Diving age discrimination

[RDC1]

I would like to point out once again that I COULD dive with the dive shop if I had not booked through HAL. Also, I did dive other excursions booked through HAL. No one has been able to address this or explain it. Why can I dive with Dive Friends Bonaire unless I am with HAL? Why can I dive with HAL except when I dive with Dive Friends Bonaire?

 

It would be interesting to see someone address this point. Believe me I would feel better knowing why.

 

HAL requires their vendors to carry liability insurance of a certain level. They do not specify which insurance company the vendor chooses. The amount the vendors pay for insurance is impacted by the restrictions they put on who they will service. I would suspect that the vendor selected a policy with tighter restrictions for their policy that covers cruise line passengers in order to save money on those policies. With those age restrictions they can still fill their capacity from the cruise lines.

 

For those customers that do not come through the cruise line they do not have to have the same level of liability insurance. As such they can reduce costs by lowering the dollar level of coverage, and have wider age levels.

 

By doing it this way they can cut their insurance costs, fill their excursions from the cruise lines and be able to attract more customers when the ships are not in port.

 

Other vendors have made other decisions. That is why you encounter the differences. The vendors state the limits, HAL does not. HAL does requirement the dollar level for the liability insurance.

 

Another vendor may be willing to pay more for their policy or may be in an area where there is more policies available.

[Culbles]

Many other posters did address this point but you chose to ignore them..

 

It was pointed out to you, that it might be an Insurance Company rule, since HAL is NOT the only company which has this restriction.. RCCL & Princess also have the same restrictions..

 

Why not just admit you made an error by not reading the rules before you booked...Instead of accusing HAL of discrimination why don't you write to all the companies involved & ask them for the reason..

 

Another Poster mentioned, the Diving stats show more deaths in the over 60 age than any other age group, & he was surprised that the age was not lowered to 60, but you chose to ignore this post too..HAL can't make exceptions based on just one person who might be perfectly healthy..

 

I really don't think there is any more for us to say, as you still will not admit that you made an error, by not reading the restrictions when you booked the tour..

Yes several posters have used "might" and "maybe" about the insurance. But no one has been able to explain it. If I go to the same dive shop without HAL I can dive. How do you explain the insurance connection here? I would really like to know as would some other readers I'm sure.

 

The people at Holland America can't explain it either. They say I would be blocked from all dives or allowed on all dives. We found this out when inquiring why the excursion wasn't refunded. So the saga continues.

[Culbles]

HAL requires their vendors to carry liability insurance of a certain level. They do not specify which insurance company the vendor chooses. The amount the vendors pay for insurance is impacted by the restrictions they put on who they will service. I would suspect that the vendor selected a policy with tighter restrictions for their policy that covers cruise line passengers in order to save money on those policies. With those age restrictions they can still fill their capacity from the cruise lines.

 

For those customers that do not come through the cruise line they do not have to have the same level of liability insurance. As such they can reduce costs by lowering the dollar level of coverage, and have wider age levels.

 

By doing it this way they can cut their insurance costs, fill their excursions from the cruise lines and be able to attract more customers when the ships are not in port.

 

Other vendors have made other decisions. That is why you encounter the differences. The vendors state the limits, HAL does not. HAL does requirement the dollar level for the liability insurance.

 

Another vendor may be willing to pay more for their policy or may be in an area where there is more policies available.

Here we go. The first poster that has a reasonable post about the insurance.

 

Thank you.

[Jade13]

Given that HAL knows the ages of passengers, the system should automatically reject bookings that do not meet age requirements. If I read that the age limit was 65 but was allowed to book anyway, I'd be frustrated, too.

 

Agree

[hrhdhd]

Accountability, like charity, should begin at home. If his wife had caught the restriction, there would have been no issue, no disappointment and no finger pointing.

 

It is a shame that it happened but the fault shouldn't be passed on to HAL for not catching HER error.

