Haven Question

[cruiseny4life]

2 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

We know they are small, because we know what NCL charges for them.

Upgrading drink package: $29 per person, per day. Obviously, it costs NCL less than that. 
Estimate the cost to NCL is $15 per day (probably even less). 
7-day cruise — that’s $210. 
Pre-paid specialty meal — $45-$50. Let’s conservatively say it costs NCL $35. So a dinner for 2– $70. 
 

Thermal spa doesn’t really have any “added” cost for NCL — if anything, giving 1 day passes to Haven guests may make more money from NCL as guests love it and upgrade to a 1 week pass. But being conservative, let’s say a 1-day pass for 2 guests “costs” NCL $100. 
 

So at most, my suggested extras would “cost” NCL another $380. That’s conservative, it’s likely far less.  
 

On any given week long cruise, a suite may run $5000+ more than a balcony cabin. 
 

So yes, with NCL taking it an additional $5000 of revenue, $380 in perks is relatively small.  
(If I was more liberal in my estimates, I’d dare say my suggest perks are only costing NCL about another $150-$200). 

I'm not going to necessarily disagree with you on any of your points. A true all-inclusive option would be nice! Not sure I'd take it as I have no real desire for the Premium Plus beverage package. I'd use it, but I don't need it. 

 

I'd love it if the thermal suite were included in the Haven too, but would they then need to add Vibe? I probably don't want Vibe. Would the all-inclusive rate go up by $250'ish for Vibe and $250'ish for thermal suite? How it is now, I only pay about $250 (ok it was $349 on Pr1ma, but for an 11 day cruise) for the thermal suite.

 

Also, NCL does have some thermal suite options onboard a few ships. Pr1ma, V!va, Breakaway, and Getaway have a sauna onboard. Pr1ma class have an ice room also. If I cruise one of these ships, I'm going to really reconsider the thermal suite, but I do really, really enjoy those heated loungers. 

 

Anyway, all-inclusive sounds great! Really, it does and I'd love NCL to add on an all-inclusive option for those that want it. I'm not sure I'm one of those passengers though.

 

What I do really enjoy about the Haven (and believe it is a need) is the attentive service that makes my vacation feel more special. Having a butler who knows what we need is nice, but having bartenders that really go out of their way to make amazing drinks is delightful! Having a concierge available so I don't need to wait in the guest services line is great! I love the priority tender disembarkation. The options in the restaurant creates the most elevated meal service onboard, even if the menus don't change. But, being able to order a 13 piece shrimp cocktail makes my husband happy. I enjoy being able to get a slab of prime rib with a crab cake. Or having Eggs Benedict with crab cake. 

[havoc315]

40 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

I'm not going to necessarily disagree with you on any of your points. A true all-inclusive option would be nice! Not sure I'd take it as I have no real desire for the Premium Plus beverage package. I'd use it, but I don't need it. 

 

I'd love it if the thermal suite were included in the Haven too, but would they then need to add Vibe? I probably don't want Vibe. Would the all-inclusive rate go up by $250'ish for Vibe and $250'ish for thermal suite? How it is now, I only pay about $250 (ok it was $349 on Pr1ma, but for an 11 day cruise) for the thermal suite.

 

Also, NCL does have some thermal suite options onboard a few ships. Pr1ma, V!va, Breakaway, and Getaway have a sauna onboard. Pr1ma class have an ice room also. If I cruise one of these ships, I'm going to really reconsider the thermal suite, but I do really, really enjoy those heated loungers. 

 

Anyway, all-inclusive sounds great! Really, it does and I'd love NCL to add on an all-inclusive option for those that want it. I'm not sure I'm one of those passengers though.

 

What I do really enjoy about the Haven (and believe it is a need) is the attentive service that makes my vacation feel more special. Having a butler who knows what we need is nice, but having bartenders that really go out of their way to make amazing drinks is delightful! Having a concierge available so I don't need to wait in the guest services line is great! I love the priority tender disembarkation. The options in the restaurant creates the most elevated meal service onboard, even if the menus don't change. But, being able to order a 13 piece shrimp cocktail makes my husband happy. I enjoy being able to get a slab of prime rib with a crab cake. Or having Eggs Benedict with crab cake. 

I’m not even suggesting true “all inclusive.”

 

Regardless, for Haven perks, for regular guest experience, etc, there is a business cycle of growth vs contraction. 
 

