Phony Formalism

[sportsguy7]

I am 62 and my wife is a little younger. We are both retired and I seldom have the need to wear a suit. We have been on numerous cruises before including your exalted X and HAL among several others including Radisson which on the pecking order is higher than your beloved X. Two years ago, we were on Radisson for the Christmas cruise and the cruise fare was about three times what I paid for this cruise. BTW, out of 11 nights, I believe there were two fomal nights and on the others some people wore jackets and ties and others wore attractive casual ware.

 

I was an insurance executive in Manhattan for 31 years and always wore a suit to work. When I retired and formed a consulting firm with a friend, we told our prospective clients that we would not wear ties, not as an insult to them, but rather as our decision. You know what? Our firm is quite successful and we still don't wear ties.

 

That said, we are going with a group of eight people who selected this cruise SOLELY because of the convenience of departing from Bayonne, alleviating the need to fly to the ship, since we all live in Central Jersey.

 

I had absolutely no idea that I would need to wear a jacket and tie six out of the 12 nights until our ticket package arrived. I will give X three formal nights but have no intention of wearing a jacket and tie on any other nights. I paid a fair amount of money for my vacation and do not intend to be harrassed or in any way treated in any manner that I consider objectionable solely because I elect to wear casual clothing when a jacket and tie is SUGGESTED. If you stuffed shirts judge me on my dress on those three informal nights, then you are indeed small minded. And no I will not skulk to the elevator to find a part of the ship where no one will raise their noses at me.

 

I see this as no slight to those who feel the need to wear formal attire.

 

I wish to dine in the dining room with my companions and if we are asked to leave the dining room, not only will I never sail on X again, but the company will be on the receiving end of a lawsuit for harrassment since the passage ticket contains no language obligating me to adhere to a SUGGESTED dress code.

 

Get real people and lower your noses. Dress does not make the man. If you feel otherwise shame on you.

 

I don't know whether I should feel sorry for you or just laugh at what you consider important.

[Cruise Arizona]

"Celebrity Cruises' elegant, formal evenings include the Captains Welcome Cocktail Party and Dinner, The Captains's Farewell Dinner and a third "formal night for those cruises sailing more than seven nights. The daily program, delivered to your statefroom and available at the Guest Relations Desk, will be your guide to the appropriate attire each evening.

 

On Casual Nights, choose from the following:

Pantsuit or sporty outfit for women

Sports shirt and slacks for men.

 

On Informal Nights, the following is proper wear:

Dress or pants outfit for women

Jacket, shirt and tie for men

 

On Formal Nights, you'll want to be seen in:

Cocktainl dresses or long gowns

Dinner jackets and Dark Suits

Tuxedo."

_______________________________

 

Didn't see the word "suggested" in a my travel docs, but I did see the word appropriate.

[sportsguy7]

Appropriate does not mean required. I believe appropriate is closer in meaning to suggested than abolutely necessary.

I do not mean to be a trouble maker.I am actually a pretty nice guy, I think. I just take exception to snobs who admit they are snobs and who force others to adhere to standards that are not absolute in requirement.

Hey, we will still have a pretty good cruise weather permitting.

 

Thanks for the info tho!

[curly14]

I think that as you age you realize that there are more important things to consider than the clothes one wears. Most of us over 50 yrs and especially those retired from prestigious jobs where we had to wear formal attire a lot no longer feel clothes are of primary importance. My DH and I are for more interested in being healthy and having fun with those around us. We have had some of the best tablemates you could ever ask for. Travel and just enjoy while you have your health. Celebrity is in business; they want your money in exchange for a good time. We cruise mainly to meet people and learn of other cultures.

Clothes do not make the man.

[Cruiser31]

As I read through some of these posts, I want to burst out in laughter at how serious some people are taking themselves and something as simple as a dress code. How someone's attire could ruin another's dining experience and/ or vacation is beyond me. Who cares what other people wear? The people who have something to prove and who are insecure with themselves are the ones that have a problem with what others are wearing. It's simple....if you don't like what someone else is wearing, don't look at them!

