John Heald from Carnival asking if service dogs should be allowed on a galley tour?

[Ex techie]

As much as I LOVE reading John Heald's Facebook page, I really think he has screwed up majorly asking this question.

Why is he asking his Guest's, not calling shoreside to speak to the people in the know?

 

He is the brand ambassador for Carnival and has started as crap storm on his FB page here:

https://www.facebook.com/JohnHeald

 

Some siting the ADA reg's that have exclusions regarding areas not open to the public, so restaurant kitchens ashore or galley's are an exception, others stating they would rather dogs do the galley tour than other Guest's.

 

Why on earth would you ask such a question on your Facebook page?

I like to read his musings, mostly open honesty, and enjoy his humor, sometimes I wish there were a DCL CD who had a page with Disney like humor posts as well.

 

Would you like a DCL CD to have a Facebook page?

Do you think he was right to ask this question or is his underwear too tight and the circulation to his brain been cut off? Oh FFS!

 

I'm sure not only the ADA shoreside crew should be asked, but also the CDC who inspect the ship for sanitary reasons.

 

Anyone?

 

ex techie

 

Edit to add:

 

Well, ummm…………..bugger.

Do I let the service dogs in the galley for the main galley tour that’s about to start?

I think I have to ……right?

What do you think?

A)Yes - let the dogs in

B)No - they should not be allowed

Please answer A or B

I have 15 minutes to decide. Help please

cheers

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ex techie

[moki'smommy]

Well first of all, he should KNOW the ADA regulations and follow them, not post something on Facebook seeking opinions from people who know nothing about the regulations.

 

If they are allowing people into the galley, my understanding is that they must allow a service dog. What exactly is the concern? While I have never done a galley tour on a Carnival ship, on DCL they are done after the lunch service has been cleaned up and before the dinner prep has begun. There is a large tray of freshly baked cookies at the end, but no other food in evidence. The kitchen will surely be "wiped down" after the tour before they begin dinner preparations as there are many hands that could have been on counters, etc. as people walked past. If the concern is bacteria, people carry more bacteria that can cause human disease than a dog does. If it is the risk of shedding (which is not eliminated by proper care and grooming), this should be covered by the necessary cleaning after the tour.

 

And if they are doing a tour, this is a public area for that brief period of time. I think they must let the dog in. This can't be the first time they've had a service dog on the ship.

 

As to a DCL CD posting on FB instead of seeking help from shoreside, I don't think they'd show their ignorance in that way.

[Ex techie]

As to a DCL CD posting on FB instead of seeking help from shoreside' date=' I don't think they'd show their ignorance in that way.[/quote']

 

Sorry, I've not been clear! I meant just a general blog on FB from a DCL CD. Not asking opinion in a case like this!

More so on thoughts about changes, recent updates, ask questions about your cruising habits.

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

I also agree that the galley has been opened to the general public, without them being needed to be checked by a Doc for any symptoms, so if the galley is properly cleaned down and sanitized after a troop of Guest's walking and touching their way through, I see no problem for service dogs. Not support or companion dogs though. The dog should be properly trained, otherwise if it poops or pee's, that is a whole other clean up situation.

 

Would the CDC trump the ADA?

 

ex techie

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ex techie

[moki'smommy]

Companion or emotional support dogs are a totally different situation than service dogs.

 

The service dogs that I am familiar with will eliminate only on command, so no issues there. But then, the service dogs that I have experience with are trained by well established programs; they are not household pets that an owner has tried to turn into a "service" animal.

 

Not sure how the CDC would be involved in this situation. If the tour has been somehow determined to be inappropriate for a service dog, I don't see how it can be permitted for guests. While not an expert, I'm not aware of any situation where a US health authority has determined that an area is off limits to a service dog.

[Ex techie]

Companion or emotional support dogs are a totally different situation than service dogs.

 

The service dogs that I am familiar with will eliminate only on command' date=' so no issues there. But then, the service dogs that I have experience with are trained by well established programs; they are not household pets that an owner has tried to turn into a "service" animal.

 

Not sure how the CDC would be involved in this situation. If the tour has been somehow determined to be inappropriate for a service dog, I don't see how it can be permitted for guests. While not an expert, I'm not aware of any situation where a US health authority has determined that an area is off limits to a service dog.[/quote']

 

I agree Companion or emotional support dogs are different and not classified as Service Animals, but we both know a quick Google search can provide the solution to both accreditation and Service Animal tabards unfortunately.

