Star Princess Fire Does Not Make Sense

[Mark]

I had to shake my head when I read that the latest headlines that a passenger's cigarette was the cause of the major fire on Star Princess. Let's look at some of the issues:

 

• Star is a new ship and as such is equipped with the latest technology for fire detection and fire supression
  
• Star cabin are all equipped with sprinklers which would have drenched everything and everyone in the cabin and put the fire out
  
• Modern cabins and furnishings are designed to be fire retardent if not fire proof such as the cabin door
  
• Within minutes of detection, the ship's fire fighting team should have been on site to control or extinguish a fire
  
• The idea of a massive fire being started on a balcony by a passenger and spreading as this one did is crazy. What materials are on your baclony to suppor such a fire from a cigarette? A couple of plastic chairs and a little round table? Even if they did start to burn, damage would have been limited to the cabin in question.

Therefore, I think we will find one or more of the following when the investigation is completed and the facts are released:

 

• Fire Detection System and or Fire Surpression System (sprinklers) was either defective or turned off
  
• Fire Fighting team was incompetent, poorly trained or equipped
  
• Design Flaw in this ship and sister ships that relates to materials used to build the balconies...aluminum as opposed to steel...aluminum will burn as we all saw during the Falkland war with the Royal Navy
  
• Defective or poorly designed electrical system(s) on the network of balconies that may have created an electrical fire on all the balconies.

In any case, when the report comes out, there will be peoples' heads on the block and it will not be a passenger with a cigarette. I am also sure that Princess will lose a lot of money on this fire from bookings, lawsuits and eventual repairs. I can't wait to read the Coast Guard's Report!

[zackiedawg]

Well...I won't bother to retype the whole thing, but here's a copy of my post to another thread - just one of the possibilities of how this might have happened:

 

The balconies on most of the ships do have the rubberized matting, which may be a petrolium-based plastic or rubber material...possibly recycled from tires. Some ships also have the teak decking, treated potentially with resins which would be accelerants if caught on fire. Deck chairs are made of plastic...again, probably a plastic resin with flammable material. The tabletops of the patio tables are either plastic or sometimes a fiberglass top on metal frame - fiberglass is also flammable due to the compounds which bind the fibers. And finally, the balcony dividers between the cabins are usually plastic.

 

None of these things is flammable to the extent that they would light on fire from a cigarette sitting on them - they would require a hotter fire than that to get burning. But once they are burning, they would burn with very high intensity and speed, and when plastics burn, they melt, while remaining flammable. This would allow the molten and flaming resins and plastics to travel down the gutters to other cabins and drip to cabin balconies below, while flames from the fire would lick the balconies above likely igniting the dividers and then the furniture on each successive level.

 

Forward motion of the ship would definately allow an intense and hot fire to travel rearward quickly. And the moisture that gathers on deck is first of all not as heavy on upper decks and also laden with high salt content, which more quickly evaporates the moisture content and dries it out more quickly offering less resistance to a fire.

 

Now, as for the cigarette theory: it could be a cigarette, or something else such as electrical fire or arson. But a cigarette alone could not likely trigger the heat necessary to ignite the plastics and resins on the balcony. So a possibility would be the presence of towels, robes, or other items left on a balcony with flammable properties, and cloth materials which have a lower flashpoint. If a cigarette had time to sit on a robe left on a chair, and that robe were to ignite - the cloth and polyester materials in the robe or towel would burn probably hot enough to ignite a plastic resin chair. That plastic resin chair would melt down into a flammable plastic liquid, which would spread over much of the blue decking material...itself likely a flammable rubber compound (though with a very high flame resistance). The heat from a plastic fire would be intense, and possibly ignite the decking material, especially helped by the wind breathing the fire from the ship's forward movement. This would push the flames back towards the plastic or fiberglass resin dividers, and ignite them. The fire could travel very quickly with wind pushing it, flames reaching quite high and the heat from a plastic/resin fire being extremely hot. And the liquid flammable residue would likely flow down towards the rear of the ship and down to the next deck.

 

With the fire on the balconies, the sprinkler systems in the cabins were likely not triggered - in fact many balconies from the ship were likely engulfed with no damage inside the cabins for quite some time. This is why, despite the breadth of the fire and the speed, so few people were injured or killed. A fire spreading on the inside of the cabins would have triggered sprinklers much sooner, AND would have caused much more extensive smoke in the inner halls and other cabins, with a much higher fatality rate.