Everyone should just stop focusing on what other people are wearing and do what they came on the cruise to do....relax and have a good time.

[hermang]

I am 62 and my wife is a little younger. We are both retired and I seldom have the need to wear a suit. We have been on numerous cruises before including your exalted X and HAL among several others including Radisson which on the pecking order is higher than your beloved X. Two years ago, we were on Radisson for the Christmas cruise and the cruise fare was about three times what I paid for this cruise. BTW, out of 11 nights, I believe there were two fomal nights and on the others some people wore jackets and ties and others wore attractive casual ware.

 

I was an insurance executive in Manhattan for 31 years and always wore a suit to work. When I retired and formed a consulting firm with a friend, we told our prospective clients that we would not wear ties, not as an insult to them, but rather as our decision. You know what? Our firm is quite successful and we still don't wear ties.

 

That said, we are going with a group of eight people who selected this cruise SOLELY because of the convenience of departing from Bayonne, alleviating the need to fly to the ship, since we all live in Central Jersey.

 

I had absolutely no idea that I would need to wear a jacket and tie six out of the 12 nights until our ticket package arrived. I will give X three formal nights but have no intention of wearing a jacket and tie on any other nights. I paid a fair amount of money for my vacation and do not intend to be harrassed or in any way treated in any manner that I consider objectionable solely because I elect to wear casual clothing when a jacket and tie is SUGGESTED. If you stuffed shirts judge me on my dress on those three informal nights, then you are indeed small minded. And no I will not skulk to the elevator to find a part of the ship where no one will raise their noses at me.

 

I see this as no slight to those who feel the need to wear formal attire.

 

I wish to dine in the dining room with my companions and if we are asked to leave the dining room, not only will I never sail on X again, but the company will be on the receiving end of a lawsuit for harrassment since the passage ticket contains no language obligating me to adhere to a SUGGESTED dress code.

 

Get real people and lower your noses. Dress does not make the man. If you feel otherwise shame on you.

 

I don't know whether I should feel sorry for you or just laugh at what you consider important.

 

That is all I wanted to convey when I opened the post and titled it Phoney Formalism. Like you I grew up wearing Suit and Tie to the office only to hang the jacket up in my office and not wear it unless I was out with a customer. IT has fortunately become Business casual. My original point was this - I will bring a Jacket and tie and depending on the time of the year maybe even the Penguin suit but it should be MY CHOICE to wear it. No I wont wear jeans and a T shirt on formal night but after dinner - what's wrong with getting comfortable. Again thanks or bring sanity to the conversation

[Cruise Arizona]

Just curious, what do you consider "appropriate" for a wedding or a funeral?

[Cruise Arizona]

I am trying to rise above the BS but I keep letting my self be dragged into the mudd.

[Ma Bell]

In most circumstances I completely agree with those who don't feel the need to dress up. What someone is wearing doesn't particularly bother me. I do, however think it is ignorant and rude to call people snobs because they do what is requested by the cruiselines. It's just common courtesy to abide by the rules. If you don't care to do that fine, but drop the holier than thou attitude. It doesn't make you cool and clever, it just makes you wrong.

[Cruiser31]

Just curious, what do you consider "appropriate" for a wedding or a funeral?

Are you actually compairing a cruise to a wedding or a funeral?

As far as your mud comment, not only are you dragging yourself through the mud, you should be covered in it for making such an absurd comparison.

[C 2 C]

There is class and there is crass... dress where you belong and be done with it.

 

(Definition of crass,devoid,ascetic,mediocre,facetious ...

Definition of crass (adjective) stupid; dull; insensitive; materialistic; rude;

ill-mannered ...)

[Cruise Arizona]

This was the only true time I allowed myself to be dragged through the mud, when I as for no reason thrown into the tug of war mud pit. I was litterally digging mud out my earls for two weeks. However. I was appropriately dressed at the time.

