Phony Formalism

[peterv]

Peter,

I really don't want to get involved in any of this, so I'll make this short and move on... Yes, Carpathia did help in the rescue of the "Titanic." Capt. Rostron from the "Carpathia" was honored in 1912 by the U.S. Senate for his rescue efforts. I'll leave it at that.

Happy Sailings and I'm out of here...LOL :)

Cheers to you as well...

Lifes2Short ;)

 

I know that the Carpathia rescued the survivors of the Titanic. My comments were in reference to yours about your grandparents missing the Titanic and taking the Carpathia instead and being onboard when it rescued the Titanic survivors.

 

It would be physically impossible for them to miss the Titanic because they were sick and be on the Carpathia during the rescue. The Carpathia was either in New York or approaching New York from the Med. when the Titanic set sail from Southampton. If your grandparents were to have missed the Titanic sailing, they could not possibly have gotten to New York in order to be on the Carpathia, unless they either flew or had a teleporter.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[halos]

I don't think adhering to a formal dress code has anything to do with being a snob. .

 

 

Absolutely!

Being a snob would be looking at someone dressed in a suit or tux and turning up your nose because it wasn't an expensive enough suit/tux...THAT is snobbery...

When you dress informally on a formal night it's not a social expectation you aren't meeting, it's a disrespect you are showing.

JMO.

[rferr]

These threads are hilarious. The funniest part is that the only place anyone cares is here. Once you are on the ship its a non-issue.

[tbelian]

Once you are on the ship its a non-issue.

 

This is SO true.

[peterv]

Peter,

Sorry, I didn't get a chance to finish this clarification earlier. I was in a bit of a hurry.....:eek:

If you go back and read my original post, it stated they were to sail the Titanic but it didn't say "maiden voyage." I think that's where you might be confused? They were in England waiting to sail the Titanic back to New York. That's where the Carpathia came in as I explained in my original post. My grandfather helped w/the rescue efforts(over 700 passengers rescued) and took incredible photos of the survivors. It wasn't a topic they liked to discuss because of the tragedy involved. They kept an oil painting of the "Titanic" hanging in a spare room in their home out of respect for the lives lost and a reminder of how "fragile life can be." It was a somber time...

Hope this helps..... :)

Happy Sailings! ;)

 

Thanks for the additional information, but my comments still hold true.

 

I think the story you were told was embellished over the years.

 

They could not have been in England at the time the Titanic sailed, and then been on the Carpathia. The Carpathia was not doing New York Southampton voyages, it was doing New York - Med voyages, and at the time of the Titanic's maiden voyage the Carpathia was on the other side of the Atlantic. If they had been in the US instead of the UK, then they still couldn't miss the Titanic because they were sick, the Carpathia left before the Titanic would have arrived if it did not sink first.

 

One couldn't miss the Titanic and take the Carpathia instead because they were on opposite sides of the ocean, and sailing different itineraries.

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but I am a ship buff.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Ma Bell]

These threads are hilarious. The funniest part is that the only place anyone cares is here. Once you are on the ship its a non-issue.

 

It's interesting that you would comment since you have never sailed with Celebrity and you "don't get into formal night and stay in your cabin eating lobster." Hilarious:D :D Definitely a non-issue for you.

[WeBeCruisin']

Once you are on the ship its a non-issue.

 

More fallacious reasoning. The comments that the pro-dress code adherents (who, incidentally, DO constitute a vast majority, based upon CC threads and polls) are making are based upon their experiences and their feelings while ON ships. The cruiseline's "issue" with it is based upon what they have very clearly made obvious as to what they want to see ON their ships. If it were a "non" issue on the ship, then none of us would be commenting on it, would we? :rolleyes:

 

And, before you try to play the tired and weak card "but CC members only make up a small percentage of cruisers.... wahhhh!!!!......", try to comprehend that even if CC members are a small percentage, 95 per cent of them respectfully follow the dress code. As to all the non-CC cruisers, you don't have a clue as to what they are thinking, so they are an invalid indicator of "popular" opinion. You "me, me, me" people really ought to try to think things out a little better before you start your whining and attacks against those who are respectful enough of their fellow passengers to follow the cruiseline's requirements.

 

Just because other passengers are too civilized and polite to get in your face or confront you or tell you what they think of your inconsideration and rudeness, doesn't mean they aren't thinking it or commenting among themselves. And just because the cruiseline doesn't keep you from entering the dining room also doesn't mean they have no problem with you violating their clearly-stated policies and that it is a "non-issue" with them.