“Guest satisfaction is down, repeat bookings are down, losing customers to competitors that offer more!” — eventually this leads to “invest in adding more benefits, invest in outdoing the competition, invest in improving the guest experience” 

 

Then eventually comes the contraction cycle, “we can increase our profitability by cutting some of our costs and increased our upcharges. Let’s cut some of those production shows. Instead of 1 butler serving 6 suites, we can make do with 1 butler for 12 suites.. we can offer cheaper food in the MDR… charge more for room service..”

 

 

[cruiseny4life]

3 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

I’m not even suggesting true “all inclusive.”

Are you suggesting anything at all? I'm interested to know what it is that you are suggesting...if anything.

[havoc315]

9 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Are you suggesting anything at all? I'm interested to know what it is that you are suggesting...if anything.

I suggest a few potential haven perks above. 

[Jordan61]

1 hour ago, cruiseny4life said:

But, being able to order a 13 piece shrimp cocktail makes my husband happy. I enjoy being able to get a slab of prime rib with a crab cake. Or having Eggs Benedict with crab cake. 

 

I'm pretty sure my husband ate two to three lobster tails every night. Sometimes with a steak, sometimes without. When I booked our cruise for this year, one of the first things he said was, "oh, I just remembered about the lobster tails!" 😄

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, havoc315 said:

(If I was more liberal in my estimates, I’d dare say my suggest perks are only costing NCL about another $150-$200). 

Now multiply that 'small' cost by the number who sail Norwegian per year.

[wolft927]

Our waiter Christian on the Escape early January insisted in bring lobster tails to every meal lol. Yes sir, dont mind if i do lol

 

[havoc315]

8 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Now multiply that 'small' cost by the number who sail Norwegian per year.

And multiply the revenue by the number of guests. Thus, it’s a relatively small number. 
 

It’s less than 2-4% of the added revenue of a Haven guest. Less than 1-2% of the overall Haven guest revenue. 
 

The real question is what’s the profit margin on a Haven guest. For a regular guest, 1% is likely a significant slice of the profit margin.  If 1-2% is a significant slice of Haven guest profit margin, then they have much bigger problems. 
 

Now, nobody can blame them for making business decisions to maximize profit. The legitimate question is whether their evaluation is correct:

They could increase their Haven costs by 1-2%, and raise their prices 1-2%: in theory, maintain the same profits. Potentially, increase profits if the extra perks raise the demand by more than 1-2%.  Potentially lose money, as the higher prices reduce demand. 
 

They could increase their Haven costs by 1-2%, keeping prices the same — In the hopes that the improved customer experience gained will outweigh the costs, as it stimulates higher guest satisfaction, thereby driving greater demand. 
 

For now, they have likely concluded that a small investment in Haven benefits would not increase demand. They don’t feel like they are losing customers to other cruise lines that may offer just a bit more.  
Are they right?  I don’t know.  But I do know such decisions are usually short sighted. The “extra mile” tends to pay long term dividends.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

For now, they have likely concluded that a small investment in Haven benefits would not increase demand. They don’t feel like they are losing customers to other cruise lines that may offer just a bit more.  
Are they right?  I don’t know.  But I do know such decisions are usually short sighted. The “extra mile” tends to pay long term dividends.

Increased demand?  They're are sailing at 105+% capacity now.  

Short sighted?  Many the firm that has gone backrupt going the extra mile?

But, I'm sure NCL would appreciate your sharing your analysis with them.   

[havoc315]

13 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Increased demand?  They're are sailing at 105+% capacity now.  

Short sighted?  Many the firm that has gone backrupt going the extra mile?

But, I'm sure NCL would appreciate your sharing your analysis with them.   

Haven suites are often available for upgrade bids.  Most cruises are not sailing with suites 100% full at full price. 
 

Further, even where you have 100% occupancy— you still want to increase demand. As increased demand lets you increase prices and increase profit. Economics 101.  
The basic goal of any business is to increase demand, but the goal is to increase demand more than you increase cost. 
Whether a 1-2% increase in costs would increase demand by more than 1-2%? It depends on how that money is spent, and largely is dependent on the competition. 
If competitors offer more for less, then overtime your demand will suffer.  

[RocketMan275]

10 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

Haven suites are often available for upgrade bids.  Most cruises are not sailing with suites 100% full at full price. 

Proves nothing.  I've had the 'opportunity' to bid on several Haven upgrades even though in those cases the Haven was sold out.  Most reports are that most Haven are sold out.

