WDW Tragedy

[e2011]

I would not interpret a "no swimming" sign as "beware of alligators". I was just at a resort in So. Carolina that had signs that said "Avoid lagoon, may be alligators."

 

I feel very badly for this family and their tragedy. It's a sad reminder that you can never know what life has in store for you.

 

I agree. Most people would not equate "No Swimming" with "Caution, Alligators." I would guess the vast majority of tourists at Disney would think the no swimming sign was because the water is so dirty. This boy was in 12 inches of water at the beach side movie night. That was confirmed by the Sheriffs office. Today Disney said they will be posting Alligator warning signs all over the resort where there are bodies of water. I also suspect they will put retaining walls along the lake at their "beach" areas to deter people form getting near the water. For those who don't know alligators hunting tactics, that boy could have been just near the waters edge, not even in the water, and that gator could have taken him in an instant. I have seen it happen with dogs who were not in the water at all, just near the edge. True they typically will not attack adults that way but a 2 year old looks to be the same size as a dog to a gator. People are getting hung up on what does a no swimming sign really mean. That is irrelevant when you consider what I just described.

Edited June 16, 2016 by e2011

[CanadianDee]

I think by all accounts anyone traveling to Florida should already have the common sense to know to watch for gators anywhere near water in the entire state. I have even been told to watch out for them when making stops at rest areas. While their attacks aren't common, they can and do happen.

 

 

To be fair, a good deal of common sense has to do with common knowledge and experience. I disagree with your statement above. For most of us unfamiliar with Florida/alligators "no swimming" does not equal "look out for the alligators".

[moki'smommy]

No, most northerners would not equate "no swimming" with "watch out for alligators." But does it matter? "No Swimming" should mean "Don't go in the water." It isn't my job to question why when the property owner puts a sign up that says, in essence, "don't go in the water."

 

No, the child isn't responsible. The parent who presumably can read is. Of course they will insist that they didn't see the sign, and considering that it was after dark, that might be a reasonable excuse. Did they read any of the info they got when they checked in at the resort? Did it say anything in there about not swimming in the lake? But ultimately, does it matter?

 

As to Disney writing a check...because a customer didn't follow the rules? How much is a 2 year old "worth?" If that sounds crass, I'm sorry. The bottom line is that no amount of money can make up for the loss of a child. But I can't hold Disney responsible for a parent's ignorance.

 

Yes, there will now be signs that say "Beware of alligators, snakes, motor oil, bacteria, and anything else that can exist in the water" just like the sign at Castaway Cay that lists a zillion kinds of wildlife that can hurt you while swimming in the ocean. And they might block off the lagoon from the beach. But that is a legal issue. They already said "No Swimming." The next time, no one can contend that they didn't know WHY they couldn't swim in the icky, murky water. Disney did not place alligators in the water (or snakes or bacteria) or do anything to encourage them to be there. They exist in the water in Florida. There might be some level of liability if, as one poster suggested, this child was grabbed from the shore by a gator. But that's not what happened. The child was violating a posted sign.

 

I'm sorry for the loss the parents are enduring. No check from Disney will make that "better."

[CanadianDee]

No' date=' most northerners would not equate "no swimming" with "watch out for alligators." But does it matter? "No Swimming" should mean "Don't go in the water." It isn't my job to question why when the property owner puts a sign up that says, in essence, "don't go in the water."

 

...

 

I'm sorry for the loss the parents are enduring. No check from Disney will make that "better."[/quote']

 

I'm Canadian and we're not quite so litigious as our southern neighbours so that doesn't even factor into my feelings about this.

 

Death - whether from an alligator in Florida or an avalanche in Banff - is a high price to pay for touristy ignorance. A warning of alligators has far more danger cache than "no swimming", as does an avalanche warning rather than a no skiing sign in our neck of the woods.

 

Bottom line. No one wants people, most particularly little children, to die if it can be prevented with a more dire and more accurate warning.

 

I wouldn't venture into a no-swimming area anyway, but I'd definitely give a beware-of-alligators a super duper wide berth.

[Ex techie]

Firstly, I want to say this was an absolutely tragic incident, and my heart goes out to the parents and siblings of the poor child.

It is heartbreaking, and so so terrible for the family to have lost a little one in this way.

 

e2011,

I am assuming, so maybe wrong that your reply to mom2tcdx2 with "wow" was in regard to the last part of their post which I have quoted below.