 

I would think that the CDC would class dogs or Service Animals as livestock and therefore they would be prohibited from food preparation areas. Obviously dog is not served on western cruises, maybe on some in Asia?, but that live animals are not allowed in the galleys, and therefore that would conflict with the ADA rules?

I understand and understood that the CDC took a special interest in cruise lines, and there were specific laws and standards for them to meet above land based inspections.

 

I also agree dander I agree is not a problem with proper cleaning.

 

One possible situation I can think of is when Jamie Oliver opened a kitchen in Huntingdon, WV, and LA. Those kitchen were open to everyone to come and learn to cook, so therefore also open to people with guide or other need animals?

 

One would hope that the easy solution isn't for Carnival to just stop galley tours.

I know DCL aren't fond of offering them.

 

I am still amazed that after so many years as a CD, John posed the question. He must have known what kind of 4 letter S word storm he would start on his FB page and divide so many of his Guest's and followers on what is the right answer.

 

Tell the Guest, sorry at this time we are unsure if we are permitted to allow your Service Animal into the galley and are actively searching council on this.

If your animal is not permitted by law or regulations, then sorry. That is the law, or the rules a ship has to sail by to meet XYZ regulations.

However, if your Service Animal is permitted, we would be delighted to offer you a private one on one tour with the Service Animal, and thank you for your patience with us as this is the first request of this kind we have had.

 

Thats not difficult.

Asking your Guest's what should the cruise line do legally and within regulations is! Not only that, it is embarrassing and shows no SOP for dealing with questions about ADA requirements at sea or training. The brand ambassador.

 

That is unless he knows he can, and is stirring the pot or gauging feedback.

 

I don't know. I like him as a figure head of Carnival for the most part. This seems like one of those things a politician would do. Not someone trained and so experienced.

 

ex techie

Edited October 13, 2015 by Ex techie

[goduckies05]

I think he posted it for conversation. He is a whoot. I wish my cruise i just got off of on DCL was half of as much fun as what john can make from his posts. All i heard was vacation dance vacation dance vacation dance. Boring.

Edited October 13, 2015 by goduckies05

[meatloafsfan]

I think he posted it for conversation. He is a whoot. I wish my cruise i just got off of on DCL was half of as much fun as what john can make from his posts. All i heard was vacation dance vacation dance vacation dance. Boring.

 

Sailing with John Heald is a hoot! He was on our Carnival Pride repositioning cruise this past March. Funny, personable, and did a few special shows/ Q&As that were very entertaining.

[Emperor Norton]

Well first of all' date=' he should KNOW the ADA regulations and follow them,...[/quote']

 

If only the majority of the "service dog" owners around here did that.

/this is my emotional support llama...

[skittl1321]

While I have never done a galley tour on a Carnival ship' date=' on DCL they are done after the lunch service has been cleaned up and before the dinner prep has begun. There is a large tray of freshly baked cookies at the end, but no other food in evidence. The kitchen will surely be "wiped down" after the tour before they begin dinner preparations as there are many hands that could have been on counters, etc. as people walked past. If the concern is bacteria, people carry more bacteria that can cause human disease than a dog does. If it is the risk of shedding (which is not eliminated by proper care and grooming), this should be covered by the necessary cleaning after the tour.

 

And if they are doing a tour, this is a public area for that brief period of time. I think they must let the dog in. This can't be the first time they've had a service dog on the ship.

[/quote']

 

I have no idea what the ADA/CDC's answer is on this. I know that service dogs can be excluded from some areas (such as if the person who is using the service animal would be preparing food). I would never answer such a poll question, because it isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of law.

 

However, when I did my galley tour with Carnival, it was part of the Chef's table experience, and dinner service was in motion. As in- food being prepared, waiters picking up meals and delivering them to tables. It was not a cleaned up, everything put away situation you describe from Disney's galley tours.

[cb at sea]

I bet 80% or more of cruisers have dogs as pets...and allow them in their kitchen....unless they leap up on the counter and start licking the food, I'm ok with it!

[john watson]

I bet 80% or more of cruisers have dogs as pets...and allow them in their kitchen....unless they leap up on the counter and start licking the food, I'm ok with it!

 

I think they are far more likely to sit down stick one leg up in the air and lick their private parts. Which makes me wonder why they have got a service dog.

