Enough roll to make you nauseous?

[chengkp75]

I'm quite sure you won't find cubicles in The Netherlands anywhere while Americans seem to be OK working in them, so this might be a cultural difference. But it does amaze me that highly ranked, highly educated, very experienced officers who probably get paid accordingly are OK with sleeping on the couch because some designer didn't think of the difference between pitch and roll making the couch a better option than the bed. Your car which you can only use so many months per year might be more expensive than a decent stabilized bed or cabin.

 

Then again, I wonder why cruise ships have gyroscopes for pool tables while the most expensive suites don't have stabilized beds. That would be at least a gimmick to brag about.

 

Don't kid yourself about the "highly paid" part. Over the 42 years I've been sailing, the salaries have been essentially flat in current dollars, yet the purchasing power of those dollars is about 1/5 of what it was. And these are US salaries, which are higher than others around the world. And crew salary is a very small number when compared to the cargo value or the freight charge, so the cargo takes precedence (sounds kind of like a cruise ship? the passengers take precedence).

[cruising cockroach]

Folks that have spent enough time at sea understand what it means to be in truly rough waters. We have been on many cruises when we hear other passengers complaining about the ship moving...when the amount of movement is hardly enough to disturb a glass of water. If the pools are full, the hot tubs working, and passengers walking...it is not that rough :). When you see 4 foot waves in a ship's pool (this happened to us once) then the ship is starting to rock and roll.

 

Something I wished I had take pictures of but there were at least 2-3' waves in the center pool of the Prinsendam on a TATL sailing a few years back due to pitching. One of the wooden pool ladder steps towards the rear even broke off. The rear pool (post rearward relocation) emptied itself overnight due to rough seas and was never filled again for the duration of the 15 night cruise.

[cruising cockroach]

Then again, I wonder why cruise ships have gyroscopes for pool tables while the most expensive suites don't have stabilized beds.

 

I could think of one reason. The mass of moving parts and nature of the design, if compact, could lead to breakage and severance limbs. Something the low-tech hammock won't do (albeit it stabilises only on one axis).

[Hlitner]

Something I wished I had take pictures of but there were at least 2-3' waves in the center pool of the Prinsendam on a TATL sailing a few years back due to pitching. One of the wooden pool ladder steps towards the rear even broke off. The rear pool (post rearward relocation) emptied itself overnight due to rough seas and was never filled again for the duration of the 15 night cruise.

 

ROFL! We had a similar situation on either the Jewel or Radiance of the Seas (cannot remember which ship) during a repo cruise from Ft Lauderdale to Europe (our first port was Cobh). The day after we left FL, we ran into a big storm that had recently worked its way across the USA. Seas were running 20-30 feet and the Captain tried some minor course changes to get out of the storm. But there was no relief and the big storm followed us all the way to Ireland (where it was awful weather when we arrived). On the 1st sea day they had to drain all the pools and spas. After 3 days, passengers were complaining that they really wanted to swim and sit in the spas. So with the seas having calmed down to about 15 feet, the Captain decided to fill the indoor pool (where we were sitting reading our books). When the pool was near full, the seas got a big rougher and the waves started to build in the pool.. One guy who tried to swim got tossed right out of the pool (he was not hurt and actually thought it was hilarious). All of us sitting around the pool quickly became soaked..but we were all having a fantastic time. This only lasted about 5 minutes before they hit the panic button and quickly drained the pool which stayed empty until after Cobh. On that cruise we had 6 straight days when seas were never less then 15...and often up around 30 feet. It was a great group of passengers, who made the best out of the situation (many of us enjoyed the experience). I am sure there were more then a few passengers and crew who were the color of the sea....but most probably never got out of their cabins. The amazing thing about that crossing was that the Captain somehow got us to our first couple of ports right on time.

 

Hank

[chengkp75]

And what most don't realize about the pools is that while they could simply rope off the pool to keep folks from getting hurt in it, the real problem is stability. The unconstrained moving mass of water that high up, exerts "free surface effect" where a large weight (the water) is free to move back and forth athwartship, and this can have a harmonic effect on the ship's rolling, and actually cause the stability to decrease.

[cruising cockroach]

the real problem is stability. The unconstrained moving mass of water that high up, exerts "free surface effect" where a large weight (the water) is free to move back and forth athwartship, and this can have a harmonic effect on the ship's rolling, and actually cause the stability to decrease.

 

I can see that momentum being problem, when you think a 1 cubic metre = 1 metric ton (more if salt water). Which is probably why some ships like the Celebrity Millennium have these long and narrow pools. Not sure what those would do if there was a lot of pitching.

[chengkp75]

I can see that momentum being problem, when you think a 1 cubic metre = 1 metric ton (more if salt water). Which is probably why some ships like the Celebrity Millennium have these long and narrow pools. Not sure what those would do if there was a lot of pitching.

 

While the free surface would be similar (the amount would vary with the dimensions), longitudinal stability is something we rarely think about, since the "base" of the ship is so long in that direction that to get a ship to "pitchpole" is virtually impossible.

[cruising cockroach]

While the free surface would be similar (the amount would vary with the dimensions), longitudinal stability is something we rarely think about, since the "base" of the ship is so long in that direction that to get a ship to "pitchpole" is virtually impossible.

 

You\'re right that given a 1,000'+ ship, the momentum isn't hat significant. I was actually thinking of the waves that would be created in a long pool if the ship pitched a lot (as in the Prinsendam though that's only ~ 600'), again, not so likely on a long(er) ship.

[AmazedByCruising]

Don't kid yourself about the "highly paid" part. Over the 42 years I've been sailing, the salaries have been essentially flat in current dollars, yet the purchasing power of those dollars is about 1/5 of what it was. And these are US salaries, which are higher than others around the world. And crew salary is a very small number when compared to the cargo value or the freight charge, so the cargo takes precedence (sounds kind of like a cruise ship? the passengers take precedence).

 

I don't think many job types have seen a 80% decrease in pay over the last 4 decades. Any idea why?

[chengkp75]

I don't think many job types have seen a 80% decrease in pay over the last 4 decades. Any idea why?

 

Sure, US maritime wages are coming into line with the rest of the world. While most folks blame the Jones Act and PVSA for the decline of the US merchant marine, it was actually the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 that was the culprit. This act was made by Roosevelt to ensure the US merchant marine was in a state to win the upcoming war he foresaw. This act granted construction subsidies for the difference in cost between building ships in the US and building them overseas, and operating subsidies for the difference in operating cost for a US flag ship over a foreign flag ship. This worked very well in preparing the US for war. After the war, the subsidies continued, and so, when a US shipyard raised their construction costs, or a US maritime union wanted a pay raise, the ship owners just said "fine", because the increase was being paid for by the taxpayers. This lead to ridiculous salaries by the time of Vietnam, when I started, and why everyone I know, when you say your a ship's officer they say, wow, you're making a fortune. Reagan abolished the subsidies, and the maritime industry in the US has been adjusting ever since, with fewer ships (no incentive) and lower wages. My 38 year old son makes nearly twice what I'm making now, working for Liberty Mutual Insurance. Ship's officers make a fine upper middle class income (fair enough, we only work 180 days a year , but most people working a 40 hour week in the US work 260 days (minus holidays and vacation)).

 

International officer and crew wages have seen a gradual degradation as well (not as dramatic as US), as the quality and quantity of mariners declines.