Antigua

[sfaaa]

There are beautiful beaches all over Caribbean. What makes this Antigua PM think he and his island are so special?

[chamima]

On 3/17/2019 at 3:18 PM, Hlitner said:

Difficult to analyze what is happening since differing parties tend to "spin" things.  Crime on Antigua is really not any more of a problem then on many other islands (St Thomas has a big crime problem but nobody talks about it).  While Carnival says that Antigua does not want cruise ship passengers, the reality is that they are currently building a new cruise ship pier and will be able to handle MORE ships.   And also consider that the cruise industry continues to expand with more new players in the business.  MSC is adding 2 new ships (mostly huge) a year and continues to expand its presence in the Caribbean.  Virgin is soon entering the market and we are seeing more and more European cruise lines with ships in the waters.  With so many lines cruising in the Caribbean with very large ships, docking facilities are often full.  

 

IMHO it comes down to money although we are not sure why this is an issue with Antigua.  But its always about money.  RCI pulled out of the winter West Coast market (Mexican Riviera) because they could make more money operating those same ships in the Caribbean.  Carnival likes to visit ports where CCL actually builds and owns part of the facility (i.e. Turks and Caicos, Colon 2000, Panama, etc).   Also consider that CCL ships often stop at Ocho Rios, Jamaica which is among the worst port facilities in the region...not to mention an island with a big crime/drug problem where cruisers are routinely harassed by islanders.

 

Just a word about Antigua.  DW and I have been traveling in the Caribbean for decades and are generally in Antigua at least once or twice a year.  IMHO the island is no better or worse then most Caribbean islands when it comes to crime, beaches, etc.  We always "do our own thing" on the islands including the use of public transportation, visiting restaurants, browsing the towns, etc.  In Antigua we have always felt welcomed and have found most of the islanders we have met to be very friendly.  We routinely would use the local buses (like large vans) to move around the island and would often be the only tourists on these van buses.  We have been treated with nothing but respect and locals have often given us tips about the best beaches, the characters that operate the beach bars, etc.  We most recently visited Antigua in both November and December and everything was fine.  Would we miss Antigua if we never returned?  No more or less then any other Caribbean island (we often do not bother getting off the ship on some islands).  

 

Hank

 

On 3/29/2019 at 11:22 AM, Tak8 said:

Count me in on really liking this island.  Antigua has some great beaches and I never felt uneasy in the beach areas.   In the Carnival announcement, I remember reading that Tortola was one of the replacement islands for Carnival ships.  Don't know what Princess will do.  

 

 

We also really like Antigua.

We usually walk to the bus station and take the public bus to a beach.

We've met some really nice and very interesting people that way.

After our day at the beach we take the bus back downtown and often go to a local restaurant (Roti King).

I'm a big chicken but have never felt unsafe!

 

 

On 3/29/2019 at 11:29 AM, Hlitner said:

US Corporations often have to tread a very fine line when dealing with foreign governments and their officials.  In some parts of the world, payoffs (bribes) are just a normal part of doing business.   Back in 1977 the US Government enacted the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) which does impact both RCI and CCL.  Put simply it means that the cruise lines cannot legally payoff (in anyway) a government or their officials to obtain anything in return.  Is this the problem in Antigua?   

 

We actually were on a ship that got caught up in this FCPA issue.  A few years ago we were on a long Prinsendam cruise that called at two ports in Tunesia (Gabes and Sous).  As I recall our ship docked in Sous for a normal port day.  When it came time to disembark the local authorities refused to clear our ship without first receiving some "consideration" which would have been in the form of money.  We sat at the pier for nearly 2 hours (past our normal departure time) while our Captain waited for instructions from HAL who apparently had contacted the State Department.  As the Captain  (Halle Gundersen) later told the tale, he finally explained to the local officials that if they did not permit us to depart we would miss our next port....which happened to be Gabes.  He further pointed out that if we missed Gabes this would cost Tunesia a lot of money in missed port fees and tourist revenue.  The local officials finally relented and released our ship (and we did proceed to Gabes with no further issues).  Although it would have been easier for HAL to simply have paid the small requested bribe, it would have been a serious violation of the FCPA.