 

This kind of arrogance knows no bounds, does it?

 

Allen

[rferr]

More fallacious reasoning. The comments that the pro-dress code adherents (who' date=' incidentally, DO constitute a vast majority, based upon CC threads and polls) are making are based upon [i']their [/i]experiences and their feelings while ON ships. The cruiseline's "issue" with it is based upon what they have very clearly made obvious as to what they want to see ON their ships. If it were a "non" issue on the ship, then none of us would be commenting on it, would we? :rolleyes:

 

And, before you try to play the tired and weak card "but CC members only make up a small percentage of cruisers.... wahhhh!!!!......", try to comprehend that even if CC members are a small percentage, 95 per cent of them respectfully follow the dress code. As to all the non-CC cruisers, you don't have a clue as to what they are thinking, so they are an invalid indicator of "popular" opinion. You "me, me, me" people really ought to try to think things out a little better before you start your whining and attacks against those who are respectful enough of their fellow passengers to follow the cruiseline's requirements.

 

Just because other passengers are too civilized and polite to get in your face or confront you or tell you what they think of your inconsideration and rudeness, doesn't mean they aren't thinking it or commenting among themselves. And just because the cruiseline doesn't keep you from entering the dining room also doesn't mean they have no problem with you violating their clearly-stated policies and that it is a "non-issue" with them.

 

This kind of arrogance knows no bounds, does it?

 

Allen

 

Very dramatic!

[rferr]

It's interesting that you would comment since you have never sailed with Celebrity and you "don't get into formal night and stay in your cabin eating lobster." Hilarious:D :D Definitely a non-issue for you.

 

I know but its so hard to resist a good formal vs. non-formal flame war. We have them on the Princess board every week as well....

[WeBeCruisin']

Very dramatic!

 

Sometimes truth IS dramatic. :)

[rferr]

Sometimes truth IS dramatic. :)

 

 

Maybe you can slap me with a white glove and challenge me to a duel! Pistols at 25 paces!

[WeBeCruisin']

Maybe you can slap me with a white glove and challenge me to a duel! Pistols at 25 paces!

 

But only if we both wear tuxedos.

[tbelian]

More fallacious reasoning.

 

Allen,

 

Not necessarily. It really IS a non issue. Why? Because as you also pointed out, and is born out by the ship board experience, those who comply with the dress code far out number those who don't. If the majority is in fact in suits and tuxes on formal night, what's the problem? The fact is, there ISNT a problem, except for here.

 

That's my interpretation of it being a 'non issue'.

[WeBeCruisin']

Allen,

 

Not necessarily. It really IS a non issue. Why? Because as you also pointed out, and is born out by the ship board experience, those who comply with the dress code far out number those who don't. If the majority is in fact in suits and tuxes on formal night, what's the problem? The fact is, there ISNT a problem, except for here.

 

That's my interpretation of it being a 'non issue'.

 

Good point, tbelian. Looks like we were each looking at different sides of the somewhat ambiguous "non-issue" coin. :)

 

Allen

[Lifes2short]

I know that the Carpathia rescued the survivors of the Titanic. My comments were in reference to yours about your grandparents missing the Titanic and taking the Carpathia instead and being onboard when it rescued the Titanic survivors.

 

It would be physically impossible for them to miss the Titanic because they were sick and be on the Carpathia during the rescue. The Carpathia was either in New York or approaching New York from the Med. when the Titanic set sail from Southampton. If your grandparents were to have missed the Titanic sailing, they could not possibly have gotten to New York in order to be on the Carpathia, unless they either flew or had a teleporter.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Peter,

I tried to go back and edit my previous post when I realized I got the locations turned around and wasn't able to do so.

Carpathia was neither in or approaching New York at the time of the sinking of the "Titanic." She was approximately 60 miles away from the "Titanic" when it received the first distress signal. That's why I mentioned the honors bestowed upon the Captain. He made a decision to turn around and rush to the rescue of the "Titanic" instead of ignoring it and continuing his voyage as planned. He knew he was taking a risk by not knowing what would await him from his superiors by making such a decision. They say the Captain didn't hesitate after receiving the first distress call and pushed the Carpathia to get to the survivors a.s.a.p..

