Regal Princess to P&O Aus., Spring 2007

[OzCruise]

So the Pacific Sky is going to Spain? And we're getting the Regal?

 

Oh dear, dear... what a crying shame...:rolleyes:

[Aussie Gal]

Oz Cruise,

 

I agree, for once we are getting a good ship. ;) ;) I will let you know what we think of her when we return from our South American adventure. We will be on her for 21 days, so should know all her faults (if any) by then.

 

Jennie

[Druke I]

OzCruise

 

I wouldn't despair too much.

 

I sailed twice on Pacific Sky as Sky Princess, and twice on Regal Princess with a 3rd booked, and think Regal the nicer ship.

 

She certainly is more reliable mechanically.

[Pam in CA]

Brian... I saw the article in CND too and was a bit stunned at the comment, "This is not a trend." Oh, really? What about the Crown Princess, the Pacific Princess, the Royal Princess and now the Regal Princess? That's not a trend?

 

When the Regal goes, except for the Pacific and Tahitian Princess, there'll be no 'small' ships left for Princess. And no, I don't consider the Sun-class or Coral/Island "small" ships. They're much larger than the Regal and carry 400 - 500 more people.

[Druke I]

I for one place little stock in what Jan Schwartz says. It seems he (or is it she?) has mis-spoken before.

 

Princess has put out some incredibly stupid press releases, including the one that had Sapphire & Diamond crossing the Altalntic after being accepted at the shipbuilders. The authors of that one did not know they were built at MHI, Nagasaki Japan, and were crossing the Pacific!

[cborzill]

I am hoping that when P&O gets the new Grand Class ship being built for them which they will get in the Spring of 2008 to be called Ventura, that Carnival Corp. will decide to send Princess back the Ocean Princess, now known as the Oceana, just like they returned Sea Princess to the Princess fleet.

[bdjam]

Brian... I saw the article in CND too and was a bit stunned at the comment, "This is not a trend." Oh, really? What about the Crown Princess, the Pacific Princess, the Royal Princess and now the Regal Princess? That's not a trend?

 

When the Regal goes, except for the Pacific and Tahitian Princess, there'll be no 'small' ships left for Princess. And no, I don't consider the Sun-class or Coral/Island "small" ships. They're much larger than the Regal and carry 400 - 500 more people.

I agree – it’s hard not to say that this is a trend when by definition it is. I would venture to guess that Swartz is including the Sun Class as part of the “small” ship category, but you’re right - they aren’t small either. I think it’s a matter of maximizing revenue, which the large ship allows them to do. Unfortunately, I don’t think they are able to maximize the quality with a large ship – at least not for my taste. So I think the cruise line will have to decide whether the small-ship devotees are important enough to their bottom line to keep some small ships around and available.

On the other hand, you've got to wonder how Oceania (the new cruise line that's using the R ships) seems to be thriving - according to the "small ship isn't profitable" business model they should have been bankrupt by now. Hmmm :confused:

[Druke I]

Oceania is doing very well, by all reports.

 

We were on their Regatta this past Aug into the Baltic, and enjoyed it very much.

 

We have booked their Nautica, Istanbul to Singapore, 11-06, through the Suez.

 

Both those ships are sisters to Pacific Princess (new) and Tahitian Princess.

[dougnewmanatsea]

how will Princess be able to offer some of the exotic itineraries that they currently offer if they get rid of the Pacific or the Tahitian Princess?

Most of these itineraries can easily be done with much larger ships. Indeed, virtually all of PACIFIC's summer itineraries (her itineraries in Northern winter/Austral summer are sold only in Australia & NZ) are already repeated in (Northern) winter by SAPPHIRE PRINCESS. Tahiti can accomodate much larger ships too.

 

It all comes down to demand... If these itineraries are in enough demand to fill bigger ships, then there is nothing stopping Princess from using them.

 

It seems odd that ship built specifically for cruising in cooler climates would be transferred to the South Pacific.

Well, these ships were designed for warm climates (Caribbean or Mexican Riviera) in winter and cool (Alaska) in summer.

