Haven Question

[havoc315]

17 hours ago, IAcruising said:

I've been reading along, I really have. But I'm trying to wrap my head around all this intense discussion about what to me is essentially Econ101.

 

Is it normal for NCL to have a DOS available after final payment, for which they need to discount in order to sell?

 

If yes, then they are charging too much to begin with, because the demand at that level isn't there.

 

In no, then they need more DOS's or charge a higher price, because the demand is higher than the supply.

 

What am I missing?

 

Yes and no. It’s more advanced Econ. Cruise lines, like airlines, use differential pricing. The cost of a guest sailing in an inside cabin is the same, to the cruise line, as a guest in an ocean view cabin. Different people are willing to pay different prices, so the cruise lines create segmentation so that people willing to pay more, can pay more. 
 

So let’s say a ship has 10 Haven suites. If they priced them at $10,000 each…. And all 10 sold 6-12 months before the cruise, they may have priced them too low. (NCL gets $100,000).
there might be 8 people willing to pay $12,000… but 10 people willing to pay $10,000 or less. 
So if they start the price at $12,000.. sell 8 suites at that price. At the 120 day mark, they drop the price to $10,000– sell the remaining 2 suites. Instead of $100,000… NCL got $116,000. 
 

So they use that 120 day final payment window to create differentiation in the market. 
They have different cabin categories, partially to get more money from people willing to pay more.  (Many consumers will book with a budget in mind, and then book the cabin category that matches their budget.)

 

With all categories, there isn’t much danger in starting prices too high, as they can always drop them. 
But if you generate more demand, you’ll sustain higher prices. 
In that sense, a cruise ship is a perfect Econ 101 model. There is a set supply of cabins. Since the supply does not change on any given cruise— the market price is purely set by demand. Increase demand, you’ll increase the price.

[havoc315]

48 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

It depends. You can generate all the metrics you want. That’s what the mainstream media does… take a bunch of data out of context and makes fake news. 

 

All that counts is what is available on your cruise. On our April 2024 cruise, the Haven is 100% sold out. On our August 2024 cruise, the Haven is 100% sold out. 

April is well within 120 days, so I’d be curious when it sold out. (The whole business model is to sell out every cruise even if you need to drastically cut prices). 
 

That the August 2024 cruise is already sold out, I’d expect NCL to raise prices on the corresponding voyage next year. 

[Sailing12Away]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:16 PM, havoc315 said:

And YES -- The Star Class is far beyond anything NCL offers!!!  AND THAT'S THE WHOLE ISSUE.   Why doesn't NCL offer it?  How many potential customers is NCL Haven losing to RCL Star class?

 

21 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

I never said it was worth it to me. I said it was worth it to SOMEONE, as those rooms are getting booked. Thus, objectively the market exists. Whether it’s worth it TO ME or not is irrelevant. Whether it’s worth it TO YOU is irrelevant. The only question is: is it worth it to enough people to sell it.  RCL shows the answer is yes. Other luxury cruise lines show the answer is yes. 

You certainly implied it with the statement earlier by stating that it is far beyond anything NCL offers. My question for the 3rd (4th? 5th?) time is what are you basing that off of?

[havoc315]

2 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

 

You certainly implied it with the statement earlier by stating that it is far beyond anything NCL offers. My question for the 3rd (4th? 5th?) time is what are you basing that off of?

??? Simple, NCL does not offer those same inclusive benefits built into the cabin price. That’s been stated, many many many times. 

[Sailing12Away]

Ok, so you're trying to say that people are willing to pay an extra 20K to be in Star class because it includes unlimited internet, premium drinks, and unlimited specialty dining for free.

 

Something that NCL's free at sea plus program can give you for about 1K - you're saying people are willing to pay 20K for it because it's branded with the RCC logo. Got it. 

Because I've asked a bunch of times what else are you getting, and you haven't said anything. So ok, RCC is the new RR of cruising. 

 

Where's the emoji for a brick wall so I can go slam my head into it?

[havoc315]

26 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

Ok, so you're trying to say that people are willing to pay an extra 20K to be in Star class because it includes unlimited internet, premium drinks, and unlimited specialty dining for free.

 

Something that NCL's free at sea plus program can give you for about 1K - you're saying people are willing to pay 20K for it because it's branded with the RCC logo. Got it. 

Because I've asked a bunch of times what else are you getting, and you haven't said anything. So ok, RCC is the new RR of cruising. 

 

Where's the emoji for a brick wall so I can go slam my head into it?

No.  I’m saying that NCL does not offer some benefits that other cruise lines provide.  And that there is a market for those benefits. And thus, providing those benefits would let them charge more. You’re the one who is obsessed with RCL and a $20,000 number. 
 