 

Near the initial source, and the center of the plastic/resin fire, the heat would probably be sufficient to warp aluminum, but not likely steel. Note that the upper deck, with the glass windows at poolside, appear to have some flame damage and lots of smoke damage, but appear to have resisted the warping prevalent on the lower passenger balconies. Possibly this part of the upper deck, being an overhanging passenger deck, may have been steel.

 

In putting the fire out - this would have been very tough to fight. Accessing it from inside the cabins being affected would be very tough...any opening of balcony doors would result in sucking the fire into the ship - ever open a balcony door when your cabin door is open!? Approaching from above, as mentioned, would be close to impossible with the smoke and heat. From below was certainly feasable, but on the protruding decks below it would have been treacherous with falling debris, cinders, and possibly burning and melting resins. Lowering the lifeboats may have been more to save them from being damaged than to evacuate passengers - the lifeboats were just below where the fire was raging. And several of the lifeboats on these ships usually have firefighting capabilities - with fireboat-style suction hoses and pumps which can blast seawater. Likely these were lowered and used to help put out the fire using seawater, from a safe location just off the port side.

[mafig]

Interesting observation about the lowering of the lifeboats.

 

 

I was going to post how from the pictures I have seen that the fire came very close to burning the lifeboats.:eek:

[snorkel rick]

What materials are on your baclony to suppor such a fire from a cigarette?

 

Mark, on this very board I have read of people dragging bed mattresses out onto balconies to sleep outside, so, flammable materials out on a balcony are not beyond the realm of possibility...

[ojaidenny]

The dividers between the balconies are plastic with aluminum casings. Once one of these gets started, with the wind from the moving ship, without a sprinkler system on the balconies, this should have taken out the entire side of the ship. The firefighting crews did a wonderful job of getting the fire stopped where it did.

[cloveygrl]

Heck people are such idiots someone could have started a bonfire on their balconly for all we know. The fact is it did happen so it does make sense. I'm sure once the cause is found out it will be remedied on all cruise ships ASAP. No company wants to deal with this kind of $$ damage $$ lawsuits $$ bad press.

[smeyer418]

I had to shake my head when I read that the latest headlines that a passenger's cigarette was the cause of the major fire on Star Princess. Let's look at some of the issues:

 

• Star is a new ship and as such is equipped with the latest technology for fire detection and fire supression
  
• Star cabin are all equipped with sprinklers which would have drenched everything and everyone in the cabin and put the fire out
  
• Modern cabins and furnishings are designed to be fire retardent if not fire proof such as the cabin door
  
• Within minutes of detection, the ship's fire fighting team should have been on site to control or extinguish a fire
  
• The idea of a massive fire being started on a balcony by a passenger and spreading as this one did is crazy. What materials are on your baclony to suppor such a fire from a cigarette? A couple of plastic chairs and a little round table? Even if they did start to burn, damage would have been limited to the cabin in question.

Therefore, I think we will find one or more of the following when the investigation is completed and the facts are released:

 

• Fire Detection System and or Fire Surpression System (sprinklers) was either defective or turned off
  
• Fire Fighting team was incompetent, poorly trained or equipped
  
• Design Flaw in this ship and sister ships that relates to materials used to build the balconies...aluminum as opposed to steel...aluminum will burn as we all saw during the Falkland war with the Royal Navy
  
• Defective or poorly designed electrical system(s) on the network of balconies that may have created an electrical fire on all the balconies.

In any case, when the report comes out, there will be peoples' heads on the block and it will not be a passenger with a cigarette. I am also sure that Princess will lose a lot of money on this fire from bookings, lawsuits and eventual repairs. I can't wait to read the Coast Guard's Report!

Why not await a report? There is always more to it than one thing. Why already start blaming the crew? Defective design? There are always trade off's. Steel throughout the ship would make it top heavy and unstable. The fire may have started on a balcony to begin with and the balcony is neither sprinklered nor alarmed. Its considered an outside deck. Yes this may cause changes...just as the Titanic sinking caused changes. Thank goodness and the crew that there was only one death.

