WDW Tragedy

[Ex techie]

Just remember, the Grand Floridian beach resort opened in 1998, and this is the first instance of this happening in 28 years.

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

No swimming signs were totally inadequate to warn tourists about alligator infested lakes. This little boy and his family were not swimming. It sounds like the little guy had his feet in the shoreline water.

 

My heart breaks every time I think of this beautiful child and his family.

 

Sorry, but the lagoon is not infested with gators.

The size of gators living there was being managed, and those that could cause harm or injury, let alone death were being removed.

 

One large enough to have done this either was not noticed, or could have recently entered the lagoon.

 

Disney can do wrong.

So can parents. You obviously were ignorant of gators in large spaces of water in Florida when you took your kids and your grandkids there from your home in the north.

 

The best person to protect your family is yourself. No one else.

And you should never rely on someone else to do your job for you.

 

ex techie

[e2011]

Just remember, the Grand Floridian beach resort opened in 1998, and this is the first instance of this happening in 28 years.

 

ex techie

 

once is too much.

[Ex techie]

once is too much.

 

Yes it is. I fully agree.

 

And now actions have been taken to make a once in 28 years incident the persons responsibility of even entering the water not possible without "legally" disobeying the signs and fence.

 

It is tragic.

 

Money will not help the family grieve, or replace the child, so why you feel it is deserved is beyond me.

 

ex techie

Edited June 18, 2016 by Ex techie

[Ex techie]

Just remember, the Grand Floridian beach resort opened in 1998, and this is the first instance of this happening in 28 years.

 

The above post should read 1988, not 1998.

 

ex techie

 

ex techie

Edited June 18, 2016 by Ex techie

[e2011]

Yes it is. I fully agree.

 

And now actions have been taken to make a once in 28 years incident the persons responsibility of even entering the water not possible without "legally" disobeying the signs and fence.

 

It is tragic.

 

Money will not help the family grieve, or replace the child, so why you feel it is deserved is beyond me.

 

ex techie

 

I understand. Its the way the system works. When you are a company and you are negligent and someone gets hurt, you pay. Does it replace the child. Of course not. Will it help the family pay for mental health counseling for the rest of their lives? Yes. I will not debate weather or not Disney is negligent. I think they are and some others don't Everyone is entitled to their opinion. From a pure legal perspective, I have already addressed that issue. We can all agree its tragic. As a side note, the golf course where I play regularly has "Caution, Alligators and Poisonous Snakes" signs at every water feature and at the 1st hole.

Edited June 18, 2016 by e2011

[CanadianDee]

I understand. Its the way the system works. When you are a company and you are negligent and someone gets hurt, you pay. Does it replace the child. Of course not. Will it help the family pay for mental health counseling for the rest of their lives? Yes. I will not debate weather or not Disney is negligent. I think they are and some others don't Everyone is entitled to their opinion. From a pure legal perspective, I have already addressed that issue. We can all agree its tragic. As a side note, the golf course where I play regularly has "Caution, Alligators and Poisonous Snakes" signs at every water feature and at the 1st hole.

 

Totally agree on all points.

 

And a sign warning unfamiliar visitors (in an area so popular with foreign visitors) of the danger of alligators - as on your golf course - is all most people want/need.

Edited June 18, 2016 by CanadianDee

[iceman93]

Totally agree on all points.

 

And a sign warning unfamiliar visitors (in an area so popular with foreign visitors) of the danger of alligators - as on your golf course - is all most people want/need.

 

But pretty soon Disney World will be littered with danger/warning/caution signs like any ladder one can buy today. "Lightning can kill you." "Don't eat the laundry detergent." "Don't exercise outside when it's hot and humid." And on and on. Then those signs become so ubiquitous that they become noise and no one pays attention to them anymore.

[CupcakeSusie]

Well said.

Some of the comments in this thread are harsh and heartless as if Disney can do no wrong.

We walked along the lake in October with our small grandchildren and I didn't think once about alligators. We are northerners. We saw beach chairs fairly close to the shoreline and it was a lovely inviting space.,

I was there with my own young kids years ago and I remember beach chairs on the sandy shore. I don't remember if we got our feet wet in the lake water but we may have. I didn't think once about alligators then either.