I actually discussed how, if benefits cost NCL $100, they would be worthwhile to NCL if it allowed them to charge $101 more.  
(You also don’t understand luxury travel, travelers willing to pay more for inclusiveness rather than having to pay for add-ons).  

So I’ll speak slow in case you hurt your head in that brick wall — “providing more benefits to the top suites would increase demand, and thereby let them charge higher prices.”

 

Not sure why such a simple concept is so hard to understand. 

[Pitzel]

Having sailed both Star Class on RCCL and in the Haven on NCL, I would say that Star Class is hands down the superior product. But, we stumbled into Star Class because we had booked an Aqua Theater suite shortly before Star Class was initially announced. We got all of the benefits, but we locked into a significantly lower price because Star Class wasn't even a thing when we booked. The same suite a year later would have been 2X what we paid for it.

Star Class does include a TON of value (included gratuities, included beverages, unlimited specialty dining, in suite mini bar that is always stocked, unlimited WIFI, etc.), but it also includes a lot of intangibles that might be harder to put a price on: Like staff members who recognize the Star Class key card and whisk you out of lines and give you priority treatment, a Genie who makes you feel incredibly special and taken care of, and personally selected gifts at the end of the cruise, among other things. We were in tears when we left that sailing because it truly had been a magical time and we were very sad to leave it.

Star Class was amazing (especially at the price we paid), but I would be hard pressed to say that it was amazing enough to warrant 2X the cost (or more!), which is why we haven't booked Star Class since then and have chosen to sail NCL in the Haven because it offers a higher cost/benefit ratio to us.

[havoc315]

27 minutes ago, Pitzel said:

Having sailed both Star Class on RCCL and in the Haven on NCL, I would say that Star Class is hands down the superior product. But, we stumbled into Star Class because we had booked an Aqua Theater suite shortly before Star Class was initially announced. We got all of the benefits, but we locked into a significantly lower price because Star Class wasn't even a thing when we booked. The same suite a year later would have been 2X what we paid for it.

Star Class does include a TON of value (included gratuities, included beverages, unlimited specialty dining, in suite mini bar that is always stocked, unlimited WIFI, etc.), but it also includes a lot of intangibles that might be harder to put a price on: Like staff members who recognize the Star Class key card and whisk you out of lines and give you priority treatment, a Genie who makes you feel incredibly special and taken care of, and personally selected gifts at the end of the cruise, among other things. We were in tears when we left that sailing because it truly had been a magical time and we were very sad to leave it.

Star Class was amazing (especially at the price we paid), but I would be hard pressed to say that it was amazing enough to warrant 2X the cost (or more!), which is why we haven't booked Star Class since then and have chosen to sail NCL in the Haven because it offers a higher cost/benefit ratio to us.

 

Well said.  Yes, different people will place different value in different things. There are people who have the means to book suites, but stick to inside cabins because they don't see the value in higher accommodations. First question is always, "can the person afford it." Second question is, "will they think it's worth it." Thus, even to many people who can afford it (a small market), the Star class may not be worthwhile -- It's why RCL doesn't solely have a Star class, and also markets lesser suite classes. 

Particularly for luxury type products, the luxury buyer is often willing to pay more than "the sum of the parts" -- which makes it a lucrative profitable market. Look at First Class airfare -- often 10-20x the price of a coach ticket, for double the space, cocktails, and a better meal.  In pure $$$, not worth 10-20x the price of coach ticket. 

 

[WarfRatWA]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:33 PM, Sailing12Away said:

Ok, so you're trying to say that people are willing to pay an extra 20K to be in Star class because it includes unlimited internet, premium drinks, and unlimited specialty dining for free.

 

Something that NCL's free at sea plus program can give you for about 1K - you're saying people are willing to pay 20K for it because it's branded with the RCC logo. Got it. 

Because I've asked a bunch of times what else are you getting, and you haven't said anything. So ok, RCC is the new RR of cruising. 

 

Where's the emoji for a brick wall so I can go slam my head into it?

I get your point and I agree.

 

Sailed in Star class on a Quantum class last summer.  3rd sailing in star (Oasis x2) and likely the last for the foreseeable future.  Genie is great as you say for cutting the line and having drinks ready for us at shows, but the RCCL product really isn't our cup of tea and the services of the genie are not sufficient to overcome that.  I could stomach lop sided financial metrics (which star class is) in the cost benefit if the intangibles did something for us...but, the intangibles, which are subjective, are quite average.  We find NCL Haven to be a superior product in the mass market category.