[Host Caroline]

I totally agree.. speculation is just that... I do believe Princess will be forthcoming when they have some answers.....and I also agree the crew is to be commended.. just look at those pictures.. It's amazing there were not more injuries...

[CMVAC]

This may have been mentioned already so I apologize in advance... However, it looks like the Caribe, Baja and Aloha deck are damaged with only one or two balconies on Dolphin looking charred. In the center of the fire damaged spot on the Caribe deck are the Penthouse Suites. They are also directly above the only balconies damaged on Dolphin. Those suites all have teak chairs, loungers and tables. I don't know if a cigarette or cigar could light up one of those tables or chairs but it would seem to be easier than lighting the plastic on the surrounding cabins. Additionally we have been in those rooms and been guilty of leaving our wet towels out on the table and chairs to dry.

[Vippie]

I was on the Caribbean Princess March 4-11. We had a next-to-the-last aft cabin on the port side, Caribe deck. When we boarded, there was a "wet paint" sign on our wooden railing which had just been varnished. Throughout the week, crew were varnishing railings all over the ship.

 

One evening when I was on my balcony, I could see the balcony below and to my left, and there was a can of varnish sitting on the balcony. I remember thinking that that cabin must be vacant, they wouldn't leave the varnish there.

 

It's possible a flying cigarette landed near a similar accelerant on the Star...

[Jason's Storm]

If a careless smoker can burn down their house, why is it so hard to believe they can't burn out their cabin (and others).

 

~JS

[Coolmama_1]

If a careless smoker can burn down their house' date=' why is it so hard to believe they can't burn out their cabin (and others).

 

~JS[/quote']

 

very true! You see apartments complexes go up in smoke all the time. It was also the middle of the night, so a cigarette could easily have landed on something and ignited. Only time will tell when the details are released.

In the meantime, prayers and concern go out to all whose vacations have been so traumatic!

[swan705ca]

I hope someone from Princess Cruise line monitors this board

My family just came of The Princess Starr on Sunday before it left on this cruise that had the terrible fire. We had a great time on this beautiful ship except for the concerns listed below. We have cruised on The Golden, The Grand and The Caribbean Princess and thought Princess was the only way to cruise….. Read On.

I had two problems on this cruise which I will try to explain.

I have a medical condition that makes cigarette smoke something I have to avoid.

On our departure day I had to move from my chair on the so called non smoking side of the ship five times because of passengers sitting beside me and then proceeding to smoke a cigarette, and again this was supposed to be on the ‘non-smoking’ side of the deck. Every time you walk by the Explorer lounge all you could smell was cigarette smoke and this area was also supposed to be non smoking.

I also had another concern regarding the removal of all relaxing deck chairs on cabin balconies (I was in BA category on the Lido deck). This was to conform to the new policy from Princess to use 2 bistro type chairs and a small table. Forget about being comfortable on a 12” diameter seat and don’t even try to lean back, those chairs were dangerous. This is why I have a balcony so I could control my seating surroundings by sitting on my balcony. Well Princess decided that balconies were not there so passengers can relax on them, question…….why have a balcony?

I finally had enough of smoke and moving my location so I went to the purser’s office and in the space of 30 minutes I got five different smoking policies from members of the purser’s staff and the Captains Circle desk. I asked to speak to a higher authority regarding the chairs and was told to put my concerns in writing and they would forward them to head office, I said that this was not acceptable and I wanted to talk to someone in authority and I would even talk to the Captain (who for the first time on any previous five princess cruises could be seen walking the decks, nice personal touch on the Captains part). I was told that I can talk to who ever I want but nothing will change; again I got the new ‘policy’ from head office spiel again.

I finally got to talk to (on the telephone, never in person) the customer relations ‘manager’ by the name of Janet. I was informed that I had already been told nothing could be done about the new policy on furniture on balconies, only suites had reclining chairs but she would pass on my concerns to head office. Strange that the cabins on Caribe deck which were the same BA and some were lower BB category all had relining chairs and visible from our BA cabin on Lido. The number of communications I had with her was always by telephone or messages left on the telephone, I wanted to meet with Janet but when I was told to go to the Pursers office to meet her she was always busy some where else.