 

There have been rumors flying around the Caribbean about the Prime Minister of Antigua (Gaston Browne) and his thoughts about how to "partner" with some tourist related ventures.  There is a very fine line between "partnering" and violating the FCPA and we wonder if this is part of the problem.   What is interesting is that some cruise lines (such as MSC) likely do not have to comply with the provisions of FCPO...which only applies to US Corporations.

 

Hank

 

We had a similar experience in Bali on a Celebrity ship.

We waited for about 3 hours while the ship (and Celebrity Corporate) negotiated back and forth with the local government about our port fees.

I think that was the last year Celebrity sailed to Bali.

[RDC1]

On 3/29/2019 at 8:29 AM, Hlitner said:

US Corporations often have to tread a very fine line when dealing with foreign governments and their officials.  In some parts of the world, payoffs (bribes) are just a normal part of doing business.   Back in 1977 the US Government enacted the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) which does impact both RCI and CCL.  Put simply it means that the cruise lines cannot legally payoff (in anyway) a government or their officials to obtain anything in return.  Is this the problem in Antigua?   

 

We actually were on a ship that got caught up in this FCPA issue.  A few years ago we were on a long Prinsendam cruise that called at two ports in Tunesia (Gabes and Sous).  As I recall our ship docked in Sous for a normal port day.  When it came time to disembark the local authorities refused to clear our ship without first receiving some "consideration" which would have been in the form of money.  We sat at the pier for nearly 2 hours (past our normal departure time) while our Captain waited for instructions from HAL who apparently had contacted the State Department.  As the Captain  (Halle Gundersen) later told the tale, he finally explained to the local officials that if they did not permit us to depart we would miss our next port....which happened to be Gabes.  He further pointed out that if we missed Gabes this would cost Tunesia a lot of money in missed port fees and tourist revenue.  The local officials finally relented and released our ship (and we did proceed to Gabes with no further issues).  Although it would have been easier for HAL to simply have paid the small requested bribe, it would have been a serious violation of the FCPA.

 

There have been rumors flying around the Caribbean about the Prime Minister of Antigua (Gaston Browne) and his thoughts about how to "partner" with some tourist related ventures.  There is a very fine line between "partnering" and violating the FCPA and we wonder if this is part of the problem.   What is interesting is that some cruise lines (such as MSC) likely do not have to comply with the provisions of FCPO...which only applies to US Corporations.

 

Hank

Last time I looked NCL and RCL owned companies, which are also US listed and with US corporate HQ's, just as bound by US laws have not pulled out.  So I doubt that CCL is pulling out because they were being forced to pay bribes, when their partners in the port bid have stayed put.

 

My read of the issues related to the port are:

 

1. The consortium that included NCL, RCL and CCL lost

2. The winning bid is improving the port for very large ships (advantage to RCL, MSC, and potentially NCL) 

3. The bid is making the port more open with more local businesses and more local tour options, reducing cruise line control, vendor kickbacks, and increasing competition to cruise line excursions.

 

CCL's own press release after the port loss just stated that the island was not being friendly to cruise ships, made absolutely no claims about pressure to violate US law.  So where have you seen any info concerning violations of the FCPA?

[RDC1]

A few years ago Princess had a problem with an Indonesian port.  They were not allowed to dock, if they did not pay an increased port fee.  The immediate reaction was to cancel the port for that trip and canceled future calls at the port AND there was a press release stating why port calls were canceled there.  Port calls were reinstated after negotiations with the government and assurances that such issues would not arise in the future.  There was another press release made when port calls were reinstated.

 

Now why would a CCL owned line make the reason public, and not due it now if there was illegal activity being requested in Antigue?

 

Instead the timing is rather interesting that the decision came about after the bid went to the competing bid (a company which has recently won some other port bids as well) an the prime minister made comments about the FCCA (who formed the consortium for the  bid that lost) exploiting the caribbean and that the islands needed to form a regional port authority to mandate that the cruise lines pay more and to stop the islands having to subsidize the cruise industry.  As well as statements that the current cruise lines payments do not even keep up with what the islands have to pay for infrastructure to support the cruise industry.

[RDC1]

1 hour ago, sfaaa said:

There are beautiful beaches all over Caribbean. What makes this Antigua PM think he and his island are so special?

There are an increasing number of cruise ships in the Caribbean, and a limited number of ports to call at.  Seems like as good a time as any to try and get reasonable port fees.