Phony Formalism

[Ekaj]

Ok, so now I am more interested in this whole Titanic thing than I am in the "formal" debate. Apologies to those who wish to argue the dress code, but I really am curious, and Cruise Arizona has a good point. I'm sure that Life's grandparents were on the Carpathia, the only question is what happened with "missing" the Titanic? Lifes2short, are you still around? :)

 

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[pennstater]

ekaj and arizona--I think lifes2short has left the thread. You might have more success in getting more Titanic info (and also getting the topic opened up to those on the board with a similar interest who aren't reading this thread because it isn't titled as such) by starting up a new thread calling for lifes2short's Titanic information. Just a thought, because you may not get him/her back on this thread. Happy hunting!

[caviargal]

And Caviargarl, I am sorry that the Mercury did not achieve better compliance with its own code during your cruise. I trust you mentioned it on your comment card. We, who appreciate the dress code, have to make our feelings known, loud and clear. You can bet that those in favor of a relaxed code do, and I'm sure they do it often!

 

Susan

 

 

Yes I did, and also followed up with an email to Captain's Club. The email has gone unanswered now for two weeks.

[MrPickle]

First time poster here.

 

When my SO and I were discussing what we would do for vacation next year, one of us happened upon the idea of going on a cruise. Perfect, I thought. We drove up the California coast earlier this year and, though we enjoyed the scenery and all the exciting cities and towns, we found it to be a little exhausting as we were constantly on the run, packing and unpacking, checking in and out of hotels, constantly thinking about the next destination, etc. So cruising was an attractive idea—we envisioned a week in the Caribbean sun, doing absolutely nothing but drinking pina coladas, working crosswords, packing light, and hanging around in our shorts and flip flops.

 

But after getting on the internet to begin all the research, read reviews, and scour forums such as this in order to learn more about cruising, I have to say … I was really shocked to learn that the majority—if not all—the mainstream cruiselines expected us to dress "country club casual" every evening. And, on some nights, don formalwear! So 1950's.

 

Sorry, it’s just that when I read threads such as this where I see how deeply entrenched some of you are in this tradition and how you get "embarrassed" for the poor souls who do decide to show up to dinner in jeans or that your cruising experience is somehow ruined because of this, I can’t help but get the impression that this must be a very old school way to travel. And no, I’m not some 21-year-old college kid, nor is my name “Bubba.” I am a 35-year-old attorney and my SO is a 39-year-old college professor. We both have to dress professionally for our jobs every day, we both enjoy dining in gourmet restaurants at least once a month, and we fully comprehend when and why dressing more formally is appropriate when the situation demands (e.g. funerals, weddings, etc.).

 

But vacations to me are about freedom. And yes, vacations are indeed about me, me, me. Most of us work very hard for a living for employers that demand a great deal of our personal time and energy. Vacation is the one sacred period in our lives where we should be able to do what we want, be who we are, and dress how we want. It’s not a time when we should be fretting over whether or not we have every little hair in place or whether or not we’re fitting in with all the other penguins in the room or conforming to others’ idea of what "good taste" is all about. The whole raison d'etre for vacations is to have a good time and be who you are and if you feel that it's necessary to judge others who are doing just that then I feel more sorry for you than I do for the person wearing jeans.

 

So … I issue my thanks to you. This particular thread as well as other forums I’ve examined have been particularly enlightening for me. The verdict? I’ll never cruise.

[caviargal]

First time poster here.

 

When my SO and I were discussing what we would do for vacation next year, one of us happened upon the idea of going on a cruise. Perfect, I thought. We drove up the California coast earlier this year and, though we enjoyed the scenery and all the exciting cities and towns, we found it to be a little exhausting as we were constantly on the run, packing and unpacking, checking in and out of hotels, constantly thinking about the next destination, etc. So cruising was an attractive idea—we envisioned a week in the Caribbean sun, doing absolutely nothing but drinking pina coladas, working crosswords, packing light, and hanging around in our shorts and flip flops.

 

But after getting on the internet to begin all the research, read reviews, and scour forums such as this in order to learn more about cruising, I have to say … I was really shocked to learn that the majority—if not all—the mainstream cruiselines expected us to dress "country club casual" every evening. And, on some nights, don formalwear! So 1950's.

