Phony Formalism

[crusinmama22]

I grew up in Long Island and upstate NY (Lake George Area).

 

I was taught to wear the proper clothes to occasion.

 

I also ENJOY dressing up. My husband will do what makes me happy, as I will do the same for him. We choose a ship that allows the dressing up but does not go overboard.

 

For those of you who prefer not to dress up -- it does not bother me -- but rules are rules, as stated before just choose the ship that fits your style, and remember we are all on vacation and respect is important.

 

I was also raised to treat others as I would like to be treated. If all of us, including me, could remember that this world would be a much better place.

 

Our ship sails on 2/18/06 and believe me it can't come soon enough.

[excitedofharpenden]

cruisinmama22, I'm with you completely on that, but you have used the dreaded "rules" word and the non-believers will say it is "suggested" only. Me, if it is suggested I wear something particular to go and eat, whether it be at friends or in a restaurant I'll wear what is "asked" of me.

 

Canderson, I like your further qualification of fishing in the lake with a name longer than a place on Anglesey. I will sit on your side of the lake. If I push you off your fold up fishing seat, does that make me a chair hog?:)

 

Phil

[hdawson]

Usually, an invitation to a formal social event the word used is "requested" or "suggested". Very poor manners to use the word "required". In a civil society, it is assumed that people will understand what is expected when asked in a courtesous manner. As I've said, we should all choose the line that most closely matches our taste and comfort level.

[turtlemichael]

I agree we should choose a line that matches our own taste and comfort level, but the bottom line is that increasing numbers do their own thing and dress down in situations where that line would rather have you dress up. For whatever reason, presumably so as not to rock the boat, Celebrity does not enforce its code so the dressing down continues. Fortunately for me, I do not worry what others wear but happily comply with the code myself and have a good time.

[Ma Bell]

I appreciate/respect what you have to say Ma Bell. We just got off the "Mercury" and what we read was "requested/not required." Nor did they mention the ambience/public areas in the daily. We've always dressed to code but there were quite a few who didn't and weren't turned away. Several people have already posted on this forum the same experience from the "Mercury" and other Celeb. ships that I just mentioned.

Do you think maybe they've changed the dress code? Just curious, due to the recent cruisers take as opposed to those who haven't sailed Celeb. in awhile.

Happy Sailings :)

 

I just got off Summit on Sept 30 and the wording was required. People were dressed exceptionally well on this particular cruise, even on casual nights. It was a two week cruise. I'll be on Mercury on Halloween for 11 days and will bring back a copy of the daily. I've never been on a 5 day cruise, so maybe that's the difference. As I said, sometimes I've seen the code enforced and sometimes not.

[Tuna]

Usually, an invitation to a formal social event the word used is "requested" or "suggested". Very poor manners to use the word "required". In a civil society, it is assumed that people will understand what is expected when asked in a courtesous manner. As I've said, we should all choose the line that most closely matches our taste and comfort level.

 

Agreed. However, if I show up at a social event or a restaurant noticeably underdressed, I will either be denied entrance or will not be asked back.These consequences are the only things that keep people from straying from the suggested dress, even in polite society. This is not the case with cruise ships. Cruise ships do not enforce their policies, and herein lies the problem. I believe that an unenforced policy is actually worse than no policy at all. If Celebrity is serious about having a formal dining atmosphere, they will get serious with enforcing the dress code. However, their need to fill the cabins will ensure that this will not happen.

[canderson]

Canderson, I like your further qualification of fishing in the lake with a name longer than a place on Anglesey.

At least Herman's lake is pronounced phonetically. Those folks in Angelesy need to buy their own alphabet and leave ours alone!

I will sit on your side of the lake. If I push you off your fold up fishing seat, does that make me a chair hog?:)

 

Phil

No, but if I'm injured, I'll be expecting five fish and a trolling motor for a future cruise in compensation!

 

I find it interesting that some of the posters here think it is only a matter of time before Celebrity has to 'wake up' and join the party and follow the lead of some lines that have made significant changes to the onboard experience in one way or another. Again, it seems to miss the point that Celebrity may well be able to do a nice business catering to the segment of the market that actually enjoys cruising under the current policies. That seems to bother a lot of folks for some reason.

