Why Ask For Gender?

[JamieLogical]

My husband and I are a cis-gender, heterosexual couple who have cruised 20+ times across four different cruise line, so we have never been impacted by this issue. We love cruising and, from our experience, it seems like most cruise lines are very hospitable to LGBTQ passengers onboard.

 

We have a couple of non-binary friends who are getting married in April and thinking of taking their first ever cruise for their honeymoon. I was planning to offer them some advice, since they have never cruised before and in contemplating which cruise line to recommend, it occurred to me that all four of the major cruise lines I have sailed ask for gender on the online booking form and all of them only have "male" and "female" as available options.

 

What practical purpose could there possibly be for cruise lines requiring this information? On all of my cruises, I can't think of a single experience where gender had anything to do with the services or accommodations I received/had access to onboard, beyond maybe public bathrooms and locker rooms, but why would the cruise line need to know anything about that ahead of time?

 

For any non-binary people on these forums, how do you deal with this question on your booking? What advice and reassurances can I give my friends about getting past this booking form and allowing themselves to enjoy their onboard experiences?

[CDNPolar]

I personally believe that this is just "age old" standards that companies ask this for demographic statistics.  

 

On cruise lines, I don't particularly get it because most (high percentage) are couples that travel together and some would be families.  

 

Does it matter?  No, not really.

 

I have been after my company and some providers for many years now to at least add an "Other" category that someone could choose, but still nothing happens.

 

I wrote Viking Cruise Lines last year after a cruise where every entertainment event and every Resident Historian lecture has countless "Ladies and Gentlemen" throughout the presentation.  I asked that they consider that in today's world, they should not be so limiting in how they are addressing an audience and that this was not inclusive.

 

I was not surprised in the fact that I did not get any response from that email.  Not even a thank you we will consider it.

 

I truly believe that this is a marketing statistic thing and no one has given it any thought at the cruise line.

 

I understand why your friends would be upset by this but in my opinion (don't hate on me for this) Rome was not built in a day and we cannot expect that every organization will move with the times.

[neeuqdrazil]

(I'm also cis, but my partner and their partner are both enby, so I've been exposed to a lot of this.) 

 

I suspect a lot of it has to do with US passport issues - your passenger information has to match your passport/identification documentation. (As far as I know, that is.) 

 

I know in Canada that you can have an X (no gender identification) on your passport, but I don't know if the US has gotten there yet. 

 

Agreeing that the whole thing is stupid and regressive. 

 

I would recommend that your friends reach out to the cruise line to find out what the purpose is, and whether they can book on the phone and not identify their gender (or if it is indeed a government documentation thing.) 

[JamieLogical]

I am really hoping this issue won't turn them off from cruising. The fact that EVERY cruise line seems to require it does indicate that perhaps it is a government documentation issue and not something the cruise lines are imposing themselves. 

[CDNPolar]

2 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

I am really hoping this issue won't turn them off from cruising. The fact that EVERY cruise line seems to require it does indicate that perhaps it is a government documentation issue and not something the cruise lines are imposing themselves. 

 

Call the cruise line and ask them why they ask this....?

[Meander Ingwa]

I agree that there may be the issue of International borders and passport issues.  

5 hours ago, neeuqdrazil said:

I know in Canada that you can have an X (no gender identification) on your passport, but I don't know if the US has gotten there yet.

Yes they have within the last year or two allowed "X" as a gender . 

[Dobby36]

5 hours ago, JamieLogical said:

I am really hoping this issue won't turn them off from cruising. The fact that EVERY cruise line seems to require it does indicate that perhaps it is a government documentation issue and not something the cruise lines are imposing themselves. 

 

i hope not, too! I would still encourage them to try cruising.  Especially on a line that’s unabashadley pro-LGBTQ, like Virgin for example. Other safe bets I’d suggest would be Celebrity and Norwegian.  
 

One suggestion, at least on some lines the online checkin also asks for a title. I’d suggest they choose “hon. Or prof. Or amb”. I have often cruised with my mother of the same last name and they write mr and mrs LastName on everything, and make asssumptions that the male is paying for both people, etc.  when we switched up our titles one time for fun, it seemed less apparent.  
 

and yes the Dept of State in US has been issuing X gender markers in passports since 2022 so travel companies should follow suit if for no other reason than compliance to government standards.  

