Luxury Cruise from West Coast to Hawaii

[njhorseman]

30 minutes ago, scottca075 said:

 

I am very well aware of PVSA, but the times we've done B2B we've have disembarked at the end of the first cruise, gone through CBP and then reembarked for the next cruise.

What you're describing is done due to a CBP requirement for the ship have a "zero count" of passengers at the end of the first cruise before the embarkation of passengers for the second cruise is permitted. It has nothing to do with the PVSA.

All the PVSA is concerned about is where you originally embarked and where you ultimately disembark, not an intermediate disembarkation at the end of the first segment of a b2b. The PVSA considers the b2b on the same ship as a single cruise even if you booked it as two separate cruises. 

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

All the PVSA is concerned about is where you originally embarked and where you ultimately disembark, not an intermediate disembarkation at the end of the first segment of a b2b. The PVSA considers the b2b on the same ship as a single cruise even if you booked it as two separate cruises. 

 

It is not an intermediate disembarkation it is a full disembarkation with a full embarkation after, once again having to show your passport and all documents. It is NOT a segment, it a completed cruise. The cruise line isn't selling a single trip from HNL to SIT, they are selling two separate cruises.

 

If people doing B2B didn't have to disembark, either virtually or actually, then your argument might have a point, but that isn't what happens.

 

When was the last time a cruise line was fined under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 for a passenger who did a B2Bas described by the OP?

[Ashland]

3 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

I am very well aware of PVSA, but the times we've done B2B we've have disembarked at the end of the first cruise, gone through CBP and then reembarked for the next cruise.

That is a B2B as most all of us understand. We have been in some ports where we didn't have to physically disembark as the CBP officer came aboard. This is handled differently in each country.

 

Then there are the so called side-by-side leaving one ship and boarding another ship same cruiseline.

 

Then leaving one cruiseline and boarding a completely different cruiseline....that's definitely two cruises to most of us.

 

The reason we love the B2B's are staying on the same ship in the same cabin.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

 

It is not an intermediate disembarkation it is a full disembarkation with a full embarkation after, once again having to show your passport and all documents. It is NOT a segment, it a completed cruise. The cruise line isn't selling a single trip from HNL to SIT, they are selling two separate cruises.

 

If people doing B2B didn't have to disembark, either virtually or actually, then your argument might have a point, but that isn't what happens.

 

When was the last time a cruise line was fined under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 for a passenger who did a B2Bas described by the OP?

I've taken many b2b cruises so I'm fully aware of the disembarkation process. You're conflating two regulations and procedures that have nothing to do with each other. For the PVSA purposes any passenger continuing on the ship for the next cruise is not considered to have disembarked . Disembarkation for PVSA purposes only occurs when you've completed all your consecutive cruises on that ship.

By the way, you're wrong about the intermediate disembarkation. It is intermediate, not full, for the b2b passengers because you only clear immigration, not customs, since your luggage remains on the ship. You don't do a full disembarkation until all your possessions leave the ship with you.

 

The reason cruise lines aren't fined for the type of b2b under discussion is because they don't permit those itineraries to be sailed. Sometimes they inadvertently allow them to be booked but eventually they get back to the passengers and advise them that the cruise would be illegal and do not permit the booking to stand.

Here's the official government document explaining the PVSA:

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Sep/PVSA-ICP.pdf

In particular pay attention to this explanation on page 11. You'll note that how a passenger's transportation is ticketed is irrelevant. In other words being booked as a b2b doesn't matter. Only where you embark and disembark matters. You have NOT disembarked at the intermediate point.

 

"NOTE: Application of the PVSA is based on the geographic locations where passengers “embark” and “disembark”. The transporting vessel’s itinerary, whether the passenger is a revenue or non-revenue passenger, or how the passenger’s transportation is ticketed, is irrelevant."

Edited April 28, 2021 by njhorseman

[KeepCalmBearOn]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

I've taken many b2b cruises so I'm fully aware of the disembarkation process.

 

Here's the official government document explaining the PVSA:

 

You didn't answer my question about the last time a cruise line was fined for a passenger doing an itinerary like the person was proposing.

 

The bigger issue is that the Passenger Vessel Service Act of 1886 doesn't address the issue.

 

Here is the entirety of the section of the law on which the "policy" you are quoting is based:

 

"46 U.S. Code § 55103. Transportation of passengers

 

 (a) In General.—Except as otherwise provided in this chapter or chapter 121 of this title, a vessel may not transport passengers between ports or places in the United States to which the coastwise laws apply, either directly or via a foreign port, unless the vessel—

 

(1) is wholly owned by citizens of the United States for purposes of engaging in the coastwise trade; and

(2) has been issued a certificate of documentation with a coastwise endorsement under chapter 121 or is exempt from documentation but would otherwise be eligible for such a certificate and endorsement.