Them we got on to the complete disregard of smoking policies on the ship. I was informed that all the lounges and eating areas were nom-smoking including the areas with table and chair eating are at both pools on one side of the ship but the signs could not be seen or could be moved from the tables. On a positive note they did put up new “non smoking” signs in those areas which really helped; at least I could enjoy my lunch on the open deck. That is until I politely pointed the signs out to a group of smokers and was told not so politely to go ****-**.

After that incident I informed an officer when it happened again. I did not look for smokers but when I am sitting down reading or eating and they sit beside me then I took action. I always found an officer as I did not think it was fair to have the deck or bar attendant confront the smoking passengers.

Unfortunately they did not post any signs on the other outside decks regarding smoking or non smoking, so how can you enforce a policy if you don’t post it or even inform the passengers that there is one. During my one week cruise I observed at least six passengers throw cigarette butts over the side,

To end this long report I suggested that they revert back to posting in the ‘Princess Patter” about the smoking and non smoking sides of the ship and the danger of throwing lit cigarette butts over the side. In the past these points were always listed everyday. An informed passenger has no excuse to ignore posted policies.

It is hard to educate people if you don’t tell them.

[lcpagejr]

I was on the Sapphire over Thanksgiving and had a Lido balcony cabin. To be honest those balconys were so small I don't think a lunge chair would fit properly and allow everyone to move around and/or the placing of a 2nd chair away from the door. The balconys on the Caribe are extended which make sense for a lounge chair. Sailoing on the Carribean Princess the week of 4/8 and have an extended balcony...I will be interested to see the difference.

[tejmar]

The problem with cigarettes is that they continue to burn even when unattended. Most cigarette fires occur when they fall onto cushions or mattresses. When this happens the cushions don't immedialtely burst into flame. Usually the cigaretts smolder in the cushion and depending on the material, when the cushion finally does begin flaming the temperature can be very intense at which point the air becomes super heated. The super heated air in turn ignites any combustibles in the vicinity. Trailers (which are probably similar in materials to the cabins) can become completely ingulfed in flame within seconds of a synthetic cushion igniting. That's why it's difficult to get out of a house or especially a trailer once the fire gets going and why cigarettes are the number one cause of fire.

[fireboat]

Was on my first cruise a couple of weeks ago. Heard the announcement for the crew's fire drill. I thought that would be cool to witness. A side-effect of being a volunteer firefighter for 25 years.

All the PAX were expected to run to their muster station. It was the crew who were given an air pack, a mask, a helmet, gloves, and maybe boots and told to go put the fire out. If it was hot enough to melt aluminum, imagine the heat being retained by the steel of the ship. And we all know how much room are in those staterooms. Now add a couple of guys in airpacks and a hose. Don't blame the crew. They made an excellent stop.

The question is not how fast and well the crew reacted but how much of a head start the fire had. 3 am in the morning. All the partier have stumble off to bed and it's still earlier for the work-out types.

 

Hat's off to the crew.

[bdjam]

During my one week cruise I observed at least six passengers throw cigarette butts over the side,

 

 

To end this long report I suggested that they revert back to posting in the ‘Princess Patter” about the smoking and non smoking sides of the ship and the danger of throwing lit cigarette butts over the side. In the past these points were always listed everyday. An informed passenger has no excuse to ignore posted policies.

 

 

It is hard to educate people if you don’t tell them.

I don’t know about Star Princess now, but all of my Princess cruises (including my cruise on Star Princess a few years ago) included periodic reminders in the Patter about smoking policies. I also believe that throwing things over the side is mentioned in muster drills. What's difficult is to try to educate people by providing written or spoken presentations that they either do not read or do not listen to. As for reclining lounge chairs, what does that have to do with anything?

[swan705ca]

Thank you for quoting me in your post, however you will notice that I have cruised with Princess before and I did state that they USED to note every day in the Princess Patter about the smoking/non smoking areas on deck. I was on The Caribbean Princess in March, on The Golden in August and now The Star last week. I don't remember any notice about smoking in the Princess Patter and I just checked my one weeks collection of the Patter from last week and ther is NO mention of the locations of smoking/non smoking areas.

 

So I say again, how can you educate if you don't inform.

 

Also during the muster drill you have a lot of information to take in about lifeboat drill etc. I feel that mentioning the smoking/non smoking area and safety in disposing of cigarettes can never be mentioned enough especially when you have a news medium like the Princess Patter to reinforce the importance of smoking safely on a ship.