 

But honestly, the real reason they're sending her to Australia is that PACIFIC SKY needs a replacement down there, and Princess wanted to get rid of REGAL and needed to send her somewhere. Easy solution - make REGAL the replacement of PACIFIC SKY.

 

Honestly, the Australian market is very lucky that Princess just happened to need somewhere to get rid of REGAL to, as it's very unlikely they'd have gotten a ship of such quality otherwise.

 

The truth is that Australia has always been the "dumping ground" for ships that P&O/Princess/Carnival haven't known what to do with. REGAL may seem a higher quality ship than what has gone before, but things are moving so quickly now that even relatively new ships like her have become the cast-offs.

 

Of course, five years ago PACIFIC SKY was also a leap into a new era for the Australian market; she was at least as different from her predecessor FAIR PRINCESS as REGAL is from SKY. SKY was even exactly the same age in 2000 as REGAL will be in 2007!

 

Now, the planned DAWN PRINCESS positioning in Australia would not really have been a "cast-off" operation but remember that would have been under the Princess name, not P&O (which is positioned as a "party" brand, like Carnival, in Australia, but whose UK product is positioned as "premium", more like HAL - they share a name but not a product or brand image). Same goes for PACIFIC PRINCESS' Australian seasons. Princess name, Princess ship, Princess product (except for Australian entertainment and AUD as onboard currency). But the P&O Australia product is really the last stop for the ships that are considered to be "on their way out".

 

Mind you I think the Regal will be a cut above the ones we have been given of late.

I'd certainly consider her a cut above JUBILEE/PACIFIC SUN and COSTA TROPICALE/PACIFIC STAR. I don't know if I'd call her a cut above SKY PRINCESS/PACIFIC SKY; what that ship was five years ago and what REGAL is now are about the same IMHO.

 

we may even sail again on her when she is cruising from our waters.

Just keep in mind that she will have the P&O "funship" product, not the Princess product.

 

I agree, for once we are getting a good ship.

Now then, SKY was/is a good ship too ;) ! Admittedly REGAL is "better" (bigger cabins, more balconies, etc.) but personally I'd take SKY over a GRAND-class box any day...

 

What about the Crown Princess, the Pacific Princess, the Royal Princess and now the Regal Princess? That's not a trend?

And ISLAND PRINCESS (I), SKY PRINCESS, STAR PRINCESS (I)...

 

Since 2000 Princess have (including REGAL) gotten rid of six ships REGAL's size or smaller. They've gotten two new ones (which were actually "lightly used"). Yes, I think I see a trend ;) ...

 

I would venture to guess that Swartz is including the Sun Class as part of the “small” ship category, but you’re right - they aren’t small either.

Frankly, I think the last genuinely small ship they've operated was ITALIA which they got rid of in, let's see, 1972 I think :) ...

 

In this day and age, ships the size of ISLAND/PACIFIC (old) might be considered borderline "small". The R ships are decidedly not small, ROYAL definitely not, REGAL not even remotely close. As for the SUN-class... Ten years ago, SUN PRINCESS was the largest purpose-built cruise ship ever built and the largest active passenger ship in the world; to call her small is utterly laughable no matter what the PR people might say.

the cruise line will have to decide whether the small-ship devotees are important enough to their bottom line to keep some small ships around and available.

Small ships are simply not on the agenda for Princess any longer. I suspect that the two R ships may well be the last additions to the Princess fleet ever that are under 100,000 GT.

 

Keep in mind that the days when Princess had to be all things to all people are over. Now they are just a cog (albiet a huge cog) in the Carnival machine, and people who like truly small ships can easily take Seabourn or Windstar. And for "mid-sized" ships, there is HAL. The Carnival people do not care if you take Seabourn or Windstar or HAL or Princess or Carnival or whatever... The idea is to have a brand for everyone's tastes. Clearly, Princess is now being positioned as a brand for people whose tastes include very large ships.