 

(b) Penalty.—

The penalty for violating subsection (a) is $300 for each passenger transported and landed."

 

Nothing in that section would prohibit a B2B as described.

Edited April 28, 2021 by scottca075

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

 

You didn't answer my question about the last time a cruise line was fined for a passenger doing an itinerary like the person was proposing.

 

The bigger issue is that the Passenger Vessel Service Act of 1886 doesn't address the issue.

 

Here is the entirety of the section of the law on which the "policy" you are quoting is based:

 

"46 U.S. Code § 55103. Transportation of passengers

 

 (a) In General.—Except as otherwise provided in this chapter or chapter 121 of this title, a vessel may not transport passengers between ports or places in the United States to which the coastwise laws apply, either directly or via a foreign port, unless the vessel—

 

(1) is wholly owned by citizens of the United States for purposes of engaging in the coastwise trade; and

(2) has been issued a certificate of documentation with a coastwise endorsement under chapter 121 or is exempt from documentation but would otherwise be eligible for such a certificate and endorsement.

 

(b) Penalty.—

The penalty for violating subsection (a) is $300 for each passenger transported and landed."

 

Nothing in that section would prohibit a B2B as described.

Clearly you have no idea of the meaning of what you're reading and citing. In fact everything you're quoting prohibits the b2b as described because:

(1) The vessel in question is not wholly owned by citizens of the United States as it is wholly owned by a corporation domiciled in a foreign country.

(2) The vessel in question would not have have been issued a coastwise endorsement because it's ineligible for the reason of not meeting the requirements in (1), nor is it exempt from the requirement.

 

And FYI, the penalty  for violations hasn't been $300 per passenger for many years having been increased to $798 for violations occurring after November 2, 2015.

 

BTW I did answer your question. Let's try one more time...the cruise lines haven't paid for violations of this itinerary because they don't allow passengers to take it. Pretty simple, huh? No laws or regulations broken equals no fines paid. 

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Clearly you have no idea of the meaning of what you're reading and citing. In fact everything you're quoting prohibits the b2b as described because....

 

I know exactly what "coastwise trade" means and a B2B cruise where one cruise ends in Vancouver and another cruise starts in Vancouver is not prohibited by 46 U.S. Code § 55103. The "rules" that say so are interpretations by unelected bureaucrats. Nothing in 46 U.S. Code § 55103 addresses such a situation.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

 

I know exactly what "coastwise trade" means and a B2B cruise where one cruise ends in Vancouver and another cruise starts in Vancouver is not prohibited by 46 U.S. Code § 55103. The "rules" that say so are interpretations by unelected bureaucrats. Nothing in 46 U.S. Code § 55103 addresses such a situation.

It's very apparent you don't understand the law and regulations. The key to whether the cruise would be legal is where the second cruise ends. If it ends in Alaska when you've originally boarded the ship in Honolulu the cruise would be illegal if it doesn't call on a distant foreign port, despite the two individual itineraries, Honolulu to Vancouver and Vancouver to Alaska being legal.

The code is very clear on that. You've either misunderstood, misread or never read at all the key language in the code: 

"(a) In General.—Except as otherwise provided in this chapter or chapter 121 of this title, a vessel may not transport passengers between ports or places in the United States to which the coastwise laws apply, either directly or via a foreign port, unless the vessel—"

and in the case we are discussing the vessel does not meet the requirements of  (1) and (2) which are what the phrase "unless the vessel" points to .

 

The cruise under discussion would transport passengers from Honolulu to (somewhere in) Alaska...in other words between ports or places in the US to which the coastwise laws apply, hence making it clearly illegal under the law.

 

Your political narrative about "unelected bureaucrats' is totally spurious and ignores the fact that the key senior officials of every cabinet department have been nominated by the elected POTUS, confirmed to hold those offices by your elected US Senators and operate under budgets approved by both Houses of Congress and signed into law by the POTUS. What they are doing, whether you like it are not, is perfectly legal and if anyone feels those "unelected bureaucrats" are exceeding the power granted to them by law and the Constitution then they have the right to turn to the courts for relief. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by njhorseman

[KeepCalmBearOn]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

It's very apparent you don't understand the law and regulations.

 

I understand the Passenger Vessel Service Act of 1886 very well and its legislative history.

 

Quote

Your political narrative about "unelected bureaucrats' is totally spurious and ignores the fact that the key senior officials of every cabinet department have been nominated by the elected POTUS, confirmed to hold those offices

 

It's very apparent you don't understand who is responsible for writing laws.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by scottca075

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, scottca075 said:

 

I understand the Passenger Vessel Service Act of 1886 very well and its legislative history.

 

 

It's very apparent you don't understand who is responsible for writing laws.

 

What's apparent is that I won't waste another minute of my time .