the viral aerosols.

 

The virus has to get into your digestive system to cause the disease, and so far, there's no evidence that happens from inhalation. It's possible that you could swallow the aerosol, but that possibility has not been observed in any clinical study.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Blue Mudshark

[sail7seas]

This study was mentioned earlier in this same thread.

 

The study found evidence that the virus can be present in aerosol form. The airborne virus particles can deposit on surfaces, from which a person can be infected. The study does NOT show any evidence of transmission by inhaling the viral aerosols.

 

The virus has to get into your digestive system to cause the disease, and so far, there's no evidence that happens from inhalation. It's possible that you could swallow the aerosol, but that possibility has not been observed in any clinical study.

 

Would a 'mouth breather' exposed to particles in the air have possibility of being infected by having those particles in their mouth due to their 'mouth breathing'? Would that be a conduit to swallowing the aerosol?

 

This is a 'for our information' question as I have no idea the answer.

Thanks.