[At7Seas]

I only can comment from the situation of a gay man who made quite a number of cruises in many parts of the world. But as such I never experienced or witnessed any kind of discrimination from any cruise line or staff aboard. Even the worst cruise line did not discriminate. Perhaps unawareness of some people occurred, but not to a higher degree as elsewhere in real life. In this context I would regard cruise ships generally as a safe place for your friends on their honeymoon.
 
Our personal data are not only used for the contract we have with the cruise company, but for immigration into the countries visited as well - and these data must match. Some of these countries visited might maintain a high level of acceptance of the diverse human nature, others might be very restrictive and legally maintain the idea that gender is either male or female as stated in a birth certificate. This is not limited to cruising, but effects travelling generally. In most cases cruising is even easier from a practical view, because the face check in front of foreign border officers is the exception when cruising.
 
Please understand that it is a pragmatic thing to deal with foreign immigration authorities and not the place to fight for human rights. If the passport shows an F or M just use exactly that, if not it becomes more complicated, just because it is no legal option in many countries. Practically this could be choosing a cruise first and thereafter contacting that company and asking for advice in the exact situation. This could be using the more likely binary match regarding the given name in the passport, even if this causes inconvenient feelings. We all are so much more than the few data submitted by a cruise line and limited choice in a digital form should not limit our lives.

[JamieLogical]

3 hours ago, At7Seas said:

I only can comment from the situation of a gay man who made quite a number of cruises in many parts of the world. But as such I never experienced or witnessed any kind of discrimination from any cruise line or staff aboard. Even the worst cruise line did not discriminate. Perhaps unawareness of some people occurred, but not to a higher degree as elsewhere in real life. In this context I would regard cruise ships generally as a safe place for your friends on their honeymoon.
 
Our personal data are not only used for the contract we have with the cruise company, but for immigration into the countries visited as well - and these data must match. Some of these countries visited might maintain a high level of acceptance of the diverse human nature, others might be very restrictive and legally maintain the idea that gender is either male or female as stated in a birth certificate. This is not limited to cruising, but effects travelling generally. In most cases cruising is even easier from a practical view, because the face check in front of foreign border officers is the exception when cruising.
 
Please understand that it is a pragmatic thing to deal with foreign immigration authorities and not the place to fight for human rights. If the passport shows an F or M just use exactly that, if not it becomes more complicated, just because it is no legal option in many countries. Practically this could be choosing a cruise first and thereafter contacting that company and asking for advice in the exact situation. This could be using the more likely binary match regarding the given name in the passport, even if this causes inconvenient feelings. We all are so much more than the few data submitted by a cruise line and limited choice in a digital form should not limit our lives.

 

If the information legitimately is required for documentation/immigration purposes, then this makes much more sense. I can understand the necessity in that situation. I still think the question could be reserved for the online check-in when you have to provide other passport and travel document details, if that is the case. It still seems unnecessary and off-putting for cruise lines to require this information at booking.

[At7Seas]

I don’t think it’s very thoughtfully designed, but it definitely is part of the personal set of data and I often saw reminders to use exactly data as stated in the passport already when booking. There are simply no two sets of data for the same passenger and there are international agreements what must be collected. One possibility I see would be leaving this question out of the booking form completely, which might upset those who want to see their Mr or Mrs on the bill and other documents. So only workable solution would be making this answer non-compulsory during booking - until passport details are needed. Now you should convince the cruise lines that the effort of changing their booking systems will result in more business.

[JamieLogical]

Good news! My friends went ahead and booked a Celebrity cruise to Alaska for their honeymoon. Hope they will catch the cruising bug and book a cruise with my husband and me somewhere down the road!

[CDNPolar]

Happy to hear JamieLogical that your friends are moving ahead.

 

Personally as a gay man that grew up through the 70's and 80's and lived through so much discrimination and fight to get to where we are today, I sometimes think that we all have to be realistic that change in these areas does NOT happen overnight.  

 

There are some great and thoughtful responses here that make me think and addressing things that I did not think of initially such as immigration requirements to countries where only M and F exist as legal designations...  makes you think.

 

As much as I take for granted as a Canadian that the world is open and accepting because Canada is, the fact is that it is not.

 

My husband and I realize without a doubt that there are many countries that we have traveled to and will travel to that we could be arrested and imprisoned just for the fact that we love each other and are a couple.  Unfortunately the world does not move in step...

 

I have a question though, for those that have a gender X on their passport, drivers license, etc., are there countries that you might not be able to enter now because they don't recognize that gender X?

 

I don't know this and I am curious of this. 

 

Does the Canadian government when issuing a passport with gender X give you a run down of countries where this might not be accepted?

 

Can you arrive at a country and be denied entry because you have gender X on your passport?