 

On the other hand, you've got to wonder how Oceania (the new cruise line that's using the R ships) seems to be thriving - according to the "small ship isn't profitable" business model they should have been bankrupt by now. Hmmm :confused:

Well, first, Oceania's product - correctly or not - is perceived as being a notch higher than Princess, and people are willing to pay more for it.

 

Also, I don't think anyone would claim that small ships aren't profitable - they're just not nearly as profitable as big ones. After all, if every ship that's more than 10 years old is "small" by today's standards then clearly the cruise industry should not have existed ten years ago as nobody would have been able to make a profit ;) !

 

Big companies like Carnival can afford to build huge ships, which make more money than smaller ones. They want to make as much profit as they can, so they build these huge ships that will make them more profit. Smaller companies like Oceania don't have huge cash reserves to build huge ships, so they have no choice but to build/buy smaller vessels. Plus, the smaller size of their ships is a selling point. While the lower end of the market may think "bigger is better", generally speaking, as one gets into the upper strata of the market for cruises, a point is reached where smallness is considered desirable (at least to a point). At the very, very high end of the industry we have ultra-high-end ships like HEBRIDEAN PRINCESS (recently chartered by the Queen for use as a de facto Royal Yacht) which are inevitably very small. The people who take ships like this do not want to sail in even remotely large ships, and they can afford not to. Of course Hebridean Cruises is not as profitable as Carnival, but then they do not have billions of dollars to build whole fleets of giant mega-ships so that's rather irrelevant. Companies operating smaller ships, be they relatively large ones like Oceania or real "boutique" companies like Hebridean, have their own market niches and they do make money with small ships. Small ships may not make enough money to attract the likes of Carnival, but they're still profitable enough for the smaller firms in the industry.

[CruisinChris]

I agree, unhappily, with Doug on this. I listened to the Carnival quarterly update with Wall Street (available at Carnivalcorp.com) and all they talked about was increased profitability associated with larger ships. As much as we would love another "small" ship, I think the Coral and Island are the smallest newbuilds we'll see for Princess. Maybe we can all jump over to HAL and interject some much needed life...

[bdjam]

I agree, unhappily, with Doug on this. I listened to the Carnival quarterly update with Wall Street (available at Carnivalcorp.com) and all they talked about was increased profitability associated with larger ships. As much as we would love another "small" ship, I think the Coral and Island are the smallest newbuilds we'll see for Princess. Maybe we can all jump over to HAL and interject some much needed life...

Didn’t the announcement for the new order at Fincantieri include larger ships for HAL? If Carnival Corporation is following this model that bigger is better because it’s more profitable, HAL won’t have smaller ships much longer either. What Carnival Corporation doesn’t address is that bigger does not guarantee the same level of quality. I don’t just want to get on a boat and go somewhere. I want a quality cruise vacation at a reasonable price. I can get that by buying a booking on a, what is now, mid-sized Princess ship.

Otherwise, I can pay a reasonable price for a cabin on a large ship and get less quality, or I can pay more money for a smaller ship to get the quality I desire. Either way, it makes it more difficult for me to cruise and I doubt that I’m the only potential passenger who feels that way.

We can pat Carnival on the back all we want for their profitability model, but I still think stockholder dividends aren't everything. Sooner or later a crap product will affect the bottom line.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Maybe we can all jump over to HAL and interject some much needed life...

Hey! I come over here from the HAL board and you insult "my" line ;) ?

 

Seriously' date=' this is exactly Carnival's idea... The people who would have cruised Princess 10 years ago, if their tastes have not changed, are supposed to cruise HAL now. Or maybe Cunard, if they don't mind big ships.

 

And what can I say - I haven't been on Princess in five years; my past two cruises have both been on HAL and my next one is on Cunard. I guess it's working!

 

Didn’t the announcement for the new order at Fincantieri include larger ships for HAL?

Ever so slightly bigger than the current Vista-class ships, yes, but much smaller than the behemoths Princess have been getting lately.

 

Having been on the Vista-class ZUIDERDAM and the GRAND PRINCESS, there is a world of difference. The Vistas are about the same size as a CORAL-class ship, but carry fewer passengers than a SUN-class ship - only 250 more than REGAL, in fact. To me that's a big ship, but with 1,850 passengers (Vista-class) as opposed to 2,600 (GRAND-class), it's still a much more "personal" experience.

