Seabourn and the current issues surrounding the Corona Virus

[jozi]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

You can interpret the advisory to only apply to the elderly if you want, but the part you quote is clearly supporting information in my interpretation.  I prefer to look first at the overall statement. 

I didn’t read it as ONLY, was just clarifying that elderly (well, “older adults” which to me is a broader term than elderly but agree with you that both are fuzzy) were specifically mentioned. Upthread you had observed that

“elderly are not mentioned here” and while they were not in that first paragraph, they were, later on that State department page, and directly related to cruising.
 

SLSD in any event I think we both agree we want people to be safe and healthy. 

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, jozi said:

I didn’t read it as ONLY, was just clarifying that elderly (well, “older adults” which to me is a broader term than elderly but agree with you that both are fuzzy) were specifically mentioned. Upthread you had observed that

“elderly are not mentioned here” and while they were not in that first paragraph, they were, later on that State department page, and directly related to cruising.
 

SLSD in any event I think we both agree we want people to be safe and healthy. 

Yes, we both agree.  I just see the first statement as the main one--and the other statements mentioning older people as supportive.  It's probably my school teacher past.

 

I think most of us agree on most everything in this health crisis--and just have different ways of expressing it and see different perspectives.   

Edited March 9, 2020 by SLSD

[Mark56]

 

US State Dept Tells Americans to Avoid Cruise Travel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/08/us/politics/cruise-ship-warning.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytpolitics

[DWF]

10 hours ago, florisdekort said:

I wish people would leave US domestic politics out of this debate. 

They can't.  They're infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, DWF said:

They can't.  They're infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Sadly, it is what it is in the United States right now.  We are not prepared and we are getting conflicting information.  That's why I listen to Dr. Fauci.  He is a known expert and we know he has the best interests of the American citizens as his foremost priority.  

[cuddles115]

For a guy born in Brooklyn, Tony Fauci has always been calm, cool and  collected.  Jenni Dallas on "So who has decided to cancel? " on this website makes a very good point in her last paragraph. Those "in the know" aren't panicking and either is Fauci.  Many want to  believe  the sky is falling or TDS.  IMHO alarmists for the sake of alarming or, perhaps, blogging for the sake of blogging..  Once on board, the SB cruise is and remains superb.

[longton]

It doesn't remain superb onboard if a passenger or crew member contracts Coronavirus.

[SLSD]

7 minutes ago, longton said:

It doesn't remain superb onboard if a passenger or crew member contracts Coronavirus.

You are right Langton.  The crew would be expected to take care of passengers quarantined to their suites.  The food quality would lessen, the supplies would dwindle and the crew would be more at risk than anyone.  It would not be anyone's idea of a Seabourn holiday.  In other words, it would be far from superb.  

 

[legal holiday]

Here are some issues with the future cruise credit being offered by Seabourn and why it could eventually cost you a lot of money if you end up cancelling as your cruise date became closer.

 

1.  In order to use the future cruise credit, you have to re-book within 90 days of cancellation even though the future cruise may be up to a year and a half away.  You can't use the FCC for your deposit, so you will have the deposit as well as full amount of FCC, perhaps 100% of the total cost, tied up for such period.  Given tight 90 -day window for re-booking, you won't be able to wait for one of Seabourn's periodic super-sales before booking.  This feature alone could cost thousands.

 

2.  Presumably, once you book, you will have no right to cancel or to re-price your cruise based on future Seabourn discounts which are typically offered from time to time during the period before 120 days prior to the cruise.  Again, a significant cost negative.

 

3.  Normal travel insurance at standard prices is unlikely to be available for something you can't cancel at any time for a period of up to a year and a half without the complete loss of the deposit and the FCC, which could be 100% of the cruise cost.  Also, would insurance even cover the loss of the FCC if you had to cancel because of sickness, death, etc.