 

Regards John

[NOSaints1]

I just told the two chaps who have been upset that we allow the service dogs in the dining room that while I understand their concerns they would not be receiving a free dinner at the Steakhouse.

 

They got very cross

 

They demanded that they speak to someone higher up than me.

 

My answer that we were required to allow service dogs in the dining room according to the America For Disabilities act and therefore they should speak to their congressman………..made them even crosser.

 

Was that unprofessional of me……………I really didn’t know what else to say.

 

Thoughts?

[moki'smommy]

Guess I don't understand the issue here. Under the law, a service dog is allowed in a restaurant or dining room. Period. This is a totally different discussion than the galley tour.

 

Generally a service dog would "fold up" and stay under the table and out of the way. Alternatively they might stay under or next to the person's chair.

 

While the "contact your congressman" remark is flippant, stating that this business, cruise line, or whatever will follow the law is the correct response.

[chengkp75]

Hey, techie;

 

Just home and have been watching this thread for a couple days before, but am too lazy to post from my phone. This may get long, as this is a topic that gets me going to some extent.

 

Let my first statement settle the whole matter of having a service dog in a galley: The ships are foreign flag, and once outside of US territorial waters, the ADA has absolutely no jurisdiction onboard.

 

Despite Carnival's settlement with the DOJ over the ADA, which I was very surprised to see (not the part about the number and types of cabins required to be accessible, which is needed), as this settlement, and the prosecution of it, flies in the face of the US Supreme Court decision of Specter v. NCL. In this decision, while the court did rule that the cruise lines had to adhere to certain aspects of the Act, without a clear mandate from Congress (emphasis mine), the internal operations of the ships falls outside the purview of the ADA. So, regardless of the comings and goings of Administrations and Department Secretaries, since Congress has not acted to include foreign flag ships explicitly in a revision of the ADA, there is no binding reason that a cruise ship must accommodate someone with a service dog in any manner.

 

To mokismommy; just because the ship accommodates a service dog in public areas, does not mean that they need to do so in non-public spaces, any more than they need to accommodate a service dog or a person in a wheelchair for the ship tours that specify closed shoes, and the ability to climb steep stairs. Non-public spaces, like high-rise maintenance and HVAC plants are not required to be ADA compliant, even when those areas are opened on limited basis to whomever the building owner wants to show those areas.

 

Techie, you mention Jamie Oliver's restaurants, but the major difference is that the restaurant is on US soil, while the galley is on foreign soil. It's not that the CDC would trump the ADA, but that the ADA does not apply.

 

Moki; to compare the hygiene of a person to the hygiene of an animal is just nonsense, saying that if the dog couldn't be there, then the people couldn't either?

 

As for CDC regulations regarding service dogs, there generally aren't any, per se. The USPH's Vessel Sanitation Plan is designed to meet the USPH's mandate (to prevent contagious disease from entering the US from foreign ships while accommodating the business model of the cruise industry (new passengers and a new voyage every week). Without the VSP, which was designed by both the USPH and the cruise industry, the USPH has the right to question every passenger disembarking a foreign vessel, and to inspect that vessel every voyage for poor hygiene. By use of the VSP, the USPH says that if you follow these rules, and allow random inspections, we certify the ship as having good hygiene and will not question the passengers or inspect the vessels weekly.

 

Dogs, like people, carry diseases on them. USPH requirements are designed to control the spread of diseases that are transmitted by humans. Animals are a different thing, and therefore should not be allowed into food preparation areas.

 

We had an instance of a service dog becoming anxious when its owner was in the pool away from the edge, and jumped into the pool. This becomes a prima fascia case of fecal contamination, and the pool had to be closed, drained, and sanitized.

 

As for allowing service dogs in the restaurants, again, while in international

waters, it is up to the cruise line to allow or disallow.

[moki'smommy]

Hey, techie;

 

 

As for allowing service dogs in the restaurants, again, while in international

waters, it is up to the cruise line to allow or disallow.

 

This is the only part of your post that I question. In many instances, if the service dog were not allowed in the restaurant, the person needing the dog wouldn't be able to be there either. It may be a point that those needing a service dog would have to be clear on before choosing to cruise as if the dog is banned, the only alternative would be a week of room service.

 

You are probably right that it is up to the cruise line to allow or disallow, but the consequences of disallowing are great for the guest. On land, the dog would be allowed in the restaurant.