 

The more the cruise line can do to dummy-proof their systems, the better. Then, regardless of who's at fault, they wouldn't have an angry customer, they wouldn't have to issue refunds, and they wouldn't have to deal with the issues for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, quite a few posters on here don't like excursion systems (i.e., on Princess) that allow passengers to reserve excursions without paying for them because they may or may not take them. Why not set the system up so that people who won't be allowed to take an excursion can't reserve/buy it?

 

You can believe the OP, his wife, the gods, someone, is at fault AND still think it's a good idea to program the system intelligently to avoid these issues in the future.

[cccole]

I also thank RDC1 for the explanation. I did not understand why HAL's insurance carrier made a maximum age limit of 65 in Bonaire when it was not a port wide policy, and the vendor did not have the same limit. I thought that there was possibly something about the dive involved on Bonaire that raised a red flag for them. Thank you RDC1. And, usually if you are on a cruise ship that has a contract with a vendor you cannot book independently. I have arranged dive excursions for my husband and sons all around the world and was curious as to the reason for Hal's decision. Cherie

[smokinmike]

Yes I am truly, would you like to see my C card ? :rolleyes:

 

I know that every dive shop has the option to set whatever rules it wants. Yes you fill out a waiver but apparently some also feel that age is a factor. Having been on some north of 100 dives as a DM I get their point. It is a means to weed out folks with higher potential for problems. I one time had to pull a 70 year old back on to the boat as he was having heart problems. Luckily he turned out to be all right but he initially had stopped breathing. So, I get why they may want to minimize their risk.

 

You are to be commended for utilizing your training and for being able to think and act appropriately to effect the rescue of a troubled senior diver. You have provided an excellent example of one of the many hazards facing scuba divers and a great example of how proper training can be used to mitigate those hazards. I'm sure that you have also in your past diving experience, in your capacity of DM or not, run across divers in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's who, either through lack of physical conditioning, being over-weight, over-zealous or merely under-experienced, have put themselves and others in harm's way. Age itsel,f as I'm sure you know, is not necessarily the determining factor in any one diver's personal assessment of personal risk.

 

Also, as an aside, would you care to name any dive operators in the southern US, the western, eastern or the southern Caribbean of whom you are personally aware that set an upper age limit for certified scuba divers? I'm 64 years old so this proscription does concern me.

 

Thanks again for proving what good training can accomplish in a situation that requires it.

[dakrewser]

I also thank RDC1 for the explanation. I did not understand why HAL's insurance carrier made a maximum age limit of 65 in Bonaire when it was not a port wide policy, and the vendor did not have the same limit. I thought that there was possibly something about the dive involved on Bonaire that raised a red flag for them. Thank you RDC1. And, usually if you are on a cruise ship that has a contract with a vendor you cannot book independently. I have arranged dive excursions for my husband and sons all around the world and was curious as to the reason for Hal's decision. Cherie

 

1) we don't know that it was HAL's decision, do we?

2) we've had lots of speculation, but no one with actual knowledge, about the reasons for the limitation.

3) excursion tickets do not have names printed on them. Its quite possible for one person to purchase an excursion to be used by someone else (as the OP's wife did). I've done that for my children and grandchildren. While the tix are delivered to me, on board, they can be used by anyone. Of course, the user must meet the qualifications. For that reason I'd be very upset at any cruise line which blocked me from making that purchase.

4) bottom line, the OP's wife overlooked the prominently displayed limitation on the excursion. No one hid anything, no one discriminated against anyone.

5) The OP states the age requirement was printed on the ticket, but he didn't become aware until he was at the dive shop and they refused to let him dive. I find it hard to believe that he never read the ticket until after he was denied.

6) The problem with the refund could be that he actually went on the expedition (i.e., rode the bus to the dive shop). It's an interesting legal point.

[cccole]

dakrewser - I assume that your points 1-6 are not directed at me. Re your point (1) it would be bothersome to me to think that a cruise line would let someone else set their excursion requirements, but whatever.