 

No swimming signs were totally inadequate to warn tourists about alligator infested lakes. This little boy and his family were not swimming. It sounds like the little guy had his feet in the shoreline water.

 

My heart breaks every time I think of this beautiful child and his family.

I agree Sammiedawg. This is a heartbreaking tragedy and some of the comments are really harsh :( . This poor family saw their precious baby and brother die. They will relive it over and over for the rest of their lives.

 

Stories are coming out that Disney fobbed off reports of earlier alligator sightings and one where a gator lunged at a 5 year old boy. The father of the boy said he was told that the gators are harmless 'park pets'.

 

 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/warnings/rich-guests-fed-alligators-while-disney-world-looked-the-other-way/news-story/d2ab2d4ef0e5ba444d6d3df8594a42de

[moki'smommy]

Disney has now placed a rope "fence" with signs showing photos of alligators and snakes. Does this make a 2 year old any more safe? He certainly can't read the signs. He can easily run under the fence. He MIGHT relate to the pictures on the signs. People here have stated that alligators can come up on shore--we have seen them sunning along the road!

 

A young child is only safer now than a week ago if the parent(s) take appropriate action and keep children away from water in Florida. How far away is far enough?

 

Disney has made itself safer. Several alligators have been removed from the lagoon. Now, if an incident involving an alligator or snake happens, the lawyers will have to work a little harder because Disney can prove that they "warned" their customers. But what if it isn't an alligator or snake? What if a wild animal bites a child and the animal is found to be rabid? OK, that's not an immediate death sentence if realized in time, but at best the series of injections is painful and costly. Will the guest from Hawaii argue that since Hawaii is a rabies free state that they cannot possibly be expected to realize that a squirrel on WDW property could have rabies?

 

Will we next be adding warnings to those cups at WDW that coffee may be hot?

 

I'm not saying that Disney can do no wrong. But there needs to be a place for personal and parental responsibility.

 

Disney didn't put the alligators, snakes, or bacteria in the water. I don't know what they do to try to "manage" the wildlife in the resort. But a natural predator choosing to live in a lagoon is different that Disney failing to protect a guest from something that the company CAN control--failure to mark or clean up a spill that results in someone else falling, failure to fence off construction equipment resulting in an injury when a child decides to check out the "big truck" faster than a parent restrained him, or an injury from one of the animals they intentionally brought to the property who may escape from an enclosure. These are clearly something that Disney control and should be expected to do so. If it were possible to remove every alligator from the resort today, there would be more in the area next week.

Edited June 18, 2016 by moki'smommy

[e2011]

Disney has now placed a rope "fence" with signs showing photos of alligators and snakes. Does this make a 2 year old any more safe? He certainly can't read the signs.

 

Yes because now the parents have been made aware of the danger. I agree that if a parent reads the new gator sign and still lets a child go in the water Disney is not liable. But in this particular case the parents were not warned about the gators. Also if you read the Orlando paper it is coming out that Disney did have a near miss with a gator and a child in the past but chose not to put warning signs. They have documented reports and video of people feeding gators at the lake yet they did not even post a "Do not feed the wildlife" signs which is what they have at Animal Kingdom! The new signs they just put up are perfect. In the future they will not be liable. But in this case they are.

Edited June 18, 2016 by e2011

[CanadianDee]

Disney has now placed a rope "fence" with signs showing photos of alligators and snakes. Does this make a 2 year old any more safe? He certainly can't read the signs. He can easily run under the fence. He MIGHT relate to the pictures on the signs. People here have stated that alligators can come up on shore--we have seen them sunning along the road!

 

A young child is only safer now than a week ago if the parent(s) take appropriate action and keep children away from water in Florida.

 

Correct. Visitors - like me - who aren't familiar with the level of risk now know. A week ago I wouldn't have thought twice about walking along the water's edge with my granddaughter.

 

I keep saying the same thing. Alligators aren't indigenous to my area - I would have had no idea that a theme park catering to visitors from around the world wouldn't be able to purge their own man-made bodies of water from apex predators.