 

Sorry, it’s just that when I read threads such as this where I see how deeply entrenched some of you are in this tradition and how you get "embarrassed" for the poor souls who do decide to show up to dinner in jeans or that your cruising experience is somehow ruined because of this, I can’t help but get the impression that this must be a very old school way to travel. And no, I’m not some 21-year-old college kid, nor is my name “Bubba.” I am a 35-year-old attorney and my SO is a 39-year-old college professor. We both have to dress professionally for our jobs every day, we both enjoy dining in gourmet restaurants at least once a month, and we fully comprehend when and why dressing more formally is appropriate when the situation demands (e.g. funerals, weddings, etc.).

 

But vacations to me are about freedom. And yes, vacations are indeed about me, me, me. Most of us work very hard for a living for employers that demand a great deal of our personal time and energy. Vacation is the one sacred period in our lives where we should be able to do what we want, be who we are, and dress how we want. It’s not a time when we should be fretting over whether or not we have every little hair in place or whether or not we’re fitting in with all the other penguins in the room or conforming to others’ idea of what "good taste" is all about. The whole raison d'etre for vacations is to have a good time and be who you are and if you feel that it's necessary to judge others who are doing just that then I feel more sorry for you than I do for the person wearing jeans.

 

So … I issue my thanks to you. This particular thread as well as other forums I’ve examined have been particularly enlightening for me. The verdict? I’ll never cruise.

 

While it is certainly your decision not to cruise, there are plenty of very good choices for those who prefer the freedom to dress resort casual on their vacation, i.e., Radisson and Oceania. Celebrity does not happen to be one of them and this thread is specific to Celebrity.

 

There is no judgement here of others, IMO, except to state that Celebrity markets their cruises in a very specific fashion, as a premium and more formal and traditional cruise experience. If one does not wish to enjoy that experience, they would be best suited to choosing a different cruise line.

[nu2sea]

While it is certainly your decision not to cruise, there are plenty of very good choices for those who prefer the freedom to dress resort casual on their vacation, i.e., Radisson and Oceania. Celebrity does not happen to be one of them and this thread is specific to Celebrity.

 

There is no judgement here of others, IMO, except to state that Celebrity markets their cruises in a very specific fashion, as a premium and more formal and traditional cruise experience. If one does not wish to enjoy that experience, they would be best suited to choosing a different cruise line.

 

I still don't understand why any adult would make a decision based upon what a group of strangers post on a message board. Granted, one may want to consider it as input in the decision making process, but to use it as a reason to make a decision??

 

In any case, as Caviargal put it so well, it is always an individual decision not to cruise, and there are cruising alternatives that are far less formal.

 

BTW, Caviargal, I saw a photo from your Mercury cruise of the parade of the Baked Alaskas, which I thought was done on the last formal night. But apparently not, as in the photo almost all of the guests were in very casual attire. It did look odd. Glad to hear you wrote to CC about it.

 

Susan

[caviargal]

 

BTW, Caviargal, I saw a photo from your Mercury cruise of the parade of the Baked Alaskas, which I thought was done on the last formal night. But apparently not, as in the photo almost all of the guests were in very casual attire. It did look odd. Glad to hear you wrote to CC about it.

 

Susan

 

Susan, there was only one formal night which was the second night of the cruise. But I am glad the photos illustrated how folks were dressed aboard. I wonder if you could see the flip flops? : )

 

CG

[nu2sea]

No, no flip flops visible.:eek: :D

 

Here is the link: http://yougonnaeatallthat.blogspot.com/2005/10/our-cruise-celebrity-mercury-oct-8-13.html

 

It was included in a thread on this forum about the Oct 8-13th cruise. That was your cruise, wasn't it?

 

Susan

[Karynanne]

I agree with Susan and Caviargal...there are many different cruise lines to choose from that may appeal to your vacation comfort zone...

 

Cruising can be many different things to many people...for us, it's usually all about the "Cruise"...the ports are the icing on the cake. We enjoy the whole experience, the protocol, AND the freedom to choose a cruise line that fits our lifestyle.

 

Hopefully you won't be discouraged from cruising based upon anything you've read on the boards.

 

Just try this great experience!

 

Karyn

[MrPickle]

While it is certainly your decision not to cruise, there are plenty of very good choices for those who prefer the freedom to dress resort casual on their vacation, i.e., Radisson

From Radisson's website:

 

Q: What is the dress code on board the ships?