[chengkp75]

This is the only part of your post that I question. In many instances' date=' if the service dog were not allowed in the restaurant, the person needing the dog wouldn't be able to be there either. It may be a point that those needing a service dog would have to be clear on before choosing to cruise as if the dog is banned, the only alternative would be a week of room service.

 

You are probably right that it is up to the cruise line to allow or disallow, but the consequences of disallowing are great for the guest. On land, the dog would be allowed in the restaurant.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying that the cruise lines refuse the service dogs access in restaurants, but to say that even cruise staff quoting the ADA as the reason that it is allowed is false. As I've stated, because they have to meet most of the ADA while docked in the US or in US waters, they find it easier to continue to accommodate the needs of the handicapped. I'm also saying that everyone claims that the ADA applies everywhere and on every ship; it doesn't. Compliance for the most part is voluntary.

 

You will see the same in threads about river cruises in Europe, where people complain that the ships are not totally accessible, and many places where they dock, wheelchair or scooter access is impossible. This is again because the US law does not cover foreign ships in foreign countries.

 

There are cruise ships that call in US ports that have public spaces that are not accessible. I've heard of bars/lounges on the top decks that are only accessible via stairs. The Court ruled in Specter that the ships are not required to make major structural changes just to meet the ADA.

 

As you say, on land the service animal is allowed, because that is US soil, but the ship is different. The only cruise ship that must comply completely with the ADA is NCL's Pride of America, since it is a US flag ship.

[Ex techie]

Hey, techie;.

 

Thanks for the clarification and actual rules Chief!

 

I had hoped you would step in and say it as it is!

 

ex techie

[moki'smommy]

I'm not disagreeing with your point that the ships do not have to comply. WDW and DCL have always been ahead of the norm in handicapped access.

 

In part, I think we tend to get used to the way things are in the US and come to expect it without realizing that the rest of the world may not be so easy. For example, the UK has laws very similar to the ADA. And just like in the US, buildings that were built before the law was passed are exempt until the point where they may undergo major renovations. And there is the difference--in the US, we tend to tear down old buildings and/or remodel on a regular basis; a new or newly remodeled building must meet ADA requirements. In the UK, they tend to keep their old buildings. Remodeling/repurposing will often not include any exterior changes. So while many public buildings, businesses, etc. are wheelchair accessible, others are not. This is a particular problem at the tube stations. Very few of the stations are "step free" from the train to the exit.

 

But I fear that I've gotten far off the original topic. I can't speak to Carnival's policies regarding service dogs or HA access. I do know that DCL is very good to great in their accessibility.

[Ex techie]

I'm not saying that the cruise lines refuse the service dogs access in restaurants, but to say that even cruise staff quoting the ADA as the reason that it is allowed is false. As I've stated, because they have to meet most of the ADA while docked in the US or in US waters, they find it easier to continue to accommodate the needs of the handicapped. I'm also saying that everyone claims that the ADA applies everywhere and on every ship; it doesn't. Compliance for the most part is voluntary.

 

You will see the same in threads about river cruises in Europe, where people complain that the ships are not totally accessible, and many places where they dock, wheelchair or scooter access is impossible. This is again because the US law does not cover foreign ships in foreign countries.

 

There are cruise ships that call in US ports that have public spaces that are not accessible. I've heard of bars/lounges on the top decks that are only accessible via stairs. The Court ruled in Specter that the ships are not required to make major structural changes just to meet the ADA.

 

As you say, on land the service animal is allowed, because that is US soil, but the ship is different. The only cruise ship that must comply completely with the ADA is NCL's Pride of America, since it is a US flag ship.

 

The ADA is a well meaning, but so poorly written piece of legislation that it is a joke.

How can a law allow someone to just say I need this, and the person not have to provide proof, to protect that persons privacy and people not exploit that?

And then there are the aggressive people that love to spout the ADA law but have no clue where and what it applies to. And also so dumb to think that American law applies WORLDWIDE to everything.Their ignorance astounds me when I read their posts.

 

I know mokismommy has travelled extensively in Europe with her disabled daughter, and has reasonable and learned expectations of what other countries offer and provide in terms of handicapped accessibility.

 

And people have said why not build and operate flagged cruise ships out of America? I wonder why with so many flawed legal loopholes and labor restrictions.....

Yet most Americans would want to cruise!

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

Chief,

 

On NCL do they allow emotional support dogs under the "banner" of Service Animals even though they are explicitly deemed NOT Service Animals?