 

The reclining chair issue was only mentioned because of my own personal circumstances and if you had read my post completly you would have realised that both issues were related.

 

I am not against people smoking, but not in my non smoking desingtated area.

[Hello-Kitty]

Swan,

i was on the star last week and i read the patter everyday and i did see the smoking regulations noted daily.

Being on the trip w/ a smoker i was very aware of the poilcy and so were they and were very curtious

 

I am curious to why you go anywhere if you have such a condition??

What did people do years ago when smoking wasnt an issue?? Did they not have these conditions like you,then? Or is it now people are so aware of health and smoking people play up to the no smoking rule now?? I am just curious not trying to pick on anyone.

[karenscruises]

Do ya'll remember when Carnival's Paradise was the only smoke free ship? It was absolutely beautiful--guess it still is but haven't seen it in over 7 yrs. The first year or so it was a sold out ship virtually every sailing. Then it was changed to open smoking as all others are and repositioned to CA. I guess now it's a sold ship as well. Other than remembering what a pretty ship this was, I have no reason to mention it but I will say one thing in defense for the smoker I am in most contact with -- my husband.

 

He has smoked for 30+ years. We often go hiking in the Smokey Mtns. and my husband ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, puts the cigarette butts back into his pack after he smokes a cigarette. When we're on the beach for our family vacation he will put his cigarette out and then carry the butts to the trash can. When we went on our 1st cruise in November, he was very much aware of where the smoking areas were and went out of his way to walk over to an ashtray to put the butt out. He did smoke in our cabin (:( hate the smell) but he had an empty Coke bottle w/water in it and would put the butt in it. Nasty habit as it is, I think he is pretty good at being considerate of others. I can honestly say he never smoked in an area that was designated no smoking. I can't imagine someone flicking a butt over the edge of the ship but I'm sure it happens fairly often.

Regardless of how this happened, we need to remember the family that lost their loved one and pray for a quick recovery of those injured.

 

Karen

[bdjam]

Thank you for quoting me in your post, however you will notice that I have cruised with Princess before and I did state that they USED to note every day in the Princess Patter about the smoking/non smoking areas on deck. I was on The Caribbean Princess in March, on The Golden in August and now The Star last week. I don't remember any notice about smoking in the Princess Patter and I just checked my one weeks collection of the Patter from last week and ther is NO mention of the locations of smoking/non smoking areas.

My last cruise was on Dawn Princess in December and the smoking regulations were posted in the Patter on the first day and then periodically throughout the cruise.

[swan705ca]

Regarding your quote:

"Swan,

i was on the star last week and i read the patter everyday and i did see the smoking regulations noted daily"

 

Please get your facts straight. I have gone through every Princess Patter from last week's cruise and the only mention of a smoking rule was while you were on the tenders and on Suday's Patter they listed that there was no smoking in the Vista Lounge during the movie Pride and Prejudice. I don't know what you were reading when you state that the smoking regulations were noted daily.

 

Are you sure you were on The Star Princess.!!!!!!!

 

It wasn't until monday morning that new no smoking signs were placed on the walls outside the Horizen court and the ashtrays were moved to the other side of the ship (the smoking side).

 

I also take offence to your comment about "why I go anywhere with my condition". Do you suggest I stay at home wrapped in a blanket and never leave my house.

 

I have a brain stem lession and every morning I get out of bed and thank the lord for another day that I can spend with my family. I have a young family and try to lead a normal life as possible for them, every day is a challenge but life would be dull without daily challenges.

I can control my condition with medication but cigarette smoke is one of the triggers that can cause a reaction. I stay away from smoking areas but the smokers do not repect my rights and my space in the designated non-smoking areas. I keep out of the smokers way but have every tried to go through a shopping mall door entrance lately.

I wear a Medical alert picture ID tag arround my neck at all times, most people are very understanding when I explain from a distance about my problem with smoke and they willingly move out of the way. Have you ever celebrated your childs birthday witout candles on her cake. I have, I live with it daily and make the best of the functions I still have.

 

So PLEASE do not make comments about what I do with my life 'with my condition'. Your attitude just took us back to the 1800's, when they locked them away and solved the problem.

 

Everybody has rights, smokers included, but when I follow the smoking rules by staying away from there area, all I ask is that you respect mine.