 

A: Shipboard attire ranges from Country Club casual to informal to formal. Country Club casual (resort-style attire) is appropriate for daytime on board or ashore. Shorts are not appropriate after 6 p.m. in any of the public rooms or lounges. Guests are asked not to wear bathing suits in the restaurants and lounges at any time. Evening attire can be Country Club casual, informal (sport coat and tie recommended), or formal (black tie optional). Evening dress codes begins at 6 p.m.

 

and Oceania.

 

From Oceania's website:

 

Q: What should I pack?

 

A: Recommended onboard clothing is resort or country club casual. For evening dining, elegant casual resort wear is suggested. We request that jeans, shorts, t-shirts or tennis shoes not be worn at dinner.

 

FUN! I love being told how to dress while on vacation. ;)

 

 

Celebrity does not happen to be one of them and this thread is specific to Celebrity.

... and to Carnival ... and to RCI ... and to HAL ... and to QE2 ... and to Princess ...

 

There is no judgement here of others, IMO, except to state that Celebrity markets their cruises in a very specific fashion, as a premium and more formal and traditional cruise experience. If one does not wish to enjoy that experience, they would be best suited to choosing a different cruise line.

And those would be ...?

[MrPickle]

I still don't understand why any adult would make a decision based upon what a group of strangers post on a message board.

Are you saying that these dress codes are a myth and that I shouldn't believe the comments I've read here and on the cruiselines' websites?

 

In any case, as Caviargal put it so well, it is always an individual decision not to cruise, and there are cruising alternatives that are far less formal.

Such as ...?

[Karynanne]

In light of your preconceived views on cruising...maybe it would be in your best interest to take a land vacation.

[rferr]

First time poster here.

 

When my SO and I were discussing what we would do for vacation next year, one of us happened upon the idea of going on a cruise. Perfect, I thought. We drove up the California coast earlier this year and, though we enjoyed the scenery and all the exciting cities and towns, we found it to be a little exhausting as we were constantly on the run, packing and unpacking, checking in and out of hotels, constantly thinking about the next destination, etc. So cruising was an attractive idea—we envisioned a week in the Caribbean sun, doing absolutely nothing but drinking pina coladas, working crosswords, packing light, and hanging around in our shorts and flip flops.

 

But after getting on the internet to begin all the research, read reviews, and scour forums such as this in order to learn more about cruising, I have to say … I was really shocked to learn that the majority—if not all—the mainstream cruiselines expected us to dress "country club casual" every evening. And, on some nights, don formalwear! So 1950's.

 

Sorry, it’s just that when I read threads such as this where I see how deeply entrenched some of you are in this tradition and how you get "embarrassed" for the poor souls who do decide to show up to dinner in jeans or that your cruising experience is somehow ruined because of this, I can’t help but get the impression that this must be a very old school way to travel. And no, I’m not some 21-year-old college kid, nor is my name “Bubba.” I am a 35-year-old attorney and my SO is a 39-year-old college professor. We both have to dress professionally for our jobs every day, we both enjoy dining in gourmet restaurants at least once a month, and we fully comprehend when and why dressing more formally is appropriate when the situation demands (e.g. funerals, weddings, etc.).

 

But vacations to me are about freedom. And yes, vacations are indeed about me, me, me. Most of us work very hard for a living for employers that demand a great deal of our personal time and energy. Vacation is the one sacred period in our lives where we should be able to do what we want, be who we are, and dress how we want. It’s not a time when we should be fretting over whether or not we have every little hair in place or whether or not we’re fitting in with all the other penguins in the room or conforming to others’ idea of what "good taste" is all about. The whole raison d'etre for vacations is to have a good time and be who you are and if you feel that it's necessary to judge others who are doing just that then I feel more sorry for you than I do for the person wearing jeans.

 

So … I issue my thanks to you. This particular thread as well as other forums I’ve examined have been particularly enlightening for me. The verdict? I’ll never cruise.

 

Don't let this board fool you there are other lines that are not so stuffy. You just picked the worst one. I have and will never go on X (much to the relief of the people here). I just come here and read these threads and get a laugh but don't think that all lines are like this.

[hermang]

First time poster here.