As too your analysis.   You're presenting a very one-sided case.  It is most unlikely that NCL hasn't examined these costs/perks.  They have far more information than you and far more incentive to make the right decisions concerning what benefits to offer at what price points.  They are professionals who are paid to make these decisions.  We are not.  

[havoc315]

21 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Proves nothing.  I've had the 'opportunity' to bid on several Haven upgrades even though in those cases the Haven was sold out.  Most reports are that most Haven are sold out.

As too your analysis.   You're presenting a very one-sided case.  It is most unlikely that NCL hasn't examined these costs/perks.  They have far more information than you and far more incentive to make the right decisions concerning what benefits to offer at what price points.  They are professionals who are paid to make these decisions.  We are not.  

? I’m not trying to prove anything. 
I just checked the cruise I’m taking soon — Boston to Bermuda.  Checked a date where final payment deadline is soon. Over 5 different suite categories were still available. 
 

And of course NCL has examined their costs and perks.  That’s why, as I said above, this tends to lead to a constant cycle of adjustment. 
There is always an ongoing cycle— increase perks, benefits, investment— in order to drive demand. 
Then there is always a period where they look to cut costs.  
 

Right now, it appears they are in the cost cutting phase of this cycle (look at the entertainment cuts as an example). 
At some point in the future, that trend will reverse. 
 

It’s always an ongoing cycle. And yes, they are always analyzing the effects of prices, costs, benefits. They try to analyze proactively (projections), but ultimately they constantly need to make adjustments based on hindsight. (One of the most extreme examples in business history being New Coke— and Coca Cola certainly had more information than me, yet they still made a historic error ). 
 

Edited January 31 by havoc315

[RocketMan275]

18 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

? I’m not trying to prove anything. 
I just checked the cruise I’m taking soon — Boston to Bermuda.  Checked a date where final payment deadline is soon. Over 5 different suite categories were still available. 

That means the cruise date is many weeks away.  I'm not sure that means anything.  Now check the dates on near term cruises.  My Haven cruise in Feb has been sold out for the haven for well over a month.

[havoc315]

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

That means the cruise date is many weeks away.  I'm not sure that means anything.  Now check the dates on near term cruises.  My Haven cruise in Feb has been sold out for the haven for well over a month.

I think you just proved my point — It didn’t sell out until after the 120 day final payment — In other words, it didn’t sell out until they started accepting discounted bids. 
The time to judge is before the 120 final payment deadline, before they start discounting. 
if they have to discount in order to sell the suite, then it’s not “100% demand.”

 

 

[RocketMan275]

20 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

I think you just proved my point — It didn’t sell out until after the 120 day final payment — In other words, it didn’t sell out until they started accepting discounted bids. 
The time to judge is before the 120 final payment deadline, before they start discounting. 
if they have to discount in order to sell the suite, then it’s not “100% demand.”

 

 

When does NCL send out upgrade bids for Haven?

[wolft927]

So we sailed on the Escape earlier this month in the Haven. I can tell you that the Haven was completely sold out before the 120 day mark. We have sailed the Haven 4 times in the past 2 years and every one has sold out. Never heard anyone getting the upgrade awarded. Now as for balconies, have seen alot of people going from wither inside or ocean view to balconies about 30 days out. The Haven bids I have won always were awarded about 3 to 5 days out from sailing. 

[DMH15]

I do realize every ship / every sailing is different but… here are some comments:

 

I was a long-time NCL Haven and suite cruiser when I tried MSC.  

 

On MSC YC I was provided Thermal suite perk.  I loved it.  It was quiet and relaxing. Got a ceramic heated lounger any time I went. 
 

On NCL Epic in DOS the 3 of us bought the Thermal pass.  We hated it.  It was loud and packed.  Over a week waited and finally got a heated thermal lounger one time.  Never got a day bed.  Hot tubs were “party central” with drunks.  
 

On MSC I thought I bought wi-fi.  It was fine.  
 

On NCL I did buy wifi several times just to stay connected and once for niece who was studying. 

[havoc315]

45 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

When does NCL send out upgrade bids for Haven?

It’s not just upgrade bids. They reduce the public prices shortly after the 120 day window. They don’t generally cut prices before the 120 day window, as that would lead to existing passengers cancelling and re-booking cheaper. 
 

I’ve seen fairly significant price cuts shortly after the 120 day mark. 
 