 

4.  In the terms and conditions for the FCC stated by Seabourn, you can't combine the FCC "with any other  offers".  This could mean you might not be able to book at a sales price even if there was a Seabourn sale and other benefits being offered at the time you booked within 90 days of the cancellation.  No suite upgrade, no on-board credit, no additional 5% discount for Seabourn club membership, no free internet minutes, no air credit, and maybe no discounted price then being offered if there is an expiration date for such price in the sale.  This is a real potential cost negative.

 

5.  In the terms and conditions, Seabourn reserves the right to modify or withdraw the policy at any time without notice for any reason.  Significant risk that for financial reasons, Seabourn could cancel the policy, say in April, stating that the virus was not so bad, which means you could have a 75% cash penalty (with no right to an FCC for such amount) if you cancelled thereafter because you felt differently than Seabourn about the virus risk.

 

6.  Finally, in the terms and conditions, Seabourn states that the FCC may be subject to "additional terms and conditions as provided by Seabourn" without any clarification of what they could be. 

 

If Seabourn wants customers to stick with it during this uncertain period, the policy needs to be more customer friendly.

[RustyRollock]

Of the 21 confirmed cases on the Grand Princess, 19 are crew members. Something to think about. I assume these individuals are being quarantined on board but it must surely affect the day to day operation of the ship so I doubt it will be “business as usual” in some respects. And if more and more countries are not allowing cruise ships to even dock then the problem of reprovisioning food, water and fuel arises.

 

Until the media-led hysteria, fear and panic subside and we are able to make informed decisions about our future travel plans our own plan is to stay put on home soil, keep calm and carry on. And wash our hands!

[Astride]

28 minutes ago, SLSD said:

You are right Langton.  The crew would be expected to take care of passengers quarantined to their suites.  The food quality would lessen, the supplies would dwindle and the crew would be more at risk than anyone.  It would not be anyone's idea of a Seabourn holiday.  In other words, it would be far from superb.  

 

Some people see life through rose-coloured glasses & call it positive thinking. It's positive allright but is it wise?

[cuddles115]

35 minutes ago, longton said:

It doesn't remain superb onboard if a passenger or crew member contracts Coronavirus.

You're absolutely right.  It's not superb when you get struck by a car crossing the street. It's not superb when you're on a mainstream line( ie.  Princess) and get quarantined.  The chances of this happening on a Seabourn ship are lessened

 to a large extent. The why's and wherefores are too numerous to mention. If you ever went to Vegas or another gambling venue, you check the odds before putting your money down.  Similarly, your odds are greater if you are in contact with a "carrier" or are not precautionary and would be lessened on a SB ship.

[DWF]

10 minutes ago, legal holiday said:

Here are some issues with the future cruise credit being offered by Seabourn and why it could eventually cost you a lot of money if you end up cancelling as your cruise date became closer.

 

1.  In order to use the future cruise credit, you have to re-book within 90 days of cancellation even though the future cruise may be up to a year and a half away.  You can't use the FCC for your deposit, so you will have the deposit as well as full amount of FCC, perhaps 100% of the total cost, tied up for such period.  Given tight 90 -day window for re-booking, you won't be able to wait for one of Seabourn's periodic super-sales before booking.  This feature alone could cost thousands.

 

2.  Presumably, once you book, you will have no right to cancel or to re-price your cruise based on future Seabourn discounts which are typically offered from time to time during the period before 120 days prior to the cruise.  Again, a significant cost negative.

 

3.  Normal travel insurance at standard prices is unlikely to be available for something you can't cancel at any time for a period of up to a year and a half without the complete loss of the deposit and the FCC, which could be 100% of the cruise cost.  Also, would insurance even cover the loss of the FCC if you had to cancel because of sickness, death, etc.

 

4.  In the terms and conditions for the FCC stated by Seabourn, you can't combine the FCC "with any other  offers".  This could mean you might not be able to book at a sales price even if there was a Seabourn sale and other benefits being offered at the time you booked within 90 days of the cancellation.  No suite upgrade, no on-board credit, no additional 5% discount for Seabourn club membership, no free internet minutes, no air credit, and maybe no discounted price then being offered if there is an expiration date for such price in the sale.  This is a real potential cost negative.