 

As for cruising I have been on 23 over the past years and will be sailing on the Celebrity Constellation out of New York to France and England in 5 weeks. I expect problems and chalenges with "my condition" but we will have a good time begause we keep an open mind and try to overcome the obstacles that I face every day.

 

I will not let "My condition" hinder my freedom to travel.

[kryos]

If a careless smoker can burn down their house' date=' why is it so hard to believe they can't burn out their cabin (and others).

[/quote']

Because their house is probably not furnished with fire-retardant furniture and fixtures, nor is it equipped with a sprinkler system. Many homes today do not have working smoke detectors, let alone sprinklers.

 

A ship is supposed to be designed to a much higher standard when it comes to fire suppression ... and prevention.

 

So that's why it is entirely possible for a careless smoker to burn down their house, but not likely to set a massive fire on a cruise ship with their cigarette.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Cuizer2]

I had to shake my head when I read that the latest headlines that a passenger's cigarette was the cause of the major fire on Star Princess. Let's look at some of the issues:

• Star is a new ship and as such is equipped with the latest technology for fire detection and fire supression
  
• Star cabin are all equipped with sprinklers which would have drenched everything and everyone in the cabin and put the fire out
  
• Modern cabins and furnishings are designed to be fire retardent if not fire proof such as the cabin door
  
• Within minutes of detection, the ship's fire fighting team should have been on site to control or extinguish a fire
  
• The idea of a massive fire being started on a balcony by a passenger and spreading as this one did is crazy. What materials are on your baclony to suppor such a fire from a cigarette? A couple of plastic chairs and a little round table? Even if they did start to burn, damage would have been limited to the cabin in question.

Therefore, I think we will find one or more of the following when the investigation is completed and the facts are released:

• Fire Detection System and or Fire Surpression System (sprinklers) was either defective or turned off
  
• Fire Fighting team was incompetent, poorly trained or equipped
  
• Design Flaw in this ship and sister ships that relates to materials used to build the balconies...aluminum as opposed to steel...aluminum will burn as we all saw during the Falkland war with the Royal Navy
  
• Defective or poorly designed electrical system(s) on the network of balconies that may have created an electrical fire on all the balconies.

In any case, when the report comes out, there will be peoples' heads on the block and it will not be a passenger with a cigarette. I am also sure that Princess will lose a lot of money on this fire from bookings, lawsuits and eventual repairs. I can't wait to read the Coast Guard's Report!

 

1) I doubt that you can "turn off" the sprinklers. It is possible they did not work, but I am sure they were on.

 

2) There is no evidence that the fire fighting team was incompetent or poorly trained.

 

3) It would not matter if the balconies were aluminum or steel. Even the open flame from a candle would not cause either to burn. Nonetheless, I am sure the ship meets all the current requirements for materials used.

 

4) It might be an electrical fire, but that still does not explain the extent of the fire. Have you considered the possibility that some accelerant was used? That would better explain the extent of the damage over any of your theories.

[Mark]

Cuizer,

 

Thanks for your input...I noticed that someone on another board had been on a Princess ship where maintenance workers had left an open can of varnish on the balcony of an empty cabin...suppose this happended on the Star and someone's cigarette butt got into it...suppose there were more than one can of varnish on the baclony. Another thing, I noticed a lot more people cruise now with oxygen canisters! Although I understand the need, the thought of the cabin next to mine being loaded with oxygen canisters is a scary one for me...supposing they decided to store the canisters on the balcony...who would be at fault if this contributed to the fire? The passenger or the cruise line?

 

I know how accelerants can make a bad fire worse...back in the 90's I was on the NCL Sea and we had a terrible fire while at sea. It started in the laundry room when someone was negligent in cleaning the dryer's filter. The fire spread to the photographer's lab next door and the chemicals in the lab acted as an accelerant. The sea had no laundry facilities until it was scheduled for dry dock since portions of the bulkhead had to be removed to remove and install new laundry facilities. Besides the point of the accelerants from the lab, the other point is that the Captain, the crew and the passengers all knew what caused the fire and what made it as bad as it was and the information was made public in a very short time. The NCL fire team did an outstanding job in a very difficult situation and fortunately there were no fatalities.

 

If we knew so much about the fire so quickly on the SEA, why is it taking so long to publish initial findings on the Princess fire?