 

The new HAL ship just ordered is a few thousand tons bigger than a Vista and will carry a few hundred passengers more, but will still be roughly the size of a CORAL-class ship but with less capacity.

 

And there are still 'nine HAL ships that are smaller than REGAL... And these are pretty new and will be around for a long time.

 

I can't guarantee that all Princess passengers disenchanted with the bigger ships will like HAL, but that's where Carnival would like you to go. Personally, I think they compare quite favorably - HAL quality is roughly the same as what I remember from Princess five to ten years ago (no idea if they've gotten better or worse since), and the ships are about the size Princess ships were then, too.

 

And no, HAL passengers aren't all old fogies... Honest. The passenger profile on my ROTTERDAM Baltic cruise this past August was almost identical to that on GRAND PRINCESS in the Med in 2000 (my last Princess cruise). The biggest difference... There were less passengers on ROTTERDAM, of course!

[Coral]

Doug,

 

HAL has intrigued me and will probably be the next line I try, maybe not the next cruise but the next line.....

 

Theresa

[OzCruise]

Ah, Druke I, my too subtle attempt at humour...:D

 

I too have sailed on the Pacific Sky - the crew were fantastic, but alas, the ship has seen better days.

 

I wonder if it'll make Spain?:rolleyes:

[dougnewmanatsea]

Ah, Druke I, my too subtle attempt at humour...

I got it, so it wasn't too subtle for all of us ;) ...

 

the crew were fantastic, but alas, the ship has seen better days.

As one who knew and loved her in those better days, it's sad to hear that.

 

She's still one of my very favorite ships and actually I look forward to trying her in the Med.

 

I expect Pullmantur will be putting quite a bit of money into her and by the time they're done with her she'll probably look better than she has in years.

[Aussie Gal]

Oz Cruise,

 

I realized it was our Aussie way of "tongue in cheek" humour.

 

Coral,

 

We also have sailed mostly with HAL and do enjoy the experience. I am looking forward to trying Princess again in a couple of weeks time. We loved our cruise on the Tahitian Princess though that is a smaller ship which we prefer.

 

Jennie

 

I am looking forward

[JLC@SD]

Cruise News Daily (www.cruisenewsdaily.com) just confirmed in an article that Regal Princess will be transferred to P&O, but in the fall of 2007. The article also quotes Jan Swartz as saying that Princess is totally committed to continuing to operate the smaller ships. She also says the rumors about sale of Tahitian and Pacific are unfounded.

 

I’m not quite sure how she can continue to tout that Princess will offer a wide range of ship sizes when they continue to order 3100 passenger ships and continue to rid the fleet of the smaller vessels. Tahitian and Pacific on exotic itineraries hardly count as a fleet with a “wide range of ship sizes.” Sun, Dawn and Sea will now be the “small” ships of the Princess fleet. The only true small ships will be unreachable to most of us. Who is Swartz trying to fool?

 

What is small to one person may not be small to another. My guess is Swartz considers 2600 small compared to the 3000 plus ships.

 

It is apparent that in order to cruise small is going to mean cruise expensive, ie Crystal, Oceania, Seabourn, Windstar, Raddison etc.

 

In order for Princess to offer cruises in the price range they compete in, more Grand Class ships will be ordered.........and as Walter Cronkite said.................and that's the way it is.................:)

[TorontoTL]

Hey! I come over here from the HAL board and you insult "my" line ;) ?

 

Seriously, this is exactly Carnival's idea... The people who would have cruised Princess 10 years ago, if their tastes have not changed, are supposed to cruise HAL now. Or maybe Cunard, if they don't mind big ships.

 

And what can I say - I haven't been on Princess in five years; my past two cruises have both been on HAL and my next one is on Cunard. I guess it's working!

 

 

Ever so slightly bigger than the current Vista-class ships, yes, but much smaller than the behemoths Princess have been getting lately.