 

I'm guessing that one of the things that keeps you on Celebrity is that, like us, you're happy with the balance that Celebrity has already struck. Fair statement?

[Ma Bell]

Tuna,

 

I'm sure what you say is true. That's why people will continue to justify a lack of consideration. Whether it says required or requested, we all know what they are saying.:)

[canderson]

Agreed. However, if I show up at a social event or a restaurant noticeably underdressed, I will either be denied entrance or will not be asked back.These consequences are the only things that keep people from straying from the suggested dress, even in polite society. This is not the case with cruise ships. Cruise ships do not enforce their policies, and herein lies the problem. I believe that an unenforced policy is actually worse than no policy at all. If Celebrity is serious about having a formal dining atmosphere, they will get serious with enforcing the dress code. However, their need to fill the cabins will ensure that this will not happen.

Well stated. I can only imagine the constant tension that exists between HQ and the ship's staff in this regard, trying to divine the right line to draw. The policy is enforced at times (as several of us have witnessed), but it's spotty. Evidently the question will eventually become whether Celebrity truly believes that its particular attempts to differentiate itself from the other lines is sufficiently successful (and I hope that it is) that they are able to be a bit more proactive in addressing the issue with passengers. As noted earlier in the thread, a business (e.g., restaurant) used to take its own policies seriously enough that they were willing to consistently uphold them, even if it meant turning away a customer now and again. The result was a general understanding that they weren't kidding, and one knew what to expect upon arrival.

 

I really do think that Celebrity is hoping that between stating their policies in web and hardcopy, TA's doing their job in explaining the differences in policies and experience between lines, and simple peer pressure, that they won't have to make any changes to their approach in upholding their own policy. Time will tell, I guess.

[caviargal]

I appreciate/respect what you have to say Ma Bell. We just got off the "Mercury" and what we read was "requested/not required." Nor did they mention the ambience/public areas in the daily. We've always dressed to code but there were quite a few who didn't and weren't turned away. Several people have already posted on this forum the same experience from the "Mercury" and other Celeb. ships that I just mentioned.

Do you think maybe they've changed the dress code? Just curious, due to the recent cruisers take as opposed to those who haven't sailed Celeb. in awhile.

Happy Sailings :)

 

IMO, "requested" is the same as "required", in that I believe adults should be able and willing to comply with what the cruise line is asking in terms of proper and not adjust the descriptions (clearly posted on their web site) to their own pesonal tastes and interpretations. On Mercury last week, it clearly stated in my daily that jeans were "not permitted" in the dining room, yet I saw several in jeans, along with flip flops. Should they have been turned away? I personally think so but it did not happen.

 

We had three tables in our group of 30, all travel agents and guests. The men all wore sport coats on the informal nights and tuxes on formal nights. The majority of the women wore long dresses on the one formal night. I noticed that the gentlemen at our tables were always well dressed, while the same could not be said of many other passengers.

 

Another poster that sailed on this cruise had asked for attire suggestions for the sailing prior to departure and I had responded, based on my experiences with X in the past. She posted later that she had overdressed, based on these recommendations and that her husband wore a jacket when he did not "have" to, based on what she observed other men wearing.

 

Our table was amongst the most dressed up in the evenings aboard ship. I never felt overdressed, but then again I dress to my own tastes and standards and to respect the guidelines of the ship, and do not dress down because other passengers choose to do so.

 

I will admit to being quite disappointed in this aspect of the cruise. As a frequent cruiser and as a TA, I can no longer say that Celebrity consistently offers a more formal experience than most of the lines out there. A standard I had long considered to be a differentiator was no longer in evidence. While it sounds as if many consider this to be animprovement, I am sad to see this aspect of cruising with Celebrity decline.

 

CG

[C 2 C]

Many of us who like the rules on Celebrity and gladly follow the suggested code of behaviour, often wonder why rules are not enforced. This includes those who smoke where they want, wear bathing suits while in the buffet, or wear shorts/jeans into the dining area. I have heard many complaints from the staff that they are not supported by Celebrity. They fear the retaliation from pax comment cards about challenging pax's right to do anything they want without being confronted by staff who they consider to be THEIR employees. I make a point of praising any staff member, by word and comment card, when they are seen enforcing the rules.