My grandparents kept all of the documents/tickets etc. with their names clearly printed on them. They even kept a menu that was sent to them of the food that would be served while on-board.

Our family has held on these documents and will continue to do so. My grandfather kept the photos he took in a box stored in his attic until his passing. They didn't want the photos to be seen or glamorized by others. They were never sold and never will be. That was his wish and one we will always honor. I've seen those photos firsthand, you never forget them....

To see the pain and faraway look on my grandparents face when they rarely spoke of the incident made me wish they were just "embellishing" as you stated, because it was a painful memory they never forgot.

Hope this helps!

[Lifes2short]

I know that the Carpathia rescued the survivors of the Titanic. My comments were in reference to yours about your grandparents missing the Titanic and taking the Carpathia instead and being onboard when it rescued the Titanic survivors.

 

It would be physically impossible for them to miss the Titanic because they were sick and be on the Carpathia during the rescue. The Carpathia was either in New York or approaching New York from the Med. when the Titanic set sail from Southampton. If your grandparents were to have missed the Titanic sailing, they could not possibly have gotten to New York in order to be on the Carpathia, unless they either flew or had a teleporter.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Peter,

I tried to go back and edit my previous post when I realized I got the locations turned around and wasn't able to do so.

Carpathia was neither in or approaching New York at the time of the sinking of the "Titanic." She was approximately 60 miles away from the "Titanic" when it received the first distress signal. That's why I mentioned the honors bestowed upon the Captain. He made a decision to turn around and rush to the rescue of the "Titanic" instead of ignoring it and continuing his voyage as planned. He knew he was taking a risk by not knowing what would await him from his superiors by making such a decision. They say the Captain didn't hesitate after receiving the first distress call and pushed the Carpathia to get to the survivors a.s.a.p..

My grandparents kept all of the documents/tickets etc. with their names clearly printed on them. They even kept a menu that was sent to them of the food that would be served while on-board.

Our family has held on these documents and will continue to do so. My grandfather kept the photos he took in a box stored in his attic until his passing. They didn't want the photos to be seen or glamorized by others. They were never sold and never will be. That was his wish and one we will always honor. I've seen those photos firsthand, you never forget them....

To see the pain and faraway look on my grandparents face when they rarely spoke of the incident made me wish they were just "embellishing" as you stated, because it was a painful memory they never forgot.

Hope this helps!

[nu2sea]

More fallacious reasoning. ...

 

And' date=' before you try to play the tired and weak card "but CC members only make up a small percentage of cruisers.... wahhhh!!!!......", try to comprehend that even if CC members are a small percentage, 95 per cent of them respectfully follow the dress code. As to all the non-CC cruisers, you don't have a clue as to what they are thinking, so they are an invalid indicator of "popular" opinion. You "me, me, me" people really ought to try to think things out a little better before you start your whining and attacks against those who are respectful enough of their fellow passengers to follow the cruiseline's requirements.

 

Just because other passengers are too civilized and polite to get in your face or confront you or tell you what they think of your inconsideration and rudeness, doesn't mean they aren't [i']thinking[/i] it or commenting among themselves. And just because the cruiseline doesn't keep you from entering the dining room also doesn't mean they have no problem with you violating their clearly-stated policies and that it is a "non-issue" with them.

 

This kind of arrogance knows no bounds, does it?

 

Allen

 

On one formal night on the Infinity, a couple at our table came to dinner, she in a black sweater and slacks, and he in a casual shirt (no tie), sports jacket and slacks. Although their attire did not bother the rest of us, it clearly bothered them.

 

As they told it, their TA never mentioned any dress code, and being from a small Oregon coastal town were they rarely wore any formal attire, it never occurred to them that they would need it on an Alaskan cruise.

 

In their case it was ignorance and not arrogance that caused their inappropriate dress. And perhaps that is why I felt bad for them, as dining in the Casual Boulevard also never occurred to them. New to cruising, they were clearly one of the many "non-CC cruisers."

 

They were, obviously, admitted to the dining room. But their case has taught me to be careful in reacting to others who do not dress. While it is true that many of those inappropriately dressed do so knowingly, willingly and yes, even arogantly, some really didn't know and are probably feeling out of place already.

 

On the other hand, they are not the people who come on this board to suggest that my DH and I are snobs because we do dress for formal dinner. Dressing for dinner tends to make an occassion of a meal and being the household cook, I enjoy the opportunity to treat a dinner as more than a chance to refuel.