 

Having been on the Vista-class ZUIDERDAM and the GRAND PRINCESS, there is a world of difference. The Vistas are about the same size as a CORAL-class ship, but carry fewer passengers than a SUN-class ship - only 250 more than REGAL, in fact. To me that's a big ship, but with 1,850 passengers (Vista-class) as opposed to 2,600 (GRAND-class), it's still a much more "personal" experience.

 

The new HAL ship just ordered is a few thousand tons bigger than a Vista and will carry a few hundred passengers more, but will still be roughly the size of a CORAL-class ship but with less capacity.

 

And there are still 'nine HAL ships that are smaller than REGAL... And these are pretty new and will be around for a long time.

 

I can't guarantee that all Princess passengers disenchanted with the bigger ships will like HAL, but that's where Carnival would like you to go. Personally, I think they compare quite favorably - HAL quality is roughly the same as what I remember from Princess five to ten years ago (no idea if they've gotten better or worse since), and the ships are about the size Princess ships were then, too.

 

And no, HAL passengers aren't all old fogies... Honest. The passenger profile on my ROTTERDAM Baltic cruise this past August was almost identical to that on GRAND PRINCESS in the Med in 2000 (my last Princess cruise). The biggest difference... There were less passengers on ROTTERDAM, of course!

 

My concern even for HAL is that Carnival is putting more pax on only slightly larger ships and thus making the space ratios worse. The Coral is 92,000 GRT, the new Vista class ship is still smaller at only about 88,000. The Coral carries 1970 pax at two per cabin while the news I read about the new Vista class ship is that it will carry over 2000 pax. Carnival is putting more people on the HAL ship that is on the Coral and yet the new ship is also smaller. I have had the same concern about the Princess newbuilds since the Caribbean Princess. The newbuilds are marginally larger but with many more pax. If they were to maintain the space ratios and the crew:passenger ratios at good levels they could maintain the quality of the experience. Cunard is able to do that because they have high space and crew:pax ratios. Come on Princess don't start packing us into more crowded ships with insufficient numbers of crew to provide quality service.

[Coral]

Coral,

 

We also have sailed mostly with HAL and do enjoy the experience. I am looking forward to trying Princess again in a couple of weeks time. We loved our cruise on the Tahitian Princess though that is a smaller ship which we prefer.

 

 

Hi Jennie - I had a HAL booked a few years ago. It was on the Zuiderdam and in an aft "S" suite. There was a lot of negative things about the Zuiderdam on the HAL boards - I couldn't tell if it was the HAL group upset with the new direction of HAL (Vista class ships) or if the ship had real problems. People were complaining of bad smells aft, not enough restrooms and the color scheme. Then I found out right after our Nov sailing, the ship was going to dry dock and was going to address some of the issues, we decided to bail.

 

We ultimately switched to a minisuite on Golden (a step down) but were thankfully upgraded to a full suite so it all worked out well. Looking back - I do wish I would have tried HAL. I think I would like the color schemes of the Oosterdam or the older HAL ships.

 

HAL is still on my list to sail and I see myself very attracted to their ships in the future because they are smaller (I am not a fan of the Grand class ships)....I can easily see myself shifting in the future. With all factors considered (price, size of ship, itineraries) - HAL seems to be the most logical choice for me. Switching to Celebrity just doesn't interest me (sailed once, didn't like).

 

I do want to try the Tahitian but the price is just not in the cards at the moment. I hope the ship sticks around for awhile

 

Thanks for your comments :)

 

Theresa

[Druke I]

OzCruise

 

Oh yes, I did see your attempt at subtle humor. Eye of the beholder.

 

Doug

 

The problem with Pacific Sky is mechanical reliability, not cosmetic. As of 9-00, she was still a smartly appointed ship, just with a worn-out reduction gear system supporting an out-moded steam turbine propulsion system.

[spongerob]

I have had the same concern about the Princess newbuilds since the Caribbean Princess. The newbuilds are marginally larger but with many more pax. If they were to maintain the space ratios and the crew/passenger ratios at good levels they could maintain the quality of the experience.