 

5.  In the terms and conditions, Seabourn reserves the right to modify or withdraw the policy at any time without notice for any reason.  Significant risk that for financial reasons, Seabourn could cancel the policy, say in April, stating that the virus was not so bad, which means you could have a 75% cash penalty (with no right to an FCC for such amount) if you cancelled thereafter because you felt differently than Seabourn about the virus risk.

 

6.  Finally, in the terms and conditions, Seabourn states that the FCC may be subject to "additional terms and conditions as provided by Seabourn" without any clarification of what they could be. 

 

If Seabourn wants customers to stick with it during this uncertain period, the policy needs to be more customer friendly.

This is my first Seabourn trip coming up in May and it is not shaping up to be a positive experience.  While at first I was relieved when they changed the cancellation policy so I at least had an option to cancel though I had not considered the ramifications you mention.  Seabourn should, as you say, make this policy more friendly for their customers.  Or given that the U.S. State Department is urging people to not get on cruise ships, provide a refund.

[teamflames]

3 hours ago, cuddles115 said:

For a guy born in Brooklyn, Tony Fauci has always been calm, cool and  collected.  Jenni Dallas on "So who has decided to cancel? " on this website makes a very good point in her last paragraph. Those "in the know" aren't panicking and either is Fauci.  Many want to  believe  the sky is falling or TDS.  IMHO alarmists for the sake of alarming or, perhaps, blogging for the sake of blogging..  Once on board, the SB cruise is and remains superb.

I find just as much misinformation being spread by the “it’s just another flu” crowd.

There are several TAs who have consistently posted inaccurate facts about the virus on the SB sailors FB page clearly with an agenda.

The amount of people who have cited the State Dept announcement as only applying to the elderly is an indictment on the populations ability to comprehend simple English or a blatant attempt to misinform those who haven’t read it.

Then are those who like to make simple or sweeping claims about the virus being a flu etc. Clearly have not read any of the WHO reports which clearly state it is not a flu and bar a couple of symptom similarities has nothing to do with influenza. They repeatedly stress how little the know about it.
I get it people want to go on their vacations, so go right ahead but don’t pass on false information trying to get the rest of us to join you.

Again Seabourn, who about some updates, a lot has happened since Feb 27. Government warnings, loads of closed ports, Italy is closed as an entire country.

Those on the Ovation still don’t know what is happening despite Celebrity and Silverseas cancelling similar itineraries. What is this head in the sand mentality?

[SLSD]

34 minutes ago, teamflames said:

 

The amount of people who have cited the State Dept announcement as only applying to the elderly is an indictment on the populations ability to comprehend simple English or a blatant attempt to misinform those who haven’t read it.

 

34 minutes ago, teamflames said:

Then are those who like to make simple or sweeping claims about the virus being a flu etc. Clearly have not read any of the WHO reports which clearly state it is not a flu and bar a couple of symptom similarities has nothing to do with influenza. They repeatedly stress how little the know about it.
I get it people want to go on their vacations, so go right ahead but don’t pass on false information trying to get the rest of us to join you.

 

Thank you Teamflames. I was beginning to doubt my own reading comprehension abilities.   And I agree---this virus is not the flu.  I got real chills when I read HOW it affects the lungs.  I think some people are denial--either they really want to go on their cruise OR they are loathe to lose money.  I get that.  I do think taking the FCC that has been offered to many is the choice I would make--and then book a replacement cruise as far out as I could make it.  

[Lindadave]

Ports Currently Closed to Cruise Ships

Cook Islands The Cook Islands government has banned all cruise ship visits to the outer islands.

Doha: Qatar's capital, Doha, has closed its port to cruise ships until further notice.

Hong Kong: Kai Tak Cruise Terminal in Hong Kong has shut both its cruise terminals until further notice as cruise lines cancel sailings and adjust itineraries to avoid calls on several Asia ports due to the coronavirus outbreak.

India: The Government of India will no longer allow entry to cruise ships to its ports.

Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia: The Malyasian port of Kota Kinabalu has closed itself to all cruise ship traffic.

Malaysia: The country has closed its cruise ports to cruise ships following a decision taken by the Health Ministry and Transport Ministry.

Maldives: The Government of Maldives announced new precautionary measures on February 26 that include a temporary ban on all cruise ships from entering and docking in the Maldives.

New Caledonia: Three New Caledonian ports -- Lifou, Mare and Isle of Pines -- remain closed after tribal chiefs made an unprecedented decision to bar cruise traffic. Cruise lines are in communication with the local chiefs to attempt to find a solution to the disruptions.

Samoa: All cruise ships will not be granted entry into Samoa until further notice.

South Korea: South Korea has implemented a temporary ban on all cruise ships docking at its ports. For February, the only ship scheduled to call in was Holland America Line's Westerdam, which was barred from entering multiple ports.

Sri Lanka: Sri Lanka has closed to all cruise passengers with immediate effect, however it is allowing ships to dock to take on supplies and refuel. Seabourn released the following statement: "Seabourn Sojourn is scheduled to arrive in Colombo, Sri Lanka on Friday, March 6, for a two-day call to support loading of supplies, as well as other ship operations required to be completed before the ship arrives in New Zealand.

"Due to new restrictions put in place by the Sri Lanka Ministry of Health, Nutrition & Indigenous Medicine on March 2, guests and crew will not be able to disembark the ship while in port. Sojourn will no longer be calling in Hambantota on March 8."

Taiwan: Keelung and other cruise ports in Taiwan closed their doors to cruise traffic on February 6, (making one exception on February 7 for a ship called Super Star Aquarius, which had a large number of Taiwanese passengers onboard).

United Arab Emirates: It was confirmed on March 8 by Celebrity Cruises that the UAE, which includes the ports of Abu Dhabi and Dubai, has closed its ports to cruise ships.

[RustyRollock]

I wish the authorities would take such a firm proactive stance on airports where even basic screening and other precautions seem to be non existent in many cases.

[2SailingNomads]

Lots of speculation on this thread, from the post: "this virus is man made and weapons grade" (post 537) - I never saw anything to back that up - did anyone else?, to people sharing their personal health issues.  Everyone has to make their own choices - and I agree Seabourn's policy is very deficient especially when compared to other lines (see Regent for a good example of what a luxury line should be offering to booked guests).  In the US the CDC and State policies have been driven by political considerations rather than science, although they now seem to be able to divorce themselves from the re-election campaign.   Airline cancellation rules are all over the place.  United pretty liberal, Delta very restrictive.  

 

Someone I respect who runs a major research lab that is part of a much bigger US hospital, and gets daily updates from the various groups in her organization, told me that travel for healthy people should not be a concern, rather "it is immune compromised people who are most at risk."  That is not to say a healthy person can not contract Covid-19, rather that if they do the chance of recovery is very good.  

 

A different calculation that one needs to take into consideration is will the itinerary they booked be what the cruise actually does, and if not are they willing to take the cruise?  Again everyone has to take into consideration their own health conditions and how flexible they are willing to be and what if they have to be quarantined if anther person on their cruise exhibits symptoms or tests positive. YMMV.

[cuddles115]

Let's all take a deep breath and examine the facts as we know them.  After reading some of the blurbs, I feel that we are in DEFCON-5( for those unaware of DEFCON, this is a defense readiness condition with #1 being the mildest and #5 being the end of the world).

 

Dr. Lisa Memgakis of Johns Hopkins wrote a very precise comparison of the flu and COVID 19. Both cause fever, cough, body aches, fatigue, and sometimes vomiting and diarrhea.  COVID 19 and its relatives are caused by 1 virus.  Where as the flu is caused by several different strains and types.  Most of which are "stymied" by a flu shot. As of March 9th, there have been 113,579 case reported world wide of which 607 case were reported is the USA.  This was opposed to the flu which identified more than 1 billion world wide and 9.3 to 45 million in the USA. COVID 19 does not kill.  The resultant pneumonia ( lung affliction) does.