[sportsguy7]

Ma Bell:

 

Please scroll through the first few pages of this ridiculous thread and you will see how many people call themselves snobs and are proud of it.

 

Incidentally, I plan on wearing new tasteful sport shirts with comfortable slacks on non formal nights.

[Ma Bell]

I'm sure you understand that they are just reacting to being called snobs. I know you paid for your vacation. I know you wore shirts and ties for work. I know you like to be comfortable, most people do. The whole point is that the cruiseline has a dress code. You don't have to like it but it's there, plain and simple. Those that conform to the dress code are doing what is right. Those that don't can do all the justifying they like...it's still wrong. I'm sure these people would never say anything to anyone who was not dressed according to the "requirement, "request, "suggestion".

 

Hopefully you will never be asked to leave the dining room or show room. It might be kind of embarrassing. There's no way you would prevail in a lawsuit...I'm sure you know that. I hope no one thinks you are a snob because you find it necessary to talk about how much you pay for cruises on the upper crust cruiselines. Bad form you know.

 

Now do you see how silly the diatribe was? If I went on a cruise where business casual was the norm and then tried to convince everyone that they should dress formally anyway, I'd be way off base. Being snobbish works both ways.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

Ma Bell,

 

That was an accurate and to the point statement of the position many of us have regarding dress code.

[cruising with marti]

Sportsman7

 

A retired Insurance executive from NY? That sure explains a lot of things, evidentently, you have forgotten about manners and showing a little class. by that, I mean showing respect for your hosts ( the cruise line) and your fellow pax.

 

Geeze, what are we supposed to do, fall over because you were an excutive, and the over usesd excuse, that you paid for this cruise and you will dress as you dammed well please.

 

Oh, and I liked the reference, to your cruise on that higher priced cruise line. wow, that really impressed me:cool:

 

Phil

[babylene]

The topic is PHONY FORMALISM..and if we want to be honest...that is what it is. My husband and I don't mind getting dressed up...it's the extra suitcase that's the killer. Before our last cruise, I bought some inexpensive, easy to pack PHONY FORMALWEAR at Chico's. That helped. My husband, however, needs to take a tux (or suit,which would take up the same space) and sport jacket. He complains every time we pack. (Please don't suggest he rent....he won't!)

 

He wears a suit and tie every day...well..Mon-Fri!. I can understand a man who complains about getting dressed up on his vacation. However, it is fun, once you are there.

 

Remaining dressed all evening...We are late diners, so we would not have time to change even if we wanted to. Those who wish to...there is casual and there is casual....Shorts and a t shirt may stand out...but nice shirt and pants would blend in (especially since some men remove their jackets anyway). If posters would make "creative suggestions" instead of slamming people, we could have some more interesting and diverse reading here!

 

Public areas...it is not reasonable to expect diners who dressed casual for the alternative restaurant to hide. I think it is very amusing to talk to someone dressed to the nines at 5pm while I am still in very casual mode. If anyone would be insulted because I am in a bathing suit and they are dressed....well there is nothing I can say about that!

 

I laugh when I read all your references to "rules" and "respect". Sorry, but the last reason I would consider would be "dress rules". ..on a vacation! As for "respect"...to me there are far more important aspects of respect, which I don't think I have to list here...but I am willing to bet that many of the "fashion police" are lacking in those areas!

 

I read comparisons to weddings and host/guest relationships. Sorry, I don't buy that. In our community, weddings are galas, way more formal that Celebrity...invitations state "black tie"...however, ultimately someone shows up totally underdressed....so what....who cares...probably that poor soul feels uncomfortable...why would anyone self-respecting person want to make him/her fell worse?

 

For those who say...choose another line...friends went on Oceania...supposedly more casual...(that is not why they chose it). People dressed elegantly.