 

We have only done one dive excursion through a cruise line and that was because of the time limitations in port and the divers in our party were collected from and brought back to the ship which was in a tender port. I have never booked a dive for my husband and sons and not given their names and other important info, and then handed the reservation to someone else. But, as I have said, I have only done a dive excursion through a ship once.

 

And, I think that the OP indicated in a previous post that he noticed the age limitation on the excursion ticket after boarding the ship but did not think he needed to address the situation with the shore excursion desk. And, I think that he has now indicated that that was possibly not the best decision.

 

This has been a thread for many of us to remember to know exactly what we are purchasing. JMO Cherie

[RDC1]

dakrewser - I assume that your points 1-6 are not directed at me. Re your point (1) it would be bothersome to me to think that a cruise line would let someone else set their excursion requirements, but whatever.

 

We have only done one dive excursion through a cruise line and that was because of the time limitations in port and the divers in our party were collected from and brought back to the ship which was in a tender port. I have never booked a dive for my husband and sons and not given their names and other important info, and then handed the reservation to someone else. But, as I have said, I have only done a dive excursion through a ship once.

 

And, I think that the OP indicated in a previous post that he noticed the age limitation on the excursion ticket after boarding the ship but did not think he needed to address the situation with the shore excursion desk. And, I think that he has now indicated that that was possibly not the best decision.

 

This has been a thread for many of us to remember to know exactly what we are purchasing. JMO Cherie

 

The vendor is who usually sets limits, not the cruise line. Now that is not to say that the cruise line does not have the ability to have input. After all the vendor has to submit a bid to the cruise line and the cruise line can accept or reject that bid (if the limits do not meet their requirements). But the vendor is the one that has the liability and sets the limits.

[Caribbean Chris]

Hmmm... A few years ago we also found out (after sailing) that a booked shore excursion was not what we had expected. Cost me almost $30.00 :eek: to log onto the HAL internet, research alternatives and book one. (Almost 20 minutes of my time!)

 

AND a few years before that,we were on the Veendam with a short scheduled stop at Port Stanley. So short that there was not time to do Volunteer point and the penguins. The night before we arrived (in the middle of the south atlantic) the captain came on and said that we were running ahead and would be there for 4 more hours. Again to the computer, and a quick booking which turned out to be the best shore excursion I have ever done... (And that was on a HAL computer in the middle of the atlantic. )

 

No sympathy from me.

 

I've been thinking the same. I edited an entire 100-page magazine via the onboard internet connection in 2009 in the middle of the Atlantic. Alternate tour arrangements would have been a walk in the park. I would have cancelled my shore excursion, found another dive option online, and fired off an email.

[cccole]

The vendor is who usually sets limits, not the cruise line. Now that is not to say that the cruise line does not have the ability to have input. After all the vendor has to submit a bid to the cruise line and the cruise line can accept or reject that bid (if the limits do not meet their requirements). But the vendor is the one that has the liability and sets the limits.

 

Thank you, in this case the vendor was o.k with divers 65+ booked through them directly, but did not have liability for them? So...if the cruise line wants to use them they need to have an age limit. Is this not the cruise line deciding to go with that vendor instead of a vendor that has liability insurance for divers 65+ on a ship excursion? I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I am just trying to understand why HAL chose this vendor. It seems like HAL and it's insurance providers decide who they do and do not do business with. Possibly there is no vendor who will contract with a cruise line in Bonaire and provide liability insurance for divers 65+. Thanks for trying to help me understand liability issues which may come to use in a couple years. Cherie

 

p.s. I'm just used to making sure we have insurance for everything that might come up and we sign our lives away on waivers, whether it is for diving, zip lining, atv'ing, snorkeling, etc. Because of signing your life away I have never thought of vendors being responsible unless it was gross negligence.

