AVOID Park West Galleries Auction at Sea

[insulationbabe]

We also have attended Park Wests Auctions and quite enjoy them - we have lots of artwork and have no intention on ever selling them - we love to get the artwork - I do most of the framing - so it keeps the costs down - granted Park West does a much nicer job - but mine look pretty darn good as well

We had an issue with them last month and it also involved Royal - so after calling Royal - they settled the issue for us and refunded (small amount) the money and we are very happy with it

Sometimes the people running the auction on the ship are new and have very little idea what they are doing - but we are "experts" now so we can tell right off the bat if we are getting scammed or not.

We too purchase artwork because we absolutely love it and not worry about selling it and making money:)

[andrzej5914]

Oh I understand, I was just making and example out of your post. But you hit the nail on the head about people assuming "it must be better" because it's whole foods.

 

People also assume "it must be true" because it's backed by and on a RCC cruise. That is exactly the problem why many let down their guard. Also, with the cost of the internet, very few do their research when on board. They just assume . . .

 

and back to my original point. Is it any different for Whole Foods top market themselves under a certain concept and fool people to believe they are the better product or Park West selling the idea that the art is an investment and you're getting a better deal, etc...???

 

Both are marketing geniuses, but at the end it's still "buyer's beware". I'm sorry but I like to believe that we're all adults, we know what we're doing and I'm THE ONLY ONE that's responsible if I fell for any deceptive business practices.

 

Do you answer any e-mails or phone calls from a guy in Nigeria telling you that he needs help transferring million$ to your account but only after you send him $5000 to initiate the process? Most of us don't, but believe it or not some do fall for it. Or the 3 shell game set up on the streets of New York or Chicago. or many other con games?

 

Park West or Whole Foods sells a CONCEPT, and whether you buy into in or not, it's up to you to step up to the table and buy it. NOBODY is forcing you to attend the auctions. If you do, know what you're getting into. Simple.

[andrzej5914]

Just thought of another and I believe, a better analogy.

 

Certain Swiss watch makers have the world believing that their watches are worth tens of thousand$ more than any other watch. Do you actually believe their manufacturing costs them tens of thousand$ more? or that their watches work that much better? Most of us don't, but the marketing is so brilliant, people want to be seen with one just because it makes a statement and thus end up paying the price.

 

It's all about marketing.... ;) and once again (buyer beware).

[Ocean Boy]

and back to my original point. Is it any different for Whole Foods top market themselves under a certain concept and fool people to believe they are the better product or Park West selling the idea that the art is an investment and you're getting a better deal, etc...???

 

Both are marketing geniuses, but at the end it's still "buyer's beware". I'm sorry but I like to believe that we're all adults, we know what we're doing and I'm THE ONLY ONE that's responsible if I fell for any deceptive business practices.

 

Do you answer any e-mails or phone calls from a guy in Nigeria telling you that he needs help transferring million$ to your account but only after you send him $5000 to initiate the process? Most of us don't, but believe it or not some do fall for it. Or the 3 shell game set up on the streets of New York or Chicago. or many other con games?

 

Park West or Whole Foods sells a CONCEPT, and whether you buy into in or not, it's up to you to step up to the table and buy it. NOBODY is forcing you to attend the auctions. If you do, know what you're getting into. Simple.

People like you are a lawyer's worst nightmare!:D

[Ocean Boy]

Just thought of another and I believe, a better analogy.

 

Certain Swiss watch makers have the world believing that their watches are worth tens of thousand$ more than any other watch. Do you actually believe their manufacturing costs them tens of thousand$ more? or that their watches work that much better? Most of us don't, but the marketing is so brilliant, people want to be seen with one just because it makes a statement and thus end up paying the price.

 

It's all about marketing.... ;) and once again (buyer beware).

That is why when I am down in the Caribbean I go right by all the glass cases until I get to the one that says "Citizen Watches".

[artvlay]

What I am amazed at is that people still buy prints or pictures on the ships after all the negative news pieces and hearing bad stories from other cruisers. These are not good investments by any stretch of the imagination. It is good if you like the piece and want to put it on your wall and don't care of getting a return.