Here is an example of Haven pricing for the Gem, end of March this year:

 

Edited January 31 by havoc315

[havoc315]

25 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

So we sailed on the Escape earlier this month in the Haven. I can tell you that the Haven was completely sold out before the 120 day mark. We have sailed the Haven 4 times in the past 2 years and every one has sold out. Never heard anyone getting the upgrade awarded. Now as for balconies, have seen alot of people going from wither inside or ocean view to balconies about 30 days out. The Haven bids I have won always were awarded about 3 to 5 days out from sailing. 

Which is it, Haven is always sold out, or you have won Haven bids?

if you’ve won Haven bids, that means it was NOT sold out at full price, and they had to discount it to sell it. 
 

Though nowadays, I just book the Haven, I used to pay for an upgrade on an unsold suite.  
 

Of course some cruises sell out before the 120 day mark, but most do not.  
 

 

[wolft927]

15 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

Which is it, Haven is always sold out, or you have won Haven bids?

if you’ve won Haven bids, that means it was NOT sold out at full price, and they had to discount it to sell it. 
 

Though nowadays, I just book the Haven, I used to pay for an upgrade on an unsold suite.  
 

Of course some cruises sell out before the 120 day mark, but most do not.  
 

 

Have not won a bid for Haven since the first few months of restart. Have paid outright for my past 4 havens 

[havoc315]

2 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

Have not won a bid for Haven since the first few months of restart. Have paid outright for my past 4 havens 

Ok…. Seems they’ve gotten better at booking the Haven rooms up with significant price drops instead of bids. I’m typically seeing 20-30% price drops 60-90 days before the cruise. 

[RocketMan275]

36 minutes ago, havoc315 said:

It’s not just upgrade bids. They reduce the public prices shortly after the 120 day window. They don’t generally cut prices before the 120 day window, as that would lead to existing passengers cancelling and re-booking cheaper. 
 

I’ve seen fairly significant price cuts shortly after the 120 day mark. 
 

Here is an example of Haven pricing for the Gem, end of March this year:

 

Now provide some evidence for a ship with a real Haven, not one of those old ships that do not have a restaurant or bar or a 'ship within a ship.'

[havoc315]

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Now provide some evidence for a ship with a real Haven, not one of those old ships that do not have a restaurant or bar or a 'ship within a ship.'

ok… The Viva, Bliss, Getaway:

Truthfully, they tend to get even bigger discounts as they have even more Haven rooms to fill. (And yes, after they fill most of the rooms at a discount, sometimes they then increase the price a bit). 

 

[graphicguy]

Haven on Epic last October.  Sold out.  No one I talked to “won a bid”.

 

Prima Haven leaving tomorrow.  Sold out a while ago.

 

Both ships sailing overcapacity.

 

People want a “deal”.  I get it.

 

But, if you’re waiting for the claimed inevitable price drop because of a perceived lack of demand, good luck.  

 

I’ve sailed Haven 5x (soon to be 6x).  The time to book those cabins is early, months before final

payment.  They sell out first out of all cabin types.  If you see a Haven fare you like, book it.  Waiting for a price drop on Haven cabins, that very rarely happen, will frustrate the dickens out of you. Bidding on one. at least in the last couple of years, unless you bid full price, will leave you disappointed. 

 

 

 

[david_sobe]

20 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Haven on Epic last October.  Sold out.  No one I talked to “won a bid”.

 

Prima Haven leaving tomorrow.  Sold out a while ago.

 

Both ships sailing overcapacity.

 

People want a “deal”.  I get it.

 

But, if you’re waiting for the claimed inevitable price drop because of a perceived lack of demand, good luck.  

 

I’ve sailed Haven 5x (soon to be 6x).  The time to book those cabins is early, months before final

payment.  They sell out first out of all cabin types.  If you see a Haven fare you like, book it.  Waiting for a price drop on Haven cabins, that very rarely happen, will frustrate the dickens out of you. Bidding on one. at least in the last couple of years, unless you bid full price, will leave you disappointed. 

 

 

 

Exactly.  I have not seen a price drop on a Haven cabin since 2013.  I remember cause it happened to me and can you believe NCL gave me OBC for it.  Amazing to think of that today.   I recently booked Aqua Haven 2.5 years in advance.  Those prices are going to go through the roof once Aqua debuts.

On another note, I always wonder how many of these winning bids are far above what everyone else paid when they booked in the same category of Haven on that ship.  NCL will never tell us but I bet they are getting far more money than the cabin is worth.  Any type of auction makes people get carried away.