Edited January 7, 2016 by cccole

[smokinmike]

Thank you, in this case the vendor was o.k with divers 65+ booked through them directly, but did not have liability for them? So...if the cruise line wants to use them they need to have an age limit. Is this not the cruise line deciding to go with that vendor instead of a vendor that has liability insurance for divers 65+ on a ship excursion? I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I am just trying to understand why HAL chose this vendor. It seems like HAL and it's insurance providers decide who they do and do not do business with. Possibly there is no vendor who will contract with a cruise line in Bonaire and provide liability insurance for divers 65+. Thanks for trying to help me understand liability issues which may come to use in a couple years. Cherie

 

p.s. I'm just used to making sure we have insurance for everything that might come up and we sign our lives away on waivers, whether it is for diving, zip lining, atv'ing, snorkeling, etc. Because of signing your life away I have never thought of vendors being responsible unless it was gross negligence.

 

 

My advice is to get DAN insurance, book your dive op on your own and forget about any cruise ship dive op. If the port times are sketchy - find something else to do. Bonaire is a place you can go back to and stay for weeks.

[dakrewser]

And, I think that the OP indicated in a previous post that he noticed the age limitation on the excursion ticket after boarding the ship but did not think he needed to address the situation with the shore excursion desk. And, I think that he has now indicated that that was possibly not the best decision.

 

Well, what the OP said (in post #1) was: "At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip." Which could be interpreted two ways: either the OP didn't know of the restriction before that or he did but chose to ignore it. Neither is an adequate reason for yelling "discrimination" at the cruise line.

[Boytjie]

5) The OP states the age requirement was printed on the ticket, but he didn't become aware until he was at the dive shop and they refused to let him dive. I find it hard to believe that he never read the ticket until after he was denied.

 

No, he actually became aware of it on the ship when he saw the excursion tickets. He said he could not make alternate plans while at sea and chanced it by going to the dive shop to see if the dive shop would reconsider.

 

Yes I contributed to my own disappointment in that I did not know of the restrictions until after we had booked the excursions and set sail. Ever tried to change things in the middle of the ocean? I ventured to see if they would overlook the limitation. Well they certainly allowed over weight people to dive because they wouldn't put the customer on the SCALES.

[cccole]

My advice is to get DAN insurance, book your dive op on your own and forget about any cruise ship dive op. If the port times are sketchy - find something else to do. Bonaire is a place you can go back to and stay for weeks.

 

Will keep DAN in mind for dive trips, we always make sure we have insurance that covers the most extraordinary accidents because you never know!!! We've never been to Bonaire but...you never know. Thanks for the advice, Cherie

[RDC1]

Thank you, in this case the vendor was o.k with divers 65+ booked through them directly, but did not have liability for them? So...if the cruise line wants to use them they need to have an age limit. Is this not the cruise line deciding to go with that vendor instead of a vendor that has liability insurance for divers 65+ on a ship excursion? I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I am just trying to understand why HAL chose this vendor. It seems like HAL and it's insurance providers decide who they do and do not do business with. Possibly there is no vendor who will contract with a cruise line in Bonaire and provide liability insurance for divers 65+. Thanks for trying to help me understand liability issues which may come to use in a couple years. Cherie

 

p.s. I'm just used to making sure we have insurance for everything that might come up and we sign our lives away on waivers, whether it is for diving, zip lining, atv'ing, snorkeling, etc. Because of signing your life away I have never thought of vendors being responsible unless it was gross negligence.

 

No it is not.

 

As I explained earlier Cruise lines have a number of requirements for their vendors that those vendors might not otherwise have.

 

One of those is a specific dollar value of liability insurance. Depending upon that policy there might be specific limits, such as age limits. The vendor might purchase the policy with such age limits to save money. Since the cruise line does the marketing and brings him the customers they can fill their capacity. So the age limit save him money and they still run full.

 

Now for walk up customers they do not have to have the high dollar liability insurance, they can go with a cheaper policy or maybe even no policy at all, depends upon the country, its laws, the size of the business etc. In those cases where a high value liability policy is not required they can lower the coverage amount and increase the age limit to be able to appeal to more customers when the cruise ships are not in port and their capacity is used.