[reeran]

That is why when I am down in the Caribbean I go right by all the glass cases until I get to the one that says "Citizen Watches".

 

 

 

Don't forget the Turner Bijioux for $10 on the ship!

[Ocean Boy]

Don't forget the Turner Bijioux for $10 on the ship!

 

LOL, maybe I should rethink my extravagant ways.:eek:

[reeran]

lol, maybe i should rethink my extravagant ways.:eek:

 

 

 

LOL, you just can't be too frugal!!!

[Turk]

and back to my original point. Is it any different for Whole Foods top market themselves under a certain concept and fool people to believe they are the better product or Park West selling the idea that the art is an investment and you're getting a better deal, etc...???

 

Both are marketing geniuses, but at the end it's still "buyer's beware". I'm sorry but I like to believe that we're all adults, we know what we're doing and I'm THE ONLY ONE that's responsible if I fell for any deceptive business practices.

 

Do you answer any e-mails or phone calls from a guy in Nigeria telling you that he needs help transferring million$ to your account but only after you send him $5000 to initiate the process? Most of us don't, but believe it or not some do fall for it. Or the 3 shell game set up on the streets of New York or Chicago. or many other con games?

 

Park West or Whole Foods sells a CONCEPT, and whether you buy into in or not, it's up to you to step up to the table and buy it. NOBODY is forcing you to attend the auctions. If you do, know what you're getting into. Simple.

 

I don't mean to be argumentative, but aggressive marketing of a product cannot be associated with down right fraud. Remember the marketing may be their approach to selling, but if the products, as in your case, are not "apples to apples" and they profess it to be, it is fraud. I will agree that artwork's value is a subjective point, but when a work is a downright fake as brought up in the many hundreds of cases that will be coming up in court cases soon, the perpetrators are profiting under a scam. Why do you think they are on the ships? The are not in this country (USA) and they are trying be shielded from our laws. Their guarantees are useless, as is their appraisals and authenticity. I really wanted the art I bought. I trusted both PW and RCC that it was authentic. It's value was in-material. What I bought was a fake. You might say I bought a "lemon" : )

[andrzej5914]

The are not in this country (USA) and they are trying be shielded from our laws.

 

They are. I believe they are based somewhere in Michigan, and I do get their mailings about 2-3 times a year announcing an auction at a hotel down in Naples, Florida.

 

here is their home base:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=park+west+gallery,+southfield+mi&ie=UTF8&ll=42.495137,-83.227615&spn=0.184035,0.289078&z=12&iwloc=A

[Turk]

They are. I believe they are based somewhere in Michigan, and I do get their mailings about 2-3 times a year announcing an auction at a hotel down in Naples, Florida.

 

here is their home base:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=park+west+gallery,+southfield+mi&ie=UTF8&ll=42.495137,-83.227615&spn=0.184035,0.289078&z=12&iwloc=A

 

No, I meant that the fraud is being perpetrated at sea. I know they are headquartered in Michigan. PW earnings are in the neighborhood of $700 million a year.

 

Time will tell, but it looks encouraging for those who feel they've been taken. I just read that there are no less than 6 class action suits filed to date.

[andrzej5914]

No, I meant that the fraud is being perpetrated at sea. I know they are headquartered in Michigan. PW earnings are in the neighborhood of $700 million a year.

 

Time will tell, but it looks encouraging for those who feel they've been taken. I just read that there are no less than 6 class action suits filed to date.

 

Well, they do hold auctions on land. The one in Naples, about 2-3 times a year is a good example. I'm sure that's not the only one. I just get that mailing because I'm in the vicinity.

 

Law suits are abound on a daily basis. Ask any doctor, hospital, major store chain, major transportation companies, major restaurant chains, etc. It doesn't mean anything until there is a ruling. And finally, class action lawsuits are a joke. If the company settles for few million$ just so they don't have to waste time and money to fight these things, guess who gets majority of the cash? Yes, it's the lawyers. The consumers get a $