 

As an over 60 gay man who again, lived through the fight in Canada and now has a wonderful life because of that fight, I don't know some of these things.  I am a live and let live individual.  I don't pretend to understand an individuals feelings or choice to not declare themselves as male or female, because I don't have those feelings, but I believe that every person has the right to be who they feel they are inside.

 

Again, happy your friends will be cruising.  I hope for them it is an amazing experience.

Edited June 17, 2023 by CDNPolar

[phillygwm]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:10 AM, JamieLogical said:

What practical purpose could there possibly be for cruise lines requiring this information? On all of my cruises, I can't think of a single experience where gender had anything to do with the services or accommodations I received/had access to onboard, beyond maybe public bathrooms and locker rooms, but why would the cruise line need to know anything about that ahead of time?

 

I'm CIS-male.  I was recently making air reservations and saw the gender dropdown.  It did include X and U (undisclosed).  You can't skip it (on the AA website anyway) and they state that it has to match whatever is on your photo ID. I suspect it's a Customs -- or TSA for US domestic travel -- thing but I can't state that with certainty.

[yyjguy]

Passenger vessels must file complete crew and passenger manifests with a country’s Immigration authorities hours/days prior to arrival. Not all countries recognize genders other than M/F. Therefore in order

to comply with the laws of the country the ship will dock at, not cruise line policies, the question must be asked.  Far easier to comply, distasteful as that might be, than facing denied landing, arrest, or harassment from authorities on arrival. 

[CDNPolar]

I have done quite a bit of reading on this recently and as much as I support any gender you choose to represent yourself, travel and certain countries that you may visit or transit through may be a long time catching up to the liberal views of countries like Canada and others that acknowledge X gender.

 

Simply because our home country acknowledges an individual right to express gender, does not mean that it is an open passport to any country.

 

Some countries still see homosexuality as illegal and having an X gender could also spark concern at a border or immigration check point.  I know that having an X gender does not mean that the individual is homosexual by definition, I am only suggesting that some countries and governments bucket all these types of things together and you become suspect in their eyes.

 

The Canadian government has quite a bit of useful information/advice on this subject when travelling.

 

https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/health-safety/lgbt-travel

 

 

[At7Seas]

Even here in so “civilised” Europe we have with Hungary an EU member that has defined “the right of having the gender as determined during birth” and put what is “man” and “woman” into the constitution, just to prohibit legal changes or non binary gender. Tourists visiting short time from Canada or USA don’t require visa and entry into Europe just requires a stamp at the point of entry, but I don’t want to imagine what problems could occur if somebody with an X in the passport needs to apply for a long term visa or residence permit.

[CDNPolar]

5 hours ago, At7Seas said:

Even here in so “civilised” Europe we have with Hungary an EU member that has defined “the right of having the gender as determined during birth” and put what is “man” and “woman” into the constitution, just to prohibit legal changes or non binary gender. Tourists visiting short time from Canada or USA don’t require visa and entry into Europe just requires a stamp at the point of entry, but I don’t want to imagine what problems could occur if somebody with an X in the passport needs to apply for a long term visa or residence permit.

 

Canadians and Americans will need an ETIAS Visa starting sometime next year to visit all EU countries.  We don't know what kind of restrictions may come from this as yet.

 

The fun may begin then.  To date we do not need a Visa.

[At7Seas]

1 hour ago, CDNPolar said:

 

Canadians and Americans will need an ETIAS Visa starting sometime next year to visit all EU countries.  We don't know what kind of restrictions may come from this as yet.

 

The fun may begin then.  To date we do not need a Visa.

 

Indeed! Honestly, I did hear about very long ago and as so many projects the member states can‘t agree on it could have died a silent death. That the introduction is planned didn‘t reach me. However, the “fun” as you describe it can be avoided by entering the EU through a country that is not turning backwards into the Middle Ages, since that one seems to be responsible for the application.

[MarySueSays]

I'm nonbinary but have a binary gender marker on my IDs. 

 

The thing that gets right up my left nostril while cruising? Bless the staff, they are so kind and wonderful and work their behinds off, and I have never said a word but by the end of the cruise I am tired as heck of being called "Mrs." and ma'am.

 

I also know that is not going to change any time soon because you just know some cranky person who doesn't get a gendered honorific will pitch a most epic fit at Guest Services so I see no way this will end any time soon. 

[CDNPolar]

Background...  I am in Learning and Development and I do my best to de-genderize by never saying "Ladies and Gentlemen" and will always when a typical statement would include He/She, I add They to that...