 

When my SO and I were discussing what we would do for vacation next year, one of us happened upon the idea of going on a cruise. Perfect, I thought. We drove up the California coast earlier this year and, though we enjoyed the scenery and all the exciting cities and towns, we found it to be a little exhausting as we were constantly on the run, packing and unpacking, checking in and out of hotels, constantly thinking about the next destination, etc. So cruising was an attractive idea—we envisioned a week in the Caribbean sun, doing absolutely nothing but drinking pina coladas, working crosswords, packing light, and hanging around in our shorts and flip flops.

 

But after getting on the internet to begin all the research, read reviews, and scour forums such as this in order to learn more about cruising, I have to say … I was really shocked to learn that the majority—if not all—the mainstream cruiselines expected us to dress "country club casual" every evening. And, on some nights, don formalwear! So 1950's.

 

Sorry, it’s just that when I read threads such as this where I see how deeply entrenched some of you are in this tradition and how you get "embarrassed" for the poor souls who do decide to show up to dinner in jeans or that your cruising experience is somehow ruined because of this, I can’t help but get the impression that this must be a very old school way to travel. And no, I’m not some 21-year-old college kid, nor is my name “Bubba.” I am a 35-year-old attorney and my SO is a 39-year-old college professor. We both have to dress professionally for our jobs every day, we both enjoy dining in gourmet restaurants at least once a month, and we fully comprehend when and why dressing more formally is appropriate when the situation demands (e.g. funerals, weddings, etc.).

 

But vacations to me are about freedom. And yes, vacations are indeed about me, me, me. Most of us work very hard for a living for employers that demand a great deal of our personal time and energy. Vacation is the one sacred period in our lives where we should be able to do what we want, be who we are, and dress how we want. It’s not a time when we should be fretting over whether or not we have every little hair in place or whether or not we’re fitting in with all the other penguins in the room or conforming to others’ idea of what "good taste" is all about. The whole raison d'etre for vacations is to have a good time and be who you are and if you feel that it's necessary to judge others who are doing just that then I feel more sorry for you than I do for the person wearing jeans.

 

So … I issue my thanks to you. This particular thread as well as other forums I’ve examined have been particularly enlightening for me. The verdict? I’ll never cruise.

 

Your comments are exactly why I started the thread in the first place.

celebrity IMHO markets the cruise experience which is multifaceted. Good food, Great service, Great ports, Ok so the entertainment is not great - but they do not market the cruiseline as being for Fashionistas. I agree what I wear or not wear should not in anyway enhance or spoil anyone's cruise.

Yes I have a tux and yes I will wear it - OR NOT. No I won't wear shorts in the dining room at dinner nor jeans - but not because Celebrity or anyone on the boards says so.

 

Take a cruise and disregard the naysayers - we have been cruising since 1995 and while we are considerably older than you - we feel exactly the same. The cruise experience is what YOU make it not what others tell you it should be.

 

For years we sailed with Royal Caribbean - and we still will. We took our second celebrity cruise this summer on the Summit. Loved the itinerary, the food and the service - and being in Alaska - we wore formal Parkas ( NOT).

Next March we will probably sail the Constellation to the Caribbean - why - different ports than RCCL, They have a Thalasotharapy pool, and the food is great. NOTICE i said nothing about clothing

.

[GeminiA]

I don't see what's the big deal with following dress codes, I really doesn't bother me either way. I will comply with what is suggested & not worry too much about what others do.

I recently had my first cruise with Crystal, & there are only 3 formal nights, the rest being 2 informal, & 7 casual nights on a 12 day cruise. Wearing a tie may not be considered comfortable for some, but 3 nights out of 12 aren't bad at all.

Since I wear a jacket & tie to work anyway, I'm used to that kind of attire. On formal nights tux is not a requirement even on Crystal cruises, all you need is a dark suite with tie, which I think is the rule on formal nights for Celebrity as well (which I've cruised with twice), or any cruise line.

I don't have a tux & have never worn one on a cruise. So I really never thought I was required or requested to really dressed up on any cruise, so following the dress code is never a problem for me.