[hdawson]

Caviargirl. Don't you think that one reason for some cruisers that insist on dressing down is that over the last four years, prices have been depressed allowing or encouraging a different class of vacationer to be onboard?

I would hate to see Celebrity, or any other line become no more special than a week at the beach or mountain retreat. The refinement of a cruise is probably what most hooked me to cruising.

[trcori]

My husband, son and I are about as casual as casual gets. Kid goes to school in sweat pants every day. When I'm not at work, I live in jeans and T-shirts. Hub has his grubbies on all the time. It just does not seem like such a huge deal to take along a couple dresses and jackets when we sail on our favorite cruise line so that we can honor the dress code the few nights a cruise that it's not "casual." I am still mystified that some people feel it's such an incredible imposition!

 

How about a new slogan, "Celebrity Cruises: Just bring TWO D**N FORMAL OUTFITS, OK?" -- TR

[hdawson]

There are a couple of fine cruiselines that make formal night optional. Also I think all the mainstream lines offer a casual dining option.

[K&RCurt]

I usually avoid these dress code threads,as one of my first posts stared one of the flame wars when I asked about appropriated dress for the alternative resturaunt on HAL. I got the answer I was looking for within 10 min., but the thread went throught the usual back and forth and degenerated into rudeness etc.

 

It usually comes down to "What is expected?" vs. "What can I get away with?". The OP is either TRULY asking what's appropriate and disappears after the heated debate begins OR it's someone who likes to fan the flames and knows full well what is expected but just wants support for their position or wants to "get into it" with those they know will argue the point.

 

I grew up in Connecticut and one of my best friends lived on Lake Chagogagogagogchabungamungamaug (Which the locals call "Webster Lake"). The meaning of this which I was told is "We fish on our side, You fish on your side and NO ONE fishes in the middle". This way disputes about the dividing line between the two Native American tribes fishing areas were avoided.

[BrooklynGirl2]

I enjoy dressing formally, so does my husband and even my 5 year old son was dressed in jacket and tie. I also dress in business attire for work as I work in a conservative financial environment. We chose Celebrity specifically for the formal dress code and the elegant atmosphere that it provides for dining (and the great food too!).

 

I think HQ and the crew need to be on the same page for enforcing the dress codes. I would like to see them enforce it and would like to see Celebrity maintain this distinction from other cruise lines. Perhaps instead of debating this here we should let Celebrity know how we feel with regard to their enforcing the suggested dress code and let them know the formalness of the cruise experience is why we cruise with them.

 

BTW, we are in our forties and have many more years of cruising ahead of us. I would hate to see Celebrity go freestyle or casual as that would totally change the cruise experience for us and we would be forced to look elsewhere.

[Lifes2short]

Tuna,

 

I'm sure what you say is true. That's why people will continue to justify a lack of consideration. Whether it says required or requested, we all know what they are saying.:)

 

I agree it sure shows a lack of consideration when you are "intolerant" of how other people dress/think. Change is uncomfortable but inevitable. Isn't it wonderful to have such enlightened people on this forum who can agree to disagree w/out the "petty" comments and condescending attitude?

Hope you have a wonderful cruise and just know you'll come back w/a full report/review. Can't wait.

Happy Sailings :)

Wow...I just noticed, we're from the same area. :)

[pennstater]

Caviargirl. Don't you think that one reason for some cruisers that insist on dressing down is that over the last four years, prices have been depressed allowing or encouraging a different class of vacationer to be onboard?

.

 

I hope I'm not taking this comment in the wrong way, but I am one of those people that wouldn't otherwise be cruising if the prices weren't a bit lower than in the past. I'm young, well-educated, career-oriented and consider myself fairly sophisticated in the ways of the world - I make a decent living, along with my husband, but wouldn't have considered cruising if the prices were much higher.

 

I tend to bristle when the term 'class' is used because that implies so many stereotypes and terms of superiority. I do hope that I misunderstood your intent. My understanding of your question is that lower prices allow those with fewer financial means to cruise, who are a lower 'class' of customer. In my experience, financial means has very little to do with manners/proper dress/observing rules...a rich person may choose not to observe the rules and a poor person may choose to observe the rules.

 

Again, I may be reading too much into the question and I honestly hope that is the case.