 

That is why you might see a difference from the same vendor for cruise line business and walk up business. They have a different set of requirements they have to meet for each segment of business. To some it might be enough to have different limits on the participates.

[KirkNC]

I'm sure that you have also in your past diving experience, in your capacity of DM or not, run across divers in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's who, either through lack of physical conditioning, being over-weight, over-zealous or merely under-experienced, have put themselves and others in harm's way. Age itsel,f as I'm sure you know, is not necessarily the determining factor in any one diver's personal assessment of personal risk.

 

Absolutely, and it goes beyond physical factors. My experience was off Nags Head NC were it tends to be rough and visibility at times could be non-existent. We would occasionally disqualify a diver if they had limited (or very dated) experiences. The classic would be someone who had gotten certified recently, had only dove off Florida (i.e. clear water), never worn a ¼ inch wet suit or hoody, never dove below 40-50 feet yet wanted to do an open water wreck dive on the U-85 which topped out at 110 feet. We would say no. Was that discrimination, I don’t know but we may have been saving their lives.

 

Also, as an aside, would you care to name any dive operators in the southern US, the western, eastern or the southern Caribbean of whom you are personally aware that set an upper age limit for certified scuba divers? I'm 64 years old so this proscription does concern me.

 

No, I am only 58 so it is not an issue yet ;)

[Culbles]

Absolutely, and it goes beyond physical factors. My experience was off Nags Head NC were it tends to be rough and visibility at times could be non-existent. We would occasionally disqualify a diver if they had limited (or very dated) experiences. The classic would be someone who had gotten certified recently, had only dove off Florida (i.e. clear water), never worn a ¼ inch wet suit or hoody, never dove below 40-50 feet yet wanted to do an open water wreck dive on the U-85 which topped out at 110 feet. We would say no. Was that discrimination, I don’t know but we may have been saving their lives.

 

 

 

No, I am only 58 so it is not an issue yet ;)

I have not run into any dive operator anywhere but Bonaire that questioned my age. I dive routinely every year and make many dives. In 2015 I made three diving trips to Florida (Atlantic, Keys, and caves/caverns). I have run into all of the situations you list but never "age". I have called dives because of rough seas or because I didn't feel right. In Florida and the Keys 40-50 dives are not Advanced dives. The dive industry is now referring to 60 foot and deeper as Advanced diving. To dive some of the wrecks (Spiegel Grove, Oriskany, etc) you must be an Advanced diver. Not considered "discrimination".

[Culbles]

1) we don't know that it was HAL's decision, do we?

2) we've had lots of speculation, but no one with actual knowledge, about the reasons for the limitation.

3) excursion tickets do not have names printed on them. Its quite possible for one person to purchase an excursion to be used by someone else (as the OP's wife did). I've done that for my children and grandchildren. While the tix are delivered to me, on board, they can be used by anyone. Of course, the user must meet the qualifications. For that reason I'd be very upset at any cruise line which blocked me from making that purchase.

4) bottom line, the OP's wife overlooked the prominently displayed limitation on the excursion. No one hid anything, no one discriminated against anyone.

5) The OP states the age requirement was printed on the ticket, but he didn't become aware until he was at the dive shop and they refused to let him dive. I find it hard to believe that he never read the ticket until after he was denied.

6) The problem with the refund could be that he actually went on the expedition (i.e., rode the bus to the dive shop). It's an interesting legal point.

Our excursion tickets were delivered to our stateroom in an envelopes. Each ticket had the individual's name on it. The diving tickets for the grandson and myself and another envelope for my wife's excursions. Dive shop was within walking distance of the ship (2-3 blocks).

[Culbles]

Yes I am truly, would you like to see my C card ? :rolleyes:

 

I know that every dive shop has the option to set whatever rules it wants. Yes you fill out a waiver but apparently some also feel that age is a factor. Having been on some north of 100 dives as a DM I get their point. It is a means to weed out folks with higher potential for problems. I one time had to pull a 70 year old back on to the boat as he was having heart problems. Luckily he turned out to be all right but he initially had stopped breathing. So, I get why they may want to minimize their risk.