[F5Loar]

To say you will never cruise because of dress codes is about as dumb as you could come to being totally out of touch with today's cruises. With Freestyle and Personal Choice going on with NCL and Princess lines there is no reason to say such rubbish. And as far as that goes X and others that do sorta enforce their dress codes on formal nights have alternate dining for those not wishing to conform. So where's the beef? Don't like to dress up then don't but don't expect to show up in the main dining room on formal nights in your favorite pleated shorts with sandals. I believe the only thing that get's these dress posts so heated is when we come off a cruise and see "these people" who choose to show up on formal night in whatever suits their taste with no regard to the dress code suggestions. It obviously does not spoil 98% of the cruisers who do understand the reason you do it. But that 2% that does show up sure do get the looks! Had they gone to the alternate dining as suggested by the cruise line we would not be having these discussions of what's right and what's wrong on formal nights. Personally I don't see why anyone would want to stick out like a sore thumb or was we say down south, like a red headed step child at a family reunion.

[nu2sea]

Mr. Pickle has apparently discovered a basic truth that many on this thread would like to ignore: THE CRUISE LINES SET THE DRESS CODES FOR THEIR OWN SHIPS.

I don't set the dress code, nor do any who post here. So I ask again, why would you decide to take or not take a cruise based on the opinions expressed on a message board?

 

You are giving far more weight to our opinions than we do. But I think you know that.;)

 

Happy vacationing, wherever it takes you, and however you get there,

 

Susan

[CaliforniaDreamin]

Personally I don't see why anyone would want to stick out like a sore thumb or was we say down south, like a red headed step child at a family reunion.

 

I also don't know why anyone (from down south or not) wants to say such rubbish as this.

[kaseyoz]

why not chose to cruise in australia. We are very informal here, relaxed and friendly. For "formal wear" p and o suggest a suit. Not one tuxedo was to be seen on our recent cruise.

Shorts, t shirts and sandals were worn to dinner. Swim wear with cover up and boardshorts were worn to breakfast and lunch.

 

This was my first cruise (so never cruised in america so cant compare really)and loved the laidback carefree attitude on board, no rude people , no chairhogs

 

I did wear a long red flowy formal dress and hubby wore suit and tie, kids wore smart casual, but we enjoyed getting dressed up for one night.

you just have to do what you are most comfortable with

 

karon(sydney australia)

[caviargal]

MrPickle: As a TA, I would say that you likely would not enjoy the cruise experience. Apparently, there is no cruise line who meets your needs to dress just as you wish when you wish and this is the key to a vacation for you. For many of us it is just the opposite and we enjoy being in an environment where people are - in general - well dressed and enjoying a nice dinner.

 

If country club casual is so offensive to you, as it apparently is,there is always Windjammer or Star Clippers. Unless, of course, wearing a collared shirt would ruin your good time.

[halos]

[… I was really shocked to learn that the majority—if not all—the mainstream cruiselines expected us to dress "country club casual" every evening. And, on some nights, don formalwear! So 1950's.]

 

Why is it 'old fashioned' to want to dress nice?....that doesn't sound like a comment that a 35 year old lawyer would make.

 

[but get the impression that this must be a very old school way to travel. ]

 

again...I don't understand the comment.... and you don't have to eat in the formal dining room on the ships, if you had done a little more investigating you'd know there are casual options. To you this is "old school", to some it's about tradition.

 

[The whole raison d'etre for vacations is to have a good time and be who you are and if you feel that it's necessary to judge others who are doing just that then I feel more sorry for you than I do for the person wearing jeans.[/font]]

 

The way I see it you are judging us for wanting to dress nice and have a traditional cruise.

 

[So … I issue my thanks to you. This particular thread as well as other forums I’ve examined have been particularly enlightening for me. The verdict? I’ll never cruise.

 

It doesn't sound like cruising is the vacation for you but it must be more than the dress codes that upset you.... I don't understand why 2 supposedly well educated people would make a decision based on a cruise board...I'm sure between the two of you, you must have some friends or acquaintances that have cruised...what were their opinions??

[MrPickle]

MrPickle: As a TA, I would say that you likely would not enjoy the cruise experience.

Darn tootin'.

 

Apparently, there is no cruise line who meets your needs to dress just as you wish when you wish and this is the key to a vacation for you.

And my only question in response to that is ... why not? It's a simple question that shouldn't require a very involved answer. Again, I'm not talking about a smelly grease-stained muscle shirt and speedos; I'm talking about shorts. Like what normal people wear in the summer. Like what people wear when they're on vacation. If I want to visit the bar and have a drink at night, why can't I wear shorts? Are cruisers not really on vacation? Do they not pay handsomely for this privilege? What makes shorts at night an appalling concept to people? Did Poseidon issue some kind of edict thousands of years ago saying that he would imperil any sea vessel where man wore shorts and sandals in the evening? I have yet to hear a logical coherent response to any of these questions (or at least one that doesn't laden with subjective opinion such as "Because it's just not appropriate!")