 

Now' date=' with a simple sign, i know. There is a danger of alligators here. It's not about staying out of the water, it's about maintaining a vigilance for the things that might COME OUT OF THE WATER.

 

But pretty soon Disney World will be littered with danger/warning/caution signs like any ladder one can buy today. "Lightning can kill you." "Don't eat the laundry detergent." "Don't exercise outside when it's hot and humid." And on and on. Then those signs become so ubiquitous that they become noise and no one pays attention to them anymore.

 

These signs won't be ubiquitous to international visitors - or folks from Nebraska - who have no experience with alligators.

 

I'm about done here. For those of you who think some warning signs are too much of an effort or detract from the surroundings or whatever, i don't see much chance of changing your mind. For my part, I'm glad Disney has decided to post warnings.

Edited June 18, 2016 by CanadianDee

[IsanTom]

This is a cruise forum!

[e2011]

This is a cruise forum!

 

Cruising is fun. Especially on Disney!

[sammiedawg]

But pretty soon Disney World will be littered with danger/warning/caution signs like any ladder one can buy today. "Lightning can kill you." "Don't eat the laundry detergent." "Don't exercise outside when it's hot and humid." And on and on. Then those signs become so ubiquitous that they become noise and no one pays attention to them anymore.

 

How is a sign posted in a key area warning of alligators "noise"?

A child died in an alligator attack right next to a beach and lake that are prominent features of staying in a monorail hotel.

It's not like this attack happened in an obscure Disney location.

[alaskawdw12]

Disney didn't put the alligators' date=' snakes, or bacteria in the water. I don't know what they do to try to "manage" the wildlife in the resort. But a natural predator choosing to live in a lagoon is different that Disney failing to protect a guest from something that the company CAN control--failure to mark or clean up a spill that results in someone else falling, failure to fence off construction equipment resulting in an injury when a child decides to check out the "big truck" faster than a parent restrained him, or an injury from one of the animals they intentionally brought to the property who may escape from an enclosure. These are clearly something that Disney control and should be expected to do so. If it were possible to remove every alligator from the resort today, there would be more in the area next week.[/quote']

 

 

Ah, but Disney created the bodies of water! The "lagoon" is man made. The "beach" is man made to be inviting. There's no reason for a guest to not assume that a fake lagoon built by Disney isn't controlled and maintained free of alligators, especially when there are water sports in the water!! WDW is visited by millions of people from all over the world who know absolutely nothing about Florida. I actually happen to know about the alligators in Florida (and about brain eating bacteria), but still assumed that if I'm allowed to go into that "lagoon" to water ski (including falling into the water and just bobbing there) and allowed to rent tiny paddle boats and stick my hands in the water - that water is treated and safe. "No swimming" means no swimming, it doesn't mean "stay the heck away from the water there are alligators!". I love Disney, they made a mistake and they are fixing it quickly. Since many stories of alligator encounters and pictures of other little kids at the water's edge or with their feet in the water are emerging there's no doubt in my mind the new signs and barriers will save lives.

 

On the entrance sign to every national park where we live it is stated clearly that you should not turn over rocks because snakes and scorpions live under them. This is something we all can tell you in our sleep, as it is ingrained in our brains from a very very young age. But people visiting from around the world, including cold snake-less countries, have to be warned, and they're not idiots for not knowing.

 

As for the money, no it will not bring him back, but it will allow the family to get all the help they need in the future and allow them to do something in his memory if they so choose.

[Loonbeam]

Actually the argument about water skiing is probably the best one, give that yes, it is considered effectively ok to bob in the water, and that would affect perception of risk..

 

Ah, but Disney created the bodies of water! The "lagoon" is man made. The "beach" is man made to be inviting. There's no reason for a guest to not assume that a fake lagoon built by Disney isn't controlled and maintained free of alligators, especially when there are water sports in the water!! WDW is visited by millions of people from all over the world who know absolutely nothing about Florida. I actually happen to know about the alligators in Florida (and about brain eating bacteria), but still assumed that if I'm allowed to go into that "lagoon" to water ski (including falling into the water and just bobbing there) and allowed to rent tiny paddle boats and stick my hands in the water - that water is treated and safe. "No swimming" means no swimming, it doesn't mean "stay the heck away from the water there are alligators!". I love Disney, they made a mistake and they are fixing it quickly. Since many stories of alligator encounters and pictures of other little kids at the water's edge or with their feet in the water are emerging there's no doubt in my mind the new signs and barriers will save lives.