 

And Caviargarl, I am sorry that the Mercury did not achieve better compliance with its own code during your cruise. I trust you mentioned it on your comment card. We, who appreciate the dress code, have to make our feelings known, loud and clear. You can bet that those in favor of a relaxed code do, and I'm sure they do it often!

 

Susan

[pennstater]

As they told it, their TA never mentioned any dress code, and being from a small Oregon coastal town were they rarely wore any formal attire, it never occurred to them that they would need it on an Alaskan cruise.

 

In their case it was ignorance and not arrogance that caused their inappropriate dress. And perhaps that is why I felt bad for them, as dining in the Casual Boulevard also never occurred to them. New to cruising, they were clearly one of the many "non-CC cruisers."

 

They were, obviously, admitted to the dining room. But their case has taught me to be careful in reacting to others who do not dress. While it is true that many of those inappropriately dressed do so knowingly, willingly and yes, even arogantly, some really didn't know and are probably feeling out of place already.

 

Susan

 

Very well said, Susan. I tried to make this same point early on in this thread, but not nearly as eloquently.

 

Although seasoned cruisers may know there are dress codes and how to best adhere to them on the ship, there are many times that a new cruiser would not have a clue. For example, we booked our cruise on-line, and on-line TA's do zippo beyond taking your $$$. One would have to make additional contact with Celebrity (ie, check out the website) to know this info prior to getting the cruise docs. And, once one has the cruise docs, I can certainly see that this info could be missed.

 

For us, DH has lots of cruise experience and thus knows about the dress codes--but, on my first cruise with his family (river cruise, not big-ship) he just assumed this was a known fact and it didn't come up in conversation until we had reached our embarkation city--I sure had to scramble to make some last minute purchases!

 

So, my wish to everyone, please don't be quick to place judgement and consider the many circumstances and motives (or lack of motives) that could be present at your dining venue. While there are those that surely know the dress codes and choose to disregard it, there are also those that don't have the knowledge and experience to be aware of the dress codes prior to their cruise.

[Ma Bell]

These threads are not about people who don't know any better, the objection is to those who have the attitude that they will purposely defy the cruiseline and do as they please. I've never seen a passenger on board say anything to another passenger about what they were wearing. We've seen occasions when passengers were turned away at the door for not dressing properly and we've seen times where nothing is done. The whole point is that to purposely ignore the request of the cruiseline is rude to them and to the others who comply. Plain and simple.

[stowaway2k]

I know that the Carpathia rescued the survivors of the Titanic. My comments were in reference to yours about your grandparents missing the Titanic and taking the Carpathia instead and being onboard when it rescued the Titanic survivors.

 

It would be physically impossible for them to miss the Titanic because they were sick and be on the Carpathia during the rescue. The Carpathia was either in New York or approaching New York from the Med. when the Titanic set sail from Southampton. If your grandparents were to have missed the Titanic sailing, they could not possibly have gotten to New York in order to be on the Carpathia, unless they either flew or had a teleporter.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Don't know why this discussion is found on this thread, but you are positively, absolutely correct Peter!

 

There were no passengers on the Carpathia when she went to the rescue of Titanic survivors because they had 'missed' the Titanic.

 

These known facts make it kind of unlikely:

 

Titanic departed Southampton, England April 10, 1912 bound for New York.

Carpathia departed New York, USA April 11, 1912 bound for Gibraltar and the Mediterranean.

 

How can anyone who 'missed' the Titanic's sailing of April 10 in Southampton therefore be aboard the Carpathia in New York on April 11?

 

As the Titanic was not due to arrive in New York unitl April 16, what does being aboard the Carpathia on April 11 bound for the Med. have to do with missing the Titanic, even if the 'missed' sailing in question was Titanic's New York-Southampton departure of April 20 or 21 which never happened?

 

I supposed someone could 'miss' the April 20/21 departure that never happened because the ship sank and never arrived in the first place, but that still does not explain being aboard Carpathia in New York on April 11 because they 'missed' the Titanic.

 

The story of being aboard Carpathia as she rescued those from Titanic because they missed the Titanic makes no sense, and the facts of these two ship's departure times are easily found by anyone with internet access.

 

Any claims to being aboard the Carpathia in New York on April 11 because of missing the Titanic, means having prior knowledge that the Titanic was never going to sail from New York ten or eleven days later.