 

Truly it is very sad, and also disappointing too for someone to say Disney just needs to write the check. Gone are the days of common sense and people being responsible for their own actions.

 

Wow.

 

I too believe that Disney do not owe the family compensation for what happened, however tragic it was due to the fact that the gators are not owned by Disney, they are not part of an attraction or escaped animals from an attraction, but native wildlife that live in waterways in developed urban areas of Florida.

Disney have admitted that they were aware of gators in the lagoon and were actively monitoring them, and removing ones that had grown to a size that could cause injury or death as and when they found them.

This is the first incident of a human being attacked by a gator on Disney property I believe, since the park opened.

 

As to signage.

Obviously the no swimming signs were not compressive enough to enable everyone to interpret them as do not enter the water.

I agree the signage could have and should have been better thought out, but again, AFAIK this is the first incident involving a gator attacking a human being on Disney property since the park opened.

 

Maybe the signs should have read:

 

Please stay away from the waters edge and do not enter the water due to natural Floridan wildlife that may be present and can cause harm or injury.

 

They obviously risk assessed the chances of a large gator, capable of snatching a small child from 12" deep of water with their monitoring of the inhabitents as a very low risk, or not a risk.

Not all risk assessments are 100% risk free, and incidents happen.

 

I agree that they will now most likely build a fence or barrier between the waters edge, that will no doubt be plastered with signs telling people to not cross the barrier, and as they have conceded, warnings that gators may be present.

And that is sad in itself that people need to be warned to not do risky things when in unfamiliar places.

 

This is a terrible terrible incident. But Disney did not put gators or lose their stock of gators in the lagoon, native ones to the area will seek out large bodies of water to live in.

And Disney took steps to monitor native wildlife that may try to make it their home, catch them, and either relocate them or destroy them.

 

Any area of water may find a gator in it in FL.

That is something that can be common in Florida, and people visiting should know and consider that as they may be staying off property.

 

I do not blame the parents in ANYWAY, but it was foolish of them to allow a 2 yr old to wade in 12" of open water, at past 9pm so dark as sunset is around 8pm.

 

Disney have the tag line of the happiest place on earth, but it does not say and include the safest place on earth. There is only so much they can do.

And unfortunately, many parents let their guard down way way too far, put their parenting on vacation head on as soon as they reach the parks, or the ships, and allow both themselves and their families to enter situations, or relax their fear and danger senses when they are at Disney.

 

As you've been to Castaway, I'm sure you've seen the warning signs they have there on the beaches because so many people do not even think to consider it is the ocean, and not a Disney swimming pool off the beach.

 

I hope think they will install signs like those, so that people will appreciate that there is only so much any park or resort owner can do to protect their Guests against making ill judged decisions that they would never make at home or on a beach elsewhere.

 

My thoughts and condolences are with the family and their lost child.

 

ex techie

 

[Ex techie]

To be fair, a good deal of common sense has to do with common knowledge and experience. I disagree with your statement above. For most of us unfamiliar with Florida/alligators "no swimming" does not equal "look out for the alligators".

 

 

 

I'm Canadian and we're not quite so litigious as our southern neighbours so that doesn't even factor into my feelings about this.

 

Death - whether from an alligator in Florida or an avalanche in Banff - is a high price to pay for touristy ignorance. A warning of alligators has far more danger cache than "no swimming", as does an avalanche warning rather than a no skiing sign in our neck of the woods.

 

Bottom line. No one wants people, most particularly little children, to die if it can be prevented with a more dire and more accurate warning.

 

I wouldn't venture into a no-swimming area anyway, but I'd definitely give a beware-of-alligators a super duper wide berth.

 

CanadianDee,

 

You have raised good valid points.

However if you flip them around, what if the tourists were from FL visiting a ski resort?

 

How and when does the resort post avalanche warning signs?

Most likely based upon the current conditions and historical data they constantly monitor. No?

 

And this weekly?

 

Here is a Swiss sign.

Doesn't explicitly say no snowboarding, it indicates skiing.?

 

So if they do not judge a slope to have a risk of an avalanche and one occurs, who is to blame?

Mother Nature.

 

There does have to be a level of self responsibility attached to life and living, without expecting the government, local state and business owners telling you implicitly every possible minor difference between actions they tell you not to do something, the reason why not, and the possible outcome.

 

Disney World and Land could not look they way they do, and it would scare the **** out of you if they did.