Nothing in my post here is untrue. Every DM or Instructor knows the age limits as it is part of your course training. And you would know all about insurance and all of the forms to be completed.

 

As to your having to help one 70 year old, stuff happens. I was on a diving trip in Hawaii where the DM jumped into the rough water to help someone and wrapped a rope around her arm. The boat was bobbing up and down in the rough seas and jerked her and she died. They stopped diving Molokini, Maui until it was cleared up. Stuff does indeed happen and not just to someone over 65. If you continue to be a DM you will end up helping a lot of divers and they will not all be old people. With just north of 100 DM dives you are very new to the business. If you continue your advancement you will end up with 1000s of dives and no telling how many times you will have had to help someone.

[Culbles]

I have not run into any dive operator anywhere but Bonaire that questioned my age. I dive routinely every year and make many dives. In 2015 I made three diving trips to Florida (Atlantic, Keys, and caves/caverns). I have run into all of the situations you list but never "age". I have called dives because of rough seas or because I didn't feel right. In Florida and the Keys 40-50 dives are not Advanced dives. The dive industry is now referring to 60 foot and deeper as Advanced diving. To dive some of the wrecks (Spiegel Grove, Oriskany, etc) you must be an Advanced diver. Not considered "discrimination".

I also have been in 7mm and dry suits. I have also been in the very cold water of the San Juan Islands in the Pacific Northwest. I have been to 130 feet in the Bahamas. I dive with 20 and 30 year olds. No I can't keep up with them for endurance but I certainly can do recreational diving with them.

 

What I am trying to point out here is that I am a knowledgeable, healthy, and fit diver with plenty of training and experience. The only problem was "age".

[Culbles]

Nothing in my post here is untrue. Every DM or Instructor knows the age limits as it is part of your course training. And you would know all about insurance and all of the forms to be completed.

 

As to your having to help one 70 year old, stuff happens. I was on a diving trip in Hawaii where the DM jumped into the rough water to help someone and wrapped a rope around her arm. The boat was bobbing up and down in the rough seas and jerked her and she died. They stopped diving Molokini, Maui until it was cleared up. Stuff does indeed happen and not just to someone over 65. If you continue to be a DM you will end up helping a lot of divers and they will not all be old people. With just north of 100 DM dives you are very new to the business. If you continue your advancement you will end up with 1000s of dives and no telling how many times you will have had to help someone.

Just a note: if a DM does not keep up their insurance they can't fill the roll as a DM. Same applies to instructors. Also, Medic First Aid and Rescue divers must requalify every so often. A person may have a DM certification card but if the insurance and medic certification is not current they are not a DM.

 

This again does not address the "age" issue of the original post.

 

Merrian-Webster defines it as: a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment.

[Culbles]

But it's only wrong if there's a law against it, otherwise why isn't it age discrimination not to let a 10 year old drink or drive.

Doesn't everyone wish she had just read the posted notice on the bus and set in the back of the bus.

 

Merriam-Webster defines as: a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment.

[Culbles]

What we have here is a good discussion about a good topic as evidenced by all of the replies. It has been suggested that we let this thread die. That may be a good idea because a few are stuck on a repeating "I can't read" (me) which does not address the original issue/comment.

 

I do not have a problem letting this thread die because I have accomplished what I set out to do: give other cruisers some valuable information that they may use on future cruises. If they read the excursion description and make their plans accordingly then again I have accomplished what I set out to do. Advise future travelers.

 

A few replies are stuck on none issues but several posters have said they will be more attentive when booking excursions on HAL or any other cruise. The thread has brought out some good information including the description of the excursion and the insurance explanation.

 

All of the naysayers can blame me for the one dive in Bonaire and I am sorry I stepped on their loyalist HAL toes. So let this thread die and future cruisers can read for themselves and see that there are limits they must be aware of in order to take full advantage of their cruise.

 

Happy sailing everyone.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Culbles
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