 

All the countries that I work with however are off shore to North America, and none of them really understand why I am doing this.

 

We just returned from a River Cruise through Eastern Europe.

 

On the ship, with every port talk and every announcement, "Ladies and Gentlemen" was repeated before each new statement....

 

"Ladies and Gentlemen, tonight we are going to...."

"Now Ladies and Gentlemen, we are going to give you information about..."

"Ladies and Gentlemen, we hope you enjoy your dinner..."

 

On the shore excursions, all the guides (local to the country and city) also addressed us as Ladies and Gentlemen, and also inserted this in front of almost every new statement.

 

It was so painfully obvious to me, but this is how the world has worked up to this point.

 

I have written emails about this to one cruise line specifically, and no response from them.  They ALWAYS respond to my emails but not this one.  I don't think they know what to do with this.

[notscb]

On 6/15/2023 at 9:10 AM, JamieLogical said:

What practical purpose could there possibly be for cruise lines requiring this information?

 

As others have pointed out, it's more to do with homeland security/customs than anything else. Passenger manifests must match and are usually pre-screened by customs long before you step foot on a cruise (which is why they ask for your ID information a month before).

[soupchef]

I agree this is an old school practise. After I went on Symphony in 2021 I was a little taken aback by the experience as a gender queer individual. The staff, although super nice, greeted every person with "sir" or "ma'am." As a wo,man who looks quite masculine, I was misgendered several times a day. I think in todays day and age things can be done differently 

[CDNPolar]

I think - and please don't take this the wrong way, because it is not that I don't agree with you - but we in Canada and the USA and some European countries are very lucky with the acceptance and openness that we experience.  This is not the case in many global locations.

 

I work with Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Philippines, South Africa and the UK.  I am in leaning and development with all these countries, and it is shocking how different each of these countries deals with gender queer individuals, trans, and even just a gay man or woman.    I had what I thought from previous interactions to be a very worldly Philippines Manager say to me the other day....  "Can you believe that we now have THEY/THEM pronouns here now too". I was kind of shocked.

 

I have written our favourite cruise line a couple of times to no response by the way (when they normally respond to everything) about the use of "Ladies and Gentlemen" 150 times in an address to the guests during the port talks or lectures in the theatre, and they don't seem to get it.

 

I agree that things can be done differently but change is not immediate and certainly not adopted by all cultures at the same rate.

 

I never walk into a training room and say "Ladies and Gentlemen" I say "Hello Everyone - Pleasure to have you all here today".  I build all training materials to say "He, She, or They" where I used to only acknowledge He and She... but I am the exception to the rule.  I talk with other Learning and Development professionals in large corporations and these considerations are not even on the agenda yet, and this is in Canada and the USA.  

 

I am a sis gender gay man.  I am not gender queer.  As a sis gender gay man, I still don't expect everyone in the world to accept and treat me with the respect that I want and expect that I get for the most part living in Canada and Toronto.  I just personally think that we cannot have expectations that high.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by CDNPolar

[ToriOKC]

Well said and thank you !!! I’m a trans female and I stopped long ago with the pronoun fight. Every time I get misgendered I always think, “if we would just drop the sir, ma’am thing life would be wonderful”. It won’t happen in my lifetime and I accept that. 
 

Thank you for your advocacy and I’m proud of you !! 😊😊

[CDNPolar]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:58 PM, ToriOKC said:

Well said and thank you !!! I’m a trans female and I stopped long ago with the pronoun fight. Every time I get misgendered I always think, “if we would just drop the sir, ma’am thing life would be wonderful”. It won’t happen in my lifetime and I accept that. 
 

Thank you for your advocacy and I’m proud of you !! 😊😊

 

We are a label driven society and yes, Sir, and Ma'am are labels too... Miss, Ms, Mr. are all labels.  But this is all driven by culture and history.  For some this is just so ingrained it is hard to shake it off.

 

Unconscious bias is a big thing as well.  We don't realize the unconscious bias that we have and we are promoting as long as we continue to use these gender identifiers.  But again, other countries still don't even accept gay, so how will we manage to get them to acknowledge trans, and anyone that is gender queer.

 

We have come a long way - in my lifetime anyway.   I lived through AIDS in the 80's where many of my friends died.  Where we could not attend a Pride celebration without fear of violence, and we were attacked on the streets on a Saturday night going to a club.  My city, my country is not a place where I live in fear any more, but there are many places in the world that we still must be fearful of just because of who we are inside.