 

 

ex techie

[Stratus22]

I feel very sorry for what the family is going through. I could not imagine going through what they are. Keeping children safe is always top priority and to ignore such signs was a costly mistake on the part of the family. How many signs do we need to add to the signs already given. No swimming means no Swimming. No parking means no parking, Do not drink the Bleach means do not drink the bleach. When Growing up, NO meant NO. Again, who is to blame well hard to say.

[bigsky]

I think most people know that alligators are in Fl waters. Can't assume that all know. I would also expect and hope that if they had signs posted about the warnings of alligators, that may have deterred that parent from allowing his son to wade in the waters. No swimming doesn't mean no wading. If other hotels had the correct signs, then why didn't they? I feel the resort is responsible and will pay for it, literally. Unfortunately, no amount of money will bring their precious son back. Very sad for any parent to go through!!

[madiaka]

They are going to end up being liable because other hotels provide signage everywhere. If you see it during the day, you know to be more cautious and mindful at various locations on property at all times. No swimming doesn't mean no wading. They told us no swimming on Miami Beach one day but did not say that we couldn't get our feet wet. Just that there was a rip current around.

 

Below is a quote from someone that had a question awhile ago.

 

Based on people's circumstances, geographic locations, background, etc - not everyone knows or is exposed to the danger and I don't think it means they are foolish and/ or don't have common sense. They are just unaware.

 

"

We just got back from Orlando. we did not stay on property but at Marriott Grande Vista. It was very nice hotel and we enjoyed it very much . It was certainly a different kind of vacation than what we are used to. The thing is all through out the property there were signs stating not to feed the alligators and later that week we saw one swimming around in their lake. The shock wore off eventually and I figured Floridians deal with this all the time. My question is,are there alligators around ....."

[CanadianDee]

CanadianDee,

 

You have raised good valid points.

However if you flip them around, what if the tourists were from FL visiting a ski resort?

 

 

Actually, that was my point.

 

Ski resorts routinely post the avalache risk hazard. They don't say "don't go here"; they identify the area as an avalanche risk.

 

I knew there were alligators in Florida, but it didn't occur to me that they'd be lurking in a man-made lake area. I would've thought the area would be groomed for alligator hazards. If that makes me a stupid tourist, I can only say I'm not alone. AND I'm not uneducable. If there's a sign by a man-made body of water warning of alligators, you can be damn sure I'm not going near it.

 

And yeah, there's always a risk with Mother Nature and consequences for disrepecting her. But this was a tourist area and it's reasonable to assume many tourists - not native to the area, or even the continent - wouldn't be savvy about this particular risk.

Edited June 17, 2016 by CanadianDee

[CanadianDee]

How many signs do we need to add to the signs already given.

 

Just one.

Edited June 17, 2016 by CanadianDee

[meatloafsfan]

I agree. Most people would not equate "No Swimming" with "Caution, Alligators." I would guess the vast majority of tourists at Disney would think the no swimming sign was because the water is so dirty. This boy was in 12 inches of water at the beach side movie night. That was confirmed by the Sheriffs office. Today Disney said they will be posting Alligator warning signs all over the resort where there are bodies of water. I also suspect they will put retaining walls along the lake at their "beach" areas to deter people form getting near the water. For those who don't know alligators hunting tactics, that boy could have been just near the waters edge, not even in the water, and that gator could have taken him in an instant. I have seen it happen with dogs who were not in the water at all, just near the edge. True they typically will not attack adults that way but a 2 year old looks to be the same size as a dog to a gator. People are getting hung up on what does a no swimming sign really mean. That is irrelevant when you consider what I just described.

 

The average height of a two year old is between 34-36 inches tall. If the child was in 12 inches of water, that was around a third of their height. That should be considered "swimming".

[MexicoMark]

I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, I believe Disney is 99% responsible for what happened to that little boy. It has been reported that multiple Disney employee’s had addressed their concerns regarding Gators in the lagoon, yet Disney turned a blind eye.

 

If you know that there are Gators in the water then why would you allow patrons access to the water’s edge? Regardless of whether this child was in a foot of water, a few inches or at the water’s edge does not matter, a Gator can come on land and easily snatch a small kid. Disney placing Gator warning signs is not enough they need to prevent access to any water that has Gators in it.

 

Having just returned for Disney World I never once thought about Alligators, seeing what just happened I feel pretty dumb because I would not have hesitated allowing my two boys to go to the water’s edge. I hope Disney puts up barriers along with signage to protect their guests.