 

We have, in the past, been unprepared for the  Ebola Virus, SARS and MERS amongst others.  True, our hands are tied with the COVID 19 Virus.  We are unprepared for this world wide pandemic thanks to air travel, cruise ships, etc.  We are, in all spheres, neophytes in attacking and discussing this virus. In a way, we are all flying by the seat of our pants. But, to blow it out of proportion is insane.

 

Catlover54 speaks of poor service in the MDR on her Sydney to Sydney cruise. She also said that the food was subpar and reminded her of diner food. The pianist was a SB star and she complimented SB on their hiring her. But, she made absolutely no mention go decreased amenities or service because of COVID 19.I am one of the first to say that Seabourn since it came under the Carnival/ Holland America umbrella has deteriorated in everything including customer service.  How they handled the Covid 19 thing is a horror show and should be a primer in business school on what NOT to do in another event such as this. The customer should be, above all, happy and satisfied. In fact, I was so disappointed by my cruise in November that I'm, for the first time in a long time, leaving Seabourn and taking a cruise on the Regent Explorer on Wednesday. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."  Let's not blow any of this out of proportion.  

 

 

 

 

[AtTheJob]

Voyage cancelled on Ovation 3/14.

 

They just emailed the cancellation a few minutes ago... full refund + 25% FCC 

[Lindadave]

We are very sorry to inform you that your Seabourn Encore cruise departing April 17, 2020, has been cancelled.

 

Seabourn has been closely monitoring the evolving situation with respect to the new coronavirus (COVID-19) that originated in mainland China. Our medical experts are being briefed regularly and coordinating closely with international health authorities to ensure we protect the health and well-being of our guests and crew, which is always our top priority.

 

The difficult decision to cancel your voyage has been made based on the additional changes we have seen recently in travel restrictions and port operations in Asia. While we expect things will stabilize, we always strive to ensure we can provide our guests with an experience that will live up to their expectations, and, due to the volume of port closures in the region, we are not able to offer the balance of destinations and sea days originally planned.  

All guests will receive a full refund of their cruise fare, Seabourn Flight Ease air, Seabourn pre- or post-cruise hotel packages or transfers, prepaid shore excursions and amenities purchased through Seabourn, and taxes, fees, and port expenses back to the original form of payment. 

 

As your cruise has been cancelled so close to departure, each guest will also receive a Future Cruise Credit equal to 25% of the cruise fare paid on this voyage. The terms and conditions of this Future Cruise Credit appear below.

 

If you booked flights independent of Seabourn, please work with your carrier directly regarding these changes. Most airline carriers are waiving fees for travel changes related to COVID-19.

[SLSD]

2 hours ago, teamflames said:

I find just as much misinformation being spread by the “it’s just another flu” crowd.

There are several TAs who have consistently posted inaccurate facts about the virus on the SB sailors FB page clearly with an agenda.

 

I just mentioned to the TA you are talking about that Fauci is considered a preeminent expert when the TA called him an idiot.   I wasn't going to go into great detail.  The TA said that I insulted him.  I'm sure he is under a lot of stress if he thinks his livelihood is being threatened, but I'm with you, the inaccurate facts he is spreading are alarming.  Of course there is now "fake news" everywhere.  I'm sure he can quote something from somewhere, but I'm sticking with Fauci.   (Spell check is still telling me I'm misspelling his name.)

[teamflames]

5 minutes ago, SLSD said:

I just mentioned to the TA you are talking about that Fauci is considered a preeminent expert when the TA called him an idiot.   I wasn't going to go into great detail.  The TA said that I insulted him.  I'm sure he is under a lot of stress if he thinks his livelihood is being threatened, but I'm with you, the inaccurate facts he is spreading are alarming.  Of course there is now "fake news" everywhere.  I'm sure he can quote something from somewhere, but I'm sticking with Fauci.   (Spell check is still telling me I'm misspelling his name.)

Be very careful dealing with that TA. I have had many run ins with him on his other posts. If you google his name you will find some very interesting information about his past (has been censured when practicing as a lawyer). He clearly is a bully and has threatened me.