 

I don't know why I am so fascinated with these posts...I guess it is because so many people think so very differently from the way I do. Wanting to respond to so many of your comments...I know I am rambling!!!

 

At this moment, I am asking myself...should I hit the reply button...or forget about it...............................................................her goes!!!!

 

 

 

I

[tbelian]

Get real people and lower your noses. Dress does not make the man. If you feel otherwise shame on you.

 

I don't know whether I should feel sorry for you or just laugh at what you consider important.

 

Well, how you feel about me is irrelevant (to me), but, would you care to know how I feel about you after reading your post?

[peterv]

My grandparents were to sail the "Titanic" and had to cancel at the last minute due to illness. They wound up on the "Carpathian" where my grandfather helped rescued and later took photos(photo. buff)of the passengers being rescued from the "Titanic." We still have their tickets/photos in a safe deposit box. I can't help but wonder what they would think about the "ships" today?

 

I hate to point out a slight mistake, but the Titanic was on a westbound crossing to New York when she sank, the Carpathia on the other hand was on an eastbound voyage to the Mediterranean when she went to the Titanic's rescue. If your Grandparents were to sail on Titanic, but got sick, then they couldn't possibly have taken the Carpathia instead, as she was either in New York or about to enter New York after a westbound crossing form the Med when the Titanic sailed from Southampton.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[WeBeCruisin']

I am 62 and my wife is a little younger. We are both retired and I seldom have the need to wear a suit.

I was an insurance executive in Manhattan for 31 years I paid a fair amount of money for my vacation and do not intend to be harrassed or in any way treated in any manner that I consider objectionable solely because I elect to wear casual clothing when a jacket and tie is SUGGESTED.

I wish to dine in the dining room with my companions and if we are asked to leave the dining room, not only will I never sail on X again, but the company will be on the receiving end of a lawsuit for harrassment since the passage ticket contains no language obligating me to adhere to a SUGGESTED dress code.

t.

 

This post is typical of the kind which are so frustrating and irritating. You just want to grab this type of person and shake some sense into them.

 

Several of these types of posts have boasted about how they're in their 60s and retired and are therefore entitled to do anything they want. I'm in that demographic and, unfortunately, there is a very, very sad tendency for people, as they get older, to become more and more inflexible and narrow-minded and self-centered. For the above poster and so many others in my age group, it becomes solely about "me, me, me" and they are so very rude, obnoxious and irritating about it. And, although I have lived in New York and New Jersey, an inordinate number of these "me, me, me" people are from that area. That's sad, too.

 

I've tried not to respond to these types of posts lately, but the arrogance, self-centeredness, and boorishness of Sportsguy7 and his rude insults to people who have the consideration to follow the "appropriate" dress code and his characterization of them as "stuffed shirts" and snobs is pathetic. It makes me sick to my stomach. I feel pity for people like him, but I'm also so very embarrassed that so many Americans are becoming like Sportsguy7. If there's a bright side, I guess that it's that, fortunately, only about five per cent of them cruise.:(

 

Allen

[hermang]

The topic is PHONY FORMALISM..and if we want to be honest...that is what it is. My husband and I don't mind getting dressed up...it's the extra suitcase that's the killer. Before our last cruise, I bought some inexpensive, easy to pack PHONY FORMALWEAR at Chico's. That helped. My husband, however, needs to take a tux (or suit,which would take up the same space) and sport jacket. He complains every time we pack. (Please don't suggest he rent....he won't!)

 

He wears a suit and tie every day...well..Mon-Fri!. I can understand a man who complains about getting dressed up on his vacation. However, it is fun, once you are there.

 

Remaining dressed all evening...We are late diners, so we would not have time to change even if we wanted to. Those who wish to...there is casual and there is casual....Shorts and a t shirt may stand out...but nice shirt and pants would blend in (especially since some men remove their jackets anyway). If posters would make "creative suggestions" instead of slamming people, we could have some more interesting and diverse reading here!