 

On the entrance sign to every national park where we live it is stated clearly that you should not turn over rocks because snakes and scorpions live under them. This is something we all can tell you in our sleep, as it is ingrained in our brains from a very very young age. But people visiting from around the world, including cold snake-less countries, have to be warned, and they're not idiots for not knowing.

 

As for the money, no it will not bring him back, but it will allow the family to get all the help they need in the future and allow them to do something in his memory if they so choose.

[moki'smommy]

You know, the water sports on the lagoon are the worst point I've heard for Disney. The fact that they rent paddle boats and water ski equipment for use on the lagoon would at least imply that they were not worried about either the bacteria or the wildlife...which is a little frightening.

 

It isn't something my family ever did, but we've certainly seen the "notices" of the availability of the rentals and seen people doing these activities.

 

If Disney knew about these dangers in the water, there is no justification for providing activities that encouraged people to be in/on the water. And it stretches the imagination to believe that they somehow didn't know about the danger when their own original water park was closed due to the bacterial issue.

 

And I, as an occasional visitor, have seen a couple of alligators in "non guest" areas of the property. There is no way that Disney could not know they existed.

 

Yup, the lady bought this argument.

[ArthurUSCG]

There is a far different exposure level between being in a boat and being in the water.

 

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[moki'smommy]

There is a far different exposure level between being in a boat and being in the water.

 

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True, and being in a boat doesn't bother me. But water skiing is being in the lake. I have an issue with signs reading "No Swimming," while at the same time Disney makes money off of water skiing in the same lake. My reversal of opinion is based on the idea that either it is safe to be in the lake or it is not. It can't be safe when you are paying to do it and unsafe when you walk in from the beach.

 

They also rent fishing boats and boats for various other activities. I suppose a gator could come out of the water and jump into a boat, but somehow this doesn't seem very likely. And I guess there is always a risk of a boat not remaining in the position in which it is intended to be operated--again, a stretch if it is being used properly. Those activities have an inherent risk which you accept when doing them.

 

On the water is one thing, but I still can't give Disney the ability to have it both OK and not OK to be IN the water.

[alaska_planner]

it's been reported that a family from san diego had an alligator encounter at WDW in april last year - at the Coronado Springs Resort.

 

the father took a picture of the alligator and showed it to the hotel manager, whose response was, "Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."

 

the father was so upset with that response that upon returning home, wrote a letter to the resort that said, "I hope I'm wrong, but at some point, I bet I'm going to read about you guys where one of your resident pets killed somebody. And I hope to god it never happens because it's gonna be on your shoulders."

 

here's one of the several articles online about it:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646647/Lawyer-says-warned-Disney-alligators-year-one-approached-son-wading-lagoon-told-resident-pets.html

[moki'smommy]

it's been reported that a family from san diego had an alligator encounter at WDW in april last year - at the Coronado Springs Resort.

 

the father took a picture of the alligator and showed it to the hotel manager, whose response was, "Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."

 

the father was so upset with that response that upon returning home, wrote a letter to the resort that said, "I hope I'm wrong, but at some point, I bet I'm going to read about you guys where one of your resident pets killed somebody. And I hope to god it never happens because it's gonna be on your shoulders."

 

here's one of the several articles online about it:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646647/Lawyer-says-warned-Disney-alligators-year-one-approached-son-wading-lagoon-told-resident-pets.html

 

This also has been replayed, word for word, on US TV many times since the boy's death. While worrisome, I found it less compelling than the issue of Disney renting equipment for water activities. First, while I have no reason to doubt this individual, there is no proof that the photo was taken on Disney property. Nor is there any proof of the response of the manager on duty at the resort. Even if both are totally accurate, I see a difference in the response of a single individual when compared to what is obviously a Disney corporate policy (to rent equipment for water activities). I also question what is enticing this individual to go public with his experience now.