 

For many of us it is just the opposite and we enjoy being in an environment where people are - in general - well dressed and enjoying a nice dinner.

Which is fine. As I said before, more power to you. Go play dress up. Just don't glower at people on the boat who have a different idea of what a vacation is.

 

If country club casual is so offensive to you, as it apparently is,

Not offensive at all. What is offensive to me is people who think they have the right to dictate what others wear. Even though they're all supposedly on a vacation.

 

there is always Windjammer or Star Clippers. Unless, of course, wearing a collared shirt would ruin your good time.

Windjammer & Star Clippers are not big boats and probably not the best choice for first time cruisers who might have problems with seasickness and too much of the adventure element. Big boats require you to conform to a dress code so you don't ruin the illusion of elegance for the other passengers. (Even though there's a tacky casino also on the boat.)

 

I think what gripes me is that many of you dress code dictators seem more wrapped up in an "illusion" or "idea" of what you think cruising should be than you are with any of the substantive aspects of the trip itself. Some people want to go just for the relaxation aspect or the quest of seeing new and different lands. You view it as a club. And when you see people running around on the boat whose idea of a vacation doesn't dovetail with yours, it goads on you.

[MrPickle]

Why is it 'old fashioned' to want to dress nice?....that doesn't sound like a comment that a 35 year old lawyer would make.

I can say with 100% certainty that there are very few lawyers my age who can't wait to go on vacation just so they can put on a suit and tie. Astonishing isn't it? Who would have thought that lawyers were people too and liked to relax?

 

 

again...I don't understand the comment.... and you don't have to eat in the formal dining room on the ships, if you had done a little more investigating you'd know there are casual options. To you this is "old school", to some it's about tradition.

Well, I have read enough posts to know that formal nights apply to most of the public areas of the ship--not just the main dining room. One lady said she was making her way to the buffet on RCI on formal evening and overheard another lady comment about the fact she was wearing shorts. So she went back to her cabin and waited for formal night to be over so she could emerge and once again resume her vacation.

 

Yippee. That sounds like a blast. All because she didn't want to lug all that garb on a plane and then on a boat.

 

The way I see it you are judging us for wanting to dress nice and have a traditional cruise.

So if you're having a traditional cruise, what kind of cruise am I having?

 

 

It doesn't sound like cruising is the vacation for you but it must be more than the dress codes that upset you.... I don't understand why 2 supposedly well educated people would make a decision based on a cruise board...I'm sure between the two of you, you must have some friends or acquaintances that have cruised...what were their opinions??

You tell me. What are public areas like on formal night? How many people do you see running around in shorts on any given night? In jeans? Do they look conspicuous? Apparently they do otherwise so many people wouldn't be raising such a stink about it on this thread and many others.

[usha]

Mr. Pickle, the only source of "dictation" about what you're supposed to wear in the evening on a cruise ship is the Cruise line itself. It sounds as though you really need to address your questions and complaints about the dress codes to the cruise lines, not the people who are complying with the dress codes.

[jff50]

Well, I have read enough posts to know that formal nights apply to most of the public areas of the ship--not just the main dining room. One lady said she was making her way to the buffet on RCI on formal evening and overheard another lady comment about the fact she was wearing shorts. So she went back to her cabin and waited for formal night to be over so she could emerge and once again resume her vacation.

 

You tell me. What are public areas like on formal night? How many people do you see running around in shorts on any given night? In jeans? Do they look conspicuous? Apparently they do otherwise so many people wouldn't be raising such a stink about it on this thread and many others.

 

This subject (as well as children and smoking) is blown far more out of proportion on these threads than it is on the ship. The cruise lines are pretty lax on the enforcement of the dress code (I think they do that to give some people something to complain about). I have more experience with Princess than I do with Celebrity. Even though you will find similar threads re: Princess, I get the impression that they are not a formal as Celebrity. My impression may be affected less by these boards as it relates to Princess, since I've sailed with them more.

 

I find that enough people change into less formal attire after the formal night dinner that I don't feel out of place in dockers or even jeans. I don't recall seeing shorts at the indoor public areas on formal night, although that may be because shorts can be a little chilly in those public areas.