 

Space ratios are pretty misleading, and in the example you mentioned, don't tell the whole story. CB lost a lot of "space" because the covered pool area was replaced with the open MUTS area. The space is still there, it's just not enclosed, so doesn't get included in the tonnage totals.

 

You are spot on about the staffing levels. That is where the big savings come in. Every corporate entity has learned that they can dowsnize (rightsize, happysize, whatever) and still get the same things done and improve profits. Sadly, the mass-market that Princess and other cruise lines are chasing with these big ships are more concerned about price than quality because it's a commodity market.

 

Look at all the complaints on this board in the last few weeks...people complain, but they still cruise. I have to admit, low prices got me on the Grand next month, too. In fact, it's the lowest price I've ever paid for a 7-day cruise. I guess I'm part of the problem, but maybe not for much longer. HAL, X, or someone else that can offer what I'm looking for, might be where I belong.

[TorontoTL]

I do realize that the space ratios can be misleading, another example is that with the multilevel atriums and malls on ships like the Voyager class, the vertical space or air volume is used to calculate the space and increases the space ratio. Yet this vertical space cannot be used by people and doesn't do anything to help with crowding. But in the case of the HAL ships, the new Vista class ship, I don't think any of those factors are likely to affect it's GRT, and I do think it will be a bit more crowded than the current VISTA class ships.

[CruisinChris]

Doug - like Coral I had booked Zuiderdam for Xmas. For a variety of reasons I cancelled when final payment was due. I'm actually reasonably certain that we would like HAL. Been sailing Princess since 96. Fell in love with the line on our second cruise, on the Regal. I'm not opposed to the bigger ships, but I prefer something smaller, with fewer passengers. Partly because it's more intimate, partly because it's less crowded, partly because the service is noticeably better. Who knows? We may fit HAL in yet.

[Druke I]

Well, talking about HAL:

 

Our 1st trip with them was on Noordam (the old, not the new). Nice little ship, but with the poorest designed main show lounge I have yet seen, one with horrible sight-lines no matter where you sat.

 

Our 2nd trip was on Maasdam, a nicely appointed ship, but not a good rider in heavy seas. The ship is sorely lacking a mid-ships stairwell and elevator bank, a shortcoming corrected on the later R class. Its showroom also had many poor sightlines, but was an improvement over the Noordam.

 

3rd trip was on Westerdam (now a Costa ship). She was lovely, and we would have liked to go on her again, but she was spun off to Costa.

 

HAL's food, in our opinion, is a cut above Princess, and the service seemed a bit more polished, more akin to that we used to see on Sitmar or the Princess of old.

 

The main reason Princess continues to get our business is Exotic Itineraries.

Princess has, in our opinion, some of the best itineraries available, many of which are not well-suited to mega-ships of the Grand class. (Any ship that cannot transit the Panama Canal is too damned big). Should HAL expand their itineraries, we might well try them again.

 

We recently did the Baltic on Oceania's Regatta, a nice small ship, and sister to Pacific Princess (new) and Tahitian Princess. We have booked another cruise with Oceania, 11-06 on Nautica (yet another sister to TP & PP), from Istanbul to Singapore via the Suez.

 

Isn't it wonderful we have so many choices?

[Aussie Gal]

Michael,

 

We have done two "exotic" cruises with HAL. The first one was last year on the Prinsendam when we went from Athens to Bulgaria then to the Ukraine (both in the Black Sea) then on to Istanbul, Kusadasi, Santorini, Dubrovnik, Split and finishing in Vencie. Very few cruise lines do this particular itinerary.

 

The second "exotic" cruise with HAL was this year in July when we went on the Maasdam departing from Boston to Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland, Shetland Islands, down the coast of Norway to Rotterdam in Holland. Another great cruise.

 

In 2006 we are doing our third "exotic" cruise with HAL. This time we will be on the Veendam and are cruising from Vancouver down the west coast of U.S. and Mexico, through the Panama Canal and up the Amazon and back finally finishing in Tampa.

 

The interesting cruises are there, you just need to look for them.

 

Happy cruising.

 

Jennie