[caviargal]

Caviargirl. Don't you think that one reason for some cruisers that insist on dressing down is that over the last four years, prices have been depressed allowing or encouraging a different class of vacationer to be onboard?

I would hate to see Celebrity, or any other line become no more special than a week at the beach or mountain retreat. The refinement of a cruise is probably what most hooked me to cruising.

 

 

hdawson: I think this is a factor but I do feel that our society in general has become lazier and more sloppy all the way around. Fast food, drive through windows, etc. are still basically an American taste (yes, McDonalds have proliferated throughout Europe and the Caribbean as well but culturally they are considered "American".)

 

I am often appalled at how I see people dress in general. Personal grooming seems to be becoming almost obsolete.

 

And I totally agree about one of the aspects of cruising that very much appeals to me as well: a bit of refinement and elegance that is too rarely found elsewhere.

 

As far as cruising goes, some lines market heavily to families. They tout "fun" and "value" or "freestyle dining" and "optional" dress codes. It is here that I would expect those in the more price conscious category would focus. It is certainly where I, as a TA, would recommend they cruise.

 

Celebrity websites and brochures still depict an elegant experience and nicely dressed passengers. I can tell you that from a professional perspective (I was at a Seminar at Sea aboard Mercury and frequently attend training events for the various lines) they pitch their product as "premium cruising" and make a case for offering a cruise product that is above the rest in terms of food and service and still offers a traditional formality. They do not market themselves as "fun" or "casual" or anything similar.

 

It was disappointing to see that while HQ touts these features, it does not support its own policies. The staff, IMO, should not be penalized for attempting to uphold the type of experience X claims to offer; they should be commended. But I also agree that it appears the bottom line comes first. It will only be when their repeat passengers and those who sail for the first time and are disappointed go elsewhere, if they do, and X feels this in their bottom line, that any changes will be forthcoming.

 

I for one cannot afford to cruise with Crystal so X was my line of choice for a classy cruise experience. This recent cruise has caused me to reconsider a bit.

[C 2 C]

I agree it sure shows a lack of consideration when you are "intolerant" of how other people dress/think. Change is uncomfortable but inevitable.

Are you saying that tolerance of thinking differently is the same as tolerance of dressing differently?

 

If there is a posting that the dress code for tonight is "FORMAL" then it is OK to think differently and that the posting is meant only for others. Am I now intolerant because I think that all people know what FORMAL means but they THINK differently than I do? When the speed limit is posted and others think differently, am I now intolerant of speeders?

 

Change does occur but it does not mean that we have to tolerate it without comment. There is a dumbing down, a devolution in social graces here that is impossible to control but which I refuse to be part of. We follow the lemming crowd we prefer. I prefer my fantasy world, a world with accepable rules, a world with people who follow those rules because it leads to a better experience for all. I have no desire to be part of the group who believes that rules are only for others and then scream that others are intolerant of their (mis)behaviour.

[Lifes2short]

IMO, "requested" is the same as "required", in that I believe adults should be able and willing to comply with what the cruise line is asking in terms of proper and not adjust the descriptions (clearly posted on their web site) to their own pesonal tastes and interpretations. On Mercury last week, it clearly stated in my daily that jeans were "not permitted" in the dining room, yet I saw several in jeans, along with flip flops. Should they have been turned away? I personally think so but it did not happen.

 

We had three tables in our group of 30, all travel agents and guests. The men all wore sport coats on the informal nights and tuxes on formal nights. The majority of the women wore long dresses on the one formal night. I noticed that the gentlemen at our tables were always well dressed, while the same could not be said of many other passengers.

CG

Another poster that sailed on this cruise had asked for attire suggestions for the sailing prior to departure and I had responded, based on my experiences with X in the past. She posted later that she had overdressed, based on these recommendations and that her husband wore a jacket when he did not "have" to, based on what she observed other men wearing.

 

Our table was amongst the most dressed up in the evenings aboard ship. I never felt overdressed, but then again I dress to my own tastes and standards and to respect the guidelines of the ship, and do not dress down because other passengers choose to do so.

 

I will admit to being quite disappointed in this aspect of the cruise. As a frequent cruiser and as a TA, I can no longer say that Celebrity consistently offers a more formal experience than most of the lines out there. A standard I had long considered to be a differentiator was no longer in evidence. While it sounds as if many consider this to be animprovement, I am sad to see this aspect of cruising with Celebrity decline.