[ArthurUSCG]

Actually, that was my point.

 

Ski resorts routinely post the avalache risk hazard. They don't say "don't go here"; they identify the area as an avalanche risk.

 

I knew there were alligators in Florida, but it didn't occur to me that they'd be lurking in a man-made lake area. I would've thought the area would be groomed for alligator hazards. If that makes me a stupid tourist, I can only say I'm not alone. AND I'm not uneducable. If there's a sign by a man-made body of water warning of alligators, you can be damn sure I'm not going near it.

 

And yeah, there's always a risk with Mother Nature and consequences for disrepecting her. But this was a tourist area and it's reasonable to assume many tourists - not native to the area, or even the continent - wouldn't be savvy about this particular risk.

 

It is not just lakes and natural waterways, gaters love pool too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/us/19gator.html?_r=0

[CanadianDee]

It is not just lakes and natural waterways, gaters love pool too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/us/19gator.html?_r=0

 

That's it. Not going.

 

LOL. Kidding. Going.

 

I think the clear water in a pool would offer a visual advantage. I'll certainly look for apex predators before I dive in though. :)

 

I will credit this thread for making me much more alligator-aware.

Edited June 17, 2016 by CanadianDee

[carterd2002]

That's it. Not going.

 

LOL. Kidding. Going.

 

I think the clear water in a pool would offer a visual advantage. I'll certainly look for apex predators before I dive in though. :)

 

I will credit this thread for making me much more alligator-aware.

 

Yep. Our pool is not screened-in but we have yet to find a gator in there, thankfully:D

[CanadianDee]

Yep. Our pool is not screened-in but we have yet to find a gator in there, thankfully:D

 

Thank goodness. Hey, can we hang at your house while we're in Florida? I feel like it might be the only safe place. :D

[carterd2002]

Thank goodness. Hey, can we hang at your house while we're in Florida? I feel like it might be the only safe place. :D

 

Absolutely! We live in a small town an hour's drive away. Our house is just 150 yards from a lake. No worries, no gator sightings lately, but we have gotten a TON of rain and the ditches and canals are very high right now, which does make it easier for the gators to travel further inland.

 

What happened to that little boy was tragic, but fatal attacks are very rare, so please don't let it hinder your plans to visit our beautiful state.

[e2011]

No' date=' most northerners would not equate "no swimming" with "watch out for alligators." But does it matter? "No Swimming" should mean "Don't go in the water." It isn't my job to question why when the property owner puts a sign up that says, in essence, "don't go in the water."

 

No, the child isn't responsible. The parent who presumably can read is. Of course they will insist that they didn't see the sign, and considering that it was after dark, that might be a reasonable excuse. Did they read any of the info they got when they checked in at the resort? Did it say anything in there about not swimming in the lake? But ultimately, does it matter?

 

As to Disney writing a check...because a customer didn't follow the rules? How much is a 2 year old "worth?" If that sounds crass, I'm sorry. The bottom line is that no amount of money can make up for the loss of a child. But I can't hold Disney responsible for a parent's ignorance.

 

Yes, there will now be signs that say "Beware of alligators, snakes, motor oil, bacteria, and anything else that can exist in the water" just like the sign at Castaway Cay that lists a zillion kinds of wildlife that can hurt you while swimming in the ocean. And they might block off the lagoon from the beach. But that is a legal issue. They already said "No Swimming." The next time, no one can contend that they didn't know WHY they couldn't swim in the icky, murky water. Disney did not place alligators in the water (or snakes or bacteria) or do anything to encourage them to be there. They exist in the water in Florida. There might be some level of liability if, as one poster suggested, this child was grabbed from the shore by a gator. But that's not what happened. The child was violating a posted sign.

 

I'm sorry for the loss the parents are enduring. No check from Disney will make that "better."[/quote']

 

Have to disagree with you. They obeyed the sign. The child was NOT swimming. You are coming off kinda of harsh. A good attorney will ask two questions to a jury.... would a reasonable and prudent person expect their child could be eaten by an alligator if the child waded in ankle deep water at the beach that Disney created on the lake. And were there any warning signs about dangerous wildlife? $3-$5 million easy considering emotional devastation. When I say Disney is responsible I am only looking at from a potential jury trial in a litigation. I have some experience in this area. I can assure you there is no way on earth Disney will go to trial over this incident. Big company vs. parents that lost a child at the Happiest Place on Earth. The publicity to Disney would be devastating. They will write the check, change the signs and build the beach barriers. And they should write the check because they knew about the gators since 1971 and took a gamble that their gator extraction efforts would keep this from happening. They were wrong. There should be the same standard to notify people of the wildlife in the lake just as they do at Castaway Cay. The fact they do it on the island and not at WDW would actually demonstrate a breech of their own standards.