 

this is the MAJOR problem I have with the ADA and Service Animals.

 

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

 

And people will not exploit that for their own benefit at all....

 

ex techie

[moki'smommy]

Honestly, taking a service animal on a cruise ship is a lot of effort. You first must provide the cruise line with the necessary documents for each country that will be visited. Seems like a small thing until you realize that each port may have different requirements. The EU has made things easier with their "pet passport" program, but that documentation is not universally accepted. Then, taking a medium to large sized dog on a plane is not easy. Yes, the airlines are GREAT, but planes are small to begin with.

 

Then you get to deal with the passengers who have not been taught that this is a "working dog" and they should not approach, pet, call to, or in any way distract or interact with the dog without the owner's permission. Some owners can allow you to pet or otherwise interact with their dog while others cannot or will not. It depends on what the dog does for them as well as whether they are so inclined. Just being out of their normal environment becomes a chore.

 

I'm sure there are people who will exploit the situation and call "Fluffy" the emotional support pet a "service dog," but when you look at the work involved it is probably not worth the effort.

 

Please don't misunderstand me. My daughter gains great benefits from her cats. They provide comfort, joy, emotional support, and something that is depending on her. On a really bad day, they may be the only reason to get out of bed--the cats are depending on her for food...but no way are they "service animals."

[Ex techie]

I think the abusers have this down pat.

They have the doc's ready, they know how to take fluffy the pooch on a cruise because they just cannot bear to be parted for them for a week, and the boarding kennels are just so expensive.

 

The actual proper users of Service Animals under the ADA know the drill and have to comply with the regulations. They are importing an animal into often a foreign country, and therefore realise the issues that can raise and understand why.

 

The abusers are quite happy to allow others to pet their "Service Animal", feed it at the table and become aggressive when questioned as to why they have one. The real Service Animal users like this one are responsible and only allow their Service Dog to interact when appropriate and on their down time.

 

 

I honestly think the paperwork is nothing to some just to have the privilege and be seen with their pooch is enough to motivate them to do it.

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

Hey, techie;

 

Let my first statement settle the whole matter of having a service dog in a galley: The ships are foreign flag, and once outside of US territorial waters, the ADA has absolutely no jurisdiction onboard.

 

Despite Carnival's settlement with the DOJ over the ADA, which I was very surprised to see (not the part about the number and types of cabins required to be accessible, which is needed), as this settlement, and the prosecution of it, flies in the face of the US Supreme Court decision of Specter v. NCL. In this decision, while the court did rule that the cruise lines had to adhere to certain aspects of the Act, without a clear mandate from Congress (emphasis mine), the internal operations of the ships falls outside the purview of the ADA. So, regardless of the comings and goings of Administrations and Department Secretaries, since Congress has not acted to include foreign flag ships explicitly in a revision of the ADA, there is no binding reason that a cruise ship must accommodate someone with a service dog in any manner.

 

As for allowing service dogs in the restaurants, again, while in international

waters, it is up to the cruise line to allow or disallow.

 

I am still dumbfounded that someone who had risen up the ranks of Carnival Cruise Line to Senior Cruise Director, and now Ambassador, does not fully know the CDC, USPH and VSP, USCG and ADA regulations properly, and would refer to his Facebook followers for advice, over those that are shoreside, and make this public.

As I said in my first post, I enjoy his posts, but when it comes to ship protocols and laws, he seems as clueless as when he first bluffed his way in to being hired as a bartender and since has used humor to escalate up the chain of command.

In retrospect, I KNOW of a few at DCL that have kissed the behinds of some shoreside to get promotions to be shoreside and still have cushy jobs despite being totally incompetent and useless.

 

ex techie

[chengkp75]

As much as I would like to protect US citizens' rights and lives by promoting US flag ships, the prices that would need to be charged for covering the additional expenses would dry up the cruise industry in the US immediately.

 

While I did not see any "emotional support" animals while at NCL, given the inability to question the service provided by the animal, I'm sure there were some, and are some today. I did see a Capucin monkey that was used to remind a person when she had forgotten to take a medication.

 

I think you've hit it on the head regarding false service animals, people are so self-centered that any amount of money or trouble to get the immigration paperwork done to allow their pet to accompany them is worth it.

 

As for John Heald, I can't figure out if he is truly clueless, or an inveterate pot-stirrer.