 

Early on in the DCL experience, Disney made a big deal of advertising the barrier they had erected around the family beach and snorkel area, specifically stating that this would keep out the larger and dangerous wildlife. You won't see any mention of this now as it didn't work and has been replaced with the warning sign. However, I was around for all the safety hype in 1998, so was quite surprised 5-6 years ago to see a large barracuda in the snorkel area, swimming freely near guests rather than close to the bottom. I spoke to the lifeguard who said something along the lines of "Oh, you saw Barry. There is a whole family of them in the lagoon. The problem we have is that they are so used to people being around that they have become overly "friendly" and scare the guests. She also said that they try to relocate them periodically but "the little ones are still there and they grow up." OK, I'd done enough reading about safety before I did any snorkeling to have a basic idea of safety matters, but still found this to be a concern. My daughter's approach is to not go in the water as she has proof that DCL's "safety net" doesn't work.

 

Disney has obviously learned that their best efforts can't control wildlife either in Florida or in the Bahamas. Unfortunately, it took a death to prove this point in Florida.

[MexicoMark]

True' date=' and being in a boat doesn't bother me. But water skiing is being in the lake. I have an issue with signs reading "No Swimming," while at the same time Disney makes money off of water skiing in the same lake. My reversal of opinion is based on the idea that either it is safe to be in the lake or it is not. It can't be safe when you are paying to do it and unsafe when you walk in from the beach.

 

They also rent fishing boats and boats for various other activities. I suppose a gator could come out of the water and jump into a boat, but somehow this doesn't seem very likely. And I guess there is always a risk of a boat not remaining in the position in which it is intended to be operated--again, a stretch if it is being used properly. Those activities have an inherent risk which you accept when doing them.

 

On the water is one thing, but I still can't give Disney the ability to have it both OK and not OK to be IN the water.[/quote']

 

 

Great post! I completely agree.

[Loonbeam]

This. The more I hear about it, the more I move to this position as well. While there may be perfectly good reasons for the dichotomy (besides alligators and water quality), it sends a very clear mixed message regarding concerns and permissions.

 

Let me be clear. I still don't think its a good idea to have a toddler wading in inches deep water on a dark night in a not very well lit area, regardless of other factors. (And I remind people there is a difference between blame and pointing out things that could have been done better).

 

With that in mind, its become increasingly obvious Disney was at least aware of the risk and didn't feel it was significant (a not unreasonable position given the lack of incidents to this point). The question in my mind now is "How much information should Disney have provided so that people could make a reasonable risk assessment on water activities, etc". That's going to be a matter for debate and possibly the courts. (Personally, my opinion (now) is that there should have been better signage and a visual but not physical barrier, plus notification to watercraft and watersports users.

 

It's worth noting strictly from a business standpoint, Disney is insulated from claims regarding the water activities themselves because someone else provides the services, but that doesn't insulate them from the point about giving authorization to use them...

 

In short, as often happens, as more data comes out, the situation becomes far less cut and dried than when first news blasted.

 

 

True' date=' and being in a boat doesn't bother me. But water skiing is being in the lake. I have an issue with signs reading "No Swimming," while at the same time Disney makes money off of water skiing in the same lake. My reversal of opinion is based on the idea that either it is safe to be in the lake or it is not. It can't be safe when you are paying to do it and unsafe when you walk in from the beach.

 

They also rent fishing boats and boats for various other activities. I suppose a gator could come out of the water and jump into a boat, but somehow this doesn't seem very likely. And I guess there is always a risk of a boat not remaining in the position in which it is intended to be operated--again, a stretch if it is being used properly. Those activities have an inherent risk which you accept when doing them.

 

On the water is one thing, but I still can't give Disney the ability to have it both OK and not OK to be IN the water.[/quote']

[3KDZ]

Just remember, the Grand Floridian beach resort opened in 1998, and this is the first instance of this happening in 28 years.

 

 

 

ex techie

 

 

 

So what and big deal!! That is now officially a WORTHLESS STATISTIC!! Just ask the family that lost their son.

 

 

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