I am now just ignoring him, it is not worth my time even responding. His “facts” are almost always wrong or at best he “snippets” those that suit his agenda.

According to him, the politicians are wrong, the WHO is wrong, the medical officers are wrong.... it’s everyone else fault.

He is not the only TA on there that has made similar commentary (notice they almost never declare that they are TAs and their livelihoods are paid for by the cruise lines).

[SLSD]

22 minutes ago, teamflames said:

Be very careful dealing with that TA. I have had many run ins with him on his other posts. If you google his name you will find some very interesting information about his past (has been censured when practicing as a lawyer). He clearly is a bully and has threatened me.

I am now just ignoring him, it is not worth my time even responding. His “facts” are almost always wrong or at best he “snippets” those that suit his agenda.

According to him, the politicians are wrong, the WHO is wrong, the medical officers are wrong.... it’s everyone else fault.

He is not the only TA on there that has made similar commentary (notice they almost never declare that they are TAs and their livelihoods are paid for by the cruise lines).

Believe me, I will stay away.  I just couldn't stand by and let him call Dr. Fauci an idiot without saying something.  He is saying that Fauci is Trump's stooge.  So not true.  (I will not get into politics here, but we are in a difficult time for sure.)  The TA is a bully and misleading.  It is certainly not worth being threatened.  I am sorry that happened to you.  I stand by what  I posted though and I am glad I said it.  I would not expect people from the UK and from Australia to be familiar with Fauci and they may well believe that he is a yes man for Trump, not realizing that he is a real expert.   You can go and read the exchange.  

 

Edited to add:  I googled and read what you suggested.  Wow.  My husband is a lawyer.  Those are serious ethical complaints.  

Edited March 10, 2020 by SLSD

[ael123]

1 hour ago, Lindadave said:

We are very sorry to inform you that your Seabourn Encore cruise departing April 17, 2020, has been cancelled.

 

Seabourn has been closely monitoring the evolving situation with respect to the new coronavirus (COVID-19) that originated in mainland China. Our medical experts are being briefed regularly and coordinating closely with international health authorities to ensure we protect the health and well-being of our guests and crew, which is always our top priority.

 

The difficult decision to cancel your voyage has been made based on the additional changes we have seen recently in travel restrictions and port operations in Asia. While we expect things will stabilize, we always strive to ensure we can provide our guests with an experience that will live up to their expectations, and, due to the volume of port closures in the region, we are not able to offer the balance of destinations and sea days originally planned.  

All guests will receive a full refund of their cruise fare, Seabourn Flight Ease air, Seabourn pre- or post-cruise hotel packages or transfers, prepaid shore excursions and amenities purchased through Seabourn, and taxes, fees, and port expenses back to the original form of payment. 

 

As your cruise has been cancelled so close to departure, each guest will also receive a Future Cruise Credit equal to 25% of the cruise fare paid on this voyage. The terms and conditions of this Future Cruise Credit appear below.

 

If you booked flights independent of Seabourn, please work with your carrier directly regarding these changes. Most airline carriers are waiving fees for travel changes related to COVID-19.

Now I am not sure what to do. I was originally scheduled on a B2B March 22 and April 3 on Encore. I was given cruise credit when that itinerary changed and with that cruise credit I booked on Encore for April 17. Seabourn cancelled that cruise today. Seabourn is giving a full refund to passengers who paid cash for that cruise... but I booked with cruise credit from the B2B cruises. Does this mean I get a refund for the monies I spent for the March 22 and April 3 or do you think they will refund the cruise credit I used to book the April 17th cruise to my account. The value of the credit for our two tickets is close to $18,000.  What do you think? Also I spent a good amount of money on trip insurance which travel guard will not refund. After the first trip was turned into cruise credit travel guard gave me a trip insurance credit  which I used to cover the cost of the April 17th travel insurance. Now with this trip cancelled, I am not sure what my options are? Any legal scholars or cruise experts who want to take a crack at solving what will happen?