Edited June 17, 2016 by e2011

[Jestocost]

They will write the check, change the signs and build the beach barriers.

 

Barriers are under construction at both the Grand Floridian and Polynesian at this very moment.

[moki'smommy]

Have to disagree with you. They obeyed the sign. The child was NOT swimming. You are coming off kinda of harsh. A good attorney will ask two questions to a jury.... would a reasonable and prudent person expect their child could be eaten by an alligator if the child waded in ankle deep water at the beach that Disney created on the lake. And were there any warning signs about dangerous wildlife? $3-$5 million easy considering emotional devastation. When I say Disney is responsible I am only looking at from a potential jury trial in a litigation. I have some experience in this area. I can assure you there is no way on earth Disney will go to trial over this incident. Big company vs. parents that lost a child at the Happiest Place on Earth. The publicity to Disney would be devastating. They will write the check, change the signs and build the beach barriers. And they should write the check because they knew about the gators since 1971 and took a gamble that their gator extraction efforts would keep this from happening. They were wrong. There should be the same standard to notify people of the wildlife in the lake just as they do at Castaway Cay. The fact they do it on the island and not at WDW would actually demonstrate a breech of their own standards.

 

Well, you are partially right. But according to the sheriff, the child was in 12 inch deep water at the time of the attack. Since the average height of a 2 year old boy is 36 inches, that's not "wading in ankle deep water." 12 inches on me (an adult female) is mid calf. On a 2 year old, it would be more like mid thigh.

 

You are correct that Disney will keep this out of court, and in our litigation prone society, there will probably be a check written. And as a result, we'll all pay a little more for our WDW vacations...and the family will have money, but no child. No one wins except the lawyer who collects a fat fee.

[Ex techie]

Barriers are under construction at both the Grand Floridian and Polynesian at this very moment.

 

Yes. Well a rope fence.

 

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

new signs:

 

 

ex techie

[e2011]

Well' date=' you are partially right. But according to the sheriff, the child was in 12 inch deep water at the time of the attack. Since the average height of a 2 year old boy is 36 inches, that's not "wading in ankle deep water." 12 inches on me (an adult female) is mid calf. On a 2 year old, it would be more like mid thigh.

 

You are correct that Disney will keep this out of court, and in our litigation prone society, there will probably be a check written. And as a result, we'll all pay a little more for our WDW vacations...and the family will have money, but no child. No one wins except the lawyer who collects a fat fee.[/quote']

 

True. Nothing can replace the child.

[sammiedawg]

I disagree with some of the posts in this thread, I believe Disney is 99% responsible for what happened to that little boy. It has been reported that multiple Disney employee’s had addressed their concerns regarding Gators in the lagoon, yet Disney turned a blind eye.

 

If you know that there are Gators in the water then why would you allow patrons access to the water’s edge? Regardless of whether this child was in a foot of water, a few inches or at the water’s edge does not matter, a Gator can come on land and easily snatch a small kid. Disney placing Gator warning signs is not enough they need to prevent access to any water that has Gators in it.

 

Having just returned for Disney World I never once thought about Alligators, seeing what just happened I feel pretty dumb because I would not have hesitated allowing my two boys to go to the water’s edge. I hope Disney puts up barriers along with signage to protect their guests.

 

Well said.

Some of the comments in this thread are harsh and heartless as if Disney can do no wrong.

We walked along the lake in October with our small grandchildren and I didn't think once about alligators. We are northerners. We saw beach chairs fairly close to the shoreline and it was a lovely inviting space.,

I was there with my own young kids years ago and I remember beach chairs on the sandy shore. I don't remember if we got our feet wet in the lake water but we may have. I didn't think once about alligators then either.

 

No swimming signs were totally inadequate to warn tourists about alligator infested lakes. This little boy and his family were not swimming. It sounds like the little guy had his feet in the shoreline water.

 

My heart breaks every time I think of this beautiful child and his family.

Edited June 18, 2016 by sammiedawg