 

Another point against this claim is that the Carpathia's destination was the Med., and the Titanic's would have been Southampton. If your destination was England, and you missed your departure, why would you want to go to Gibraltar or Naples instead?

 

Sorry for the off topic rambling...I just found this interesting and had to put my $.02 in.

 

Now, back to clothing snobbery...

[Lifes2short]

The reason this discussion is on this thread is because Peter had a question from a previous post and asked about it on this forum. You'll have to ask him why? :confused:

The thread continues as long as you/Peter/I keep responding to it. :rolleyes: So, I will graciously bow out of this discussion "permanently" after briefly addressing some of your comments so everyone can get back to the dress code forum. This will be my very last response re: this matter/subject.

You stated there were no passengers aboard the Carpathia when she went to rescue the passengers of the Titanic. Yes, of course there were passengers, many who gave eye-witness accounts of the tragedy.

You/Peter mentioned the Carpathia sailing "only" the Med. No, she didn't just sail the Med. She started out sailing from Liverpool to N.Y. then eventually sailed the Med. w/repositioning cruises from places such as Boston/N.Y. to Liverpool. So, as to no more rambling(myself included) ;) hopefully, the rest is self-explanatory from previous posts.

Your rambling is forgiven and I'll be happy to refund you your $0.02 worth since your $0.02 worth is about equal to my $0.02 worth. ;)

Happy Sailings to you all....:)

[stowaway2k]

You stated there were no passengers aboard the Carpathia when she went to rescue the passengers of the Titanic.

 

No, I didn't. I said there were no passengers on the Carpathia who were there because of missing the Titanic.

Meaning none of Carpathia's passengers were sailing Carpathia because they had missed their Titanic sailing. I believe that is the core of the debate.

 

 

You/Peter mentioned the Carpathia sailing "only" the Med. No, she didn't just sail the Med. She started out sailing from Liverpool to N.Y. then eventually sailed the Med. w/repositioning cruises from places such as Boston/N.Y. to Liverpool.

 

Sorry, but I never said "only". Your word, not mine. I did say that the Carpathia was sailing to the Med at the time of the Titanic's sinking, I didn't claim she "only" sailed to the Med.

 

 

So, as to no more rambling(myself included) ;) hopefully, the rest is self-explanatory from previous posts.

Your rambling is forgiven and I'll be happy to refund you your $0.02 worth since your $0.02 worth is about equal to my $0.02 worth. ;)

Happy Sailings to you all....:)

 

It's a deal, and a bon voyage to us all.

[Cruise Arizona]

I have always been interested in the Titanic, I think since I saw the movie about it, the old black and white one with Robert Wagner maybe?? "A Night to Remember" or something like that.

 

Anyway, I am still confused about your Grand Parent's trip:

 

Were they delayed in leaving New York?, and had to postpone their trip by a couple of weeks, and heance leaving on the Carpathia going East, the same time they would have been returning home if they had kept thier original Plans??? That to me would explain it all.

[turtlemichael]

This is very weird. In Goth circles, Titanic is code for tuxedo and Carpathia is code for open neck shirt, sandals and jeans. Hmmm Very weird :D

 

Now, where are my pills?

[pennstater]

These threads are not about people who don't know any better, the objection is to those who have the attitude that they will purposely defy the cruiseline and do as they please. I've never seen a passenger on board say anything to another passenger about what they were wearing. We've seen occasions when passengers were turned away at the door for not dressing properly and we've seen times where nothing is done. The whole point is that to purposely ignore the request of the cruiseline is rude to them and to the others who comply. Plain and simple.

I see that the vast majority of the back and forth is precisely as you state--those that profess their right for dressing-down and those that find this disrespectful. However, at least one person recently posted a comment about their observations, and disappointment, in the onboard dress code adherence. Since it is impossible to know a stranger's reason for dressing down when one simply sees them onboard, I wanted to address this from that angle. It is easy to read about someone's motive for dressing less than formal here on the boards, but on the ship, obviously, it's much less cut-and-dry. I'm sure that no one here would make another passenger feel uncomfortable for their attire, either by verbal or non-verbal responses--I just wanted to remind people here, while onboard the ship, to not judge too quickly as some dressed-down people may simply not know the dress codes ahead of time.

 

That's all--I'm not trying to preach but I know what it is like to be in such a position and it can be embarrassing when you would have gladly dressed up, had you known.

 

OK--I'm stepping off the soapbox now...:)