 

CG

CG

With you being a TA do you feel that Celeb. (owned by Royal)may have to lower costs and make adjustments w/larger ships/more amenities/activities etc. to keep their ships full?

Every time I see a Carnival commercial they state their the largest cruise line afloat. Which lines sell out the most and do you think other lines like Celeb. take notice and could possibly be forced to make the above mentioned changes to stay in business?

[SusieV]

Sometimes I wonder if the varying opinions about dress codes reflects the diversity in age and geographics of posters on this board.

 

Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote feature.

 

Don't blame it all on us young people! My husband bought a sports jacket specifically for our cruise, and he loves how handsome he looks in it. He also purchased a tuxedo for our wedding instead of renting because he knew he could use it while cruising.

 

We enjoy getting dressed up and looking elegant, and the ambiance of the ship on formal night is amazing.

 

Don't spoil it for the rest of us if you don't enjoy dressing up. There are a multitude of cruiselines out there for a reason. My inlaws are going on their first cruise next week, and they are taking NCL. I would never recommend Celebrity to them because they hate getting dressed up, so we helped them choose a cruiseline that had more features that they would enjoy.

 

It doesn't mean that you're not good enough for Celebrity if you don't dress up, but why stick a square peg into a round hole? I'm sure there's a line that offers the type of cruising experience you want, just like the formal atmosphere on Celebrity meets our desires for a perfect cruise.

[Ma Bell]

I agree it sure shows a lack of consideration when you are "intolerant" of how other people dress/think. Change is uncomfortable but inevitable. Isn't it wonderful to have such enlightened people on this forum who can agree to disagree w/out the "petty" comments and condescending attitude?

Hope you have a wonderful cruise and just know you'll come back w/a full report/review. Can't wait.

Happy Sailings :)

Wow...I just noticed, we're from the same area. :)

 

I am the most "tolerant" person you will meet when it comes to people's thoughts and opinions. I just think it's impolite to not do what is requested. If and when the day comes that Celebrity decides change is inevitable, I'll have to decide if it will still be my cruiseline of choice. I don't think it's condescending to comply with the dress code. I would think it may be a little condescending to think that the cruiseline needs to change it's policies just because I don't like them.

 

Thank goodness there are lots of choices in our lives so we can all express our opinions by the choices we make.:)

[Two@Sea]

Dawn (Pennstater) made a valid point which seems to have been overlooked here. Please consider "perception" in your evaluations of what is, or is not, formal. To some, it might be sequins. To others, it could be rayon. Both are attempts to adhere to the dress code to the best of one's knowledge or ability. "Perception" may be muddying the water in the middle of the lake.

[hdawson]

Pennstater. I guess I'm not too politically correct. A bit tired of it. There are many classes of people, automobiles, lifestyles, etc. OK. I'll change the wording to "different type of vacationer". Having said that, different type includes those that were formerly beach or mountain vacationers. Backpackers and those going to all-inclusives. And the list goes on. However, I do think those lower prices have changed the social demographics somewhat.

 

Caviargirl. I agree with everything you've said. So many people ignoring personal grooming and the concept of looking their best. For some it seems that their thinking is how disheveled can I look or how little I can get away with.

 

I do commend the cruise industry for offering just about any style of cruising the public could want. There is nothing wrong with those that don't want to dress any better than dockers. And there are lines providing that option.

 

I do suggest that cruisers should let the maitre d or asst if they want dress standards. And also never miss the opportunity to mention it on your comment card. Each relaxation of those standards is a slippery slope downward. Make formal nights optional? Then shorts? Cutoffs with muscle shirts? A line really needs to be drawn and management should enforce more.

 

In my 18 cruises, 5 on Celebrity, I've found the vast majority of my fellow cruisers do in fact appreciate the refinement of a cruise and a dress standard. Although not truely representative of all, when polls have been done here on Cruise Critic, the overwhelming majority have indicated their desire to maintain those standards.

 

Every person that chooses to dress down deminishes the overall elegance a little. Fact: in my five Celebrity cruises I've seen almost no one ignoring at least the spirit of the dressy venue.