 

Public areas...it is not reasonable to expect diners who dressed casual for the alternative restaurant to hide. I think it is very amusing to talk to someone dressed to the nines at 5pm while I am still in very casual mode. If anyone would be insulted because I am in a bathing suit and they are dressed....well there is nothing I can say about that!

 

I laugh when I read all your references to "rules" and "respect". Sorry, but the last reason I would consider would be "dress rules". ..on a vacation! As for "respect"...to me there are far more important aspects of respect, which I don't think I have to list here...but I am willing to bet that many of the "fashion police" are lacking in those areas!

 

I read comparisons to weddings and host/guest relationships. Sorry, I don't buy that. In our community, weddings are galas, way more formal that Celebrity...invitations state "black tie"...however, ultimately someone shows up totally underdressed....so what....who cares...probably that poor soul feels uncomfortable...why would anyone self-respecting person want to make him/her fell worse?

 

For those who say...choose another line...friends went on Oceania...supposedly more casual...(that is not why they chose it). People dressed elegantly.

 

I don't know why I am so fascinated with these posts...I guess it is because so many people think so very differently from the way I do. Wanting to respond to so many of your comments...I know I am rambling!!!

 

At this moment, I am asking myself...should I hit the reply button...or forget about it...............................................................her goes!!!!

 

 

 

I

When I started the topic It was exactly for this reason - I can't see why what I wear to dinner is anyone's concern by mine or my wife's. The comment that I would be forcefully removed from the dining room and then flogged at the mizzenmast for violating what is "suggested" attire is rediculous and should that happen I am sure someone would take on Celebrity and since it is not a requirement but a suggestion would no doubt prevail. The ill will generated by Celebrity would not be worth the court fight

[tbelian]

The comment that I would be forcefully removed from the dining room and then flogged at the mizzenmast for violating what is "suggested" attire is rediculous and should that happen I am sure someone would take on Celebrity and since it is not a requirement but a suggestion would no doubt prevail.

 

I must have missed the comment about flogging?

 

Could you requote it here for reference please?

[WeBeCruisin']

I must have missed the comment about flogging?

 

Could you requote it here for reference please?

 

That's another of their characteristics. They loudly and wildly exaggerate and get oh so dramatic in order to emphasize their lame little arguments.:D

 

Allen

[Ma Bell]

What is so difficult to understand? The CRUISELINE has a dress code. It has nothing to do with what we may prefer to do. It is what it is. The passengers don't enforce the dress code and most of them don't look askance at those who don't comply. It's a fact that almost everyone does comply because they were asked to do so. Sometimes the words are different..."required" "requested" "suggested"...everyone knows what they are supposed to do.

 

Many times the dress code is not enforced, but I have seen people turned away at the door. You may all do exactly as you please and feel however you like. Chances are there will never be any repercussions and no one will really care what you wear, but the truth is that there really is no justification for not doing your best to comply. It's not difficult...it doesn't have to be uncomfortable and it's really not necessary to make such a big deal of it. You'd think it was the end of the earth to have to get dressed up for a few hours.

[cruising with marti]

What is so difficult to understand? The CRUISELINE has a dress code. It has nothing to do with what we may prefer to do. It is what it is. The passengers don't enforce the dress code and most of them don't look askance at those who don't comply. It's a fact that almost everyone does comply because they were asked to do so. Sometimes the words are different..."required" "requested" "suggested"...everyone knows what they are supposed to do.

 

Many times the dress code is not enforced, but I have seen people turned away at the door. You may all do exactly as you please and feel however you like. Chances are there will never be any repercussions and no one will really care what you wear, but the truth is that there really is no justification for not doing your best to comply. It's not difficult...it doesn't have to be uncomfortable and it's really not necessary to make such a big deal of it. You'd think it was the end of the earth to have to get dressed up for a few hours.

 

Nicely said Ma bell, that pretty much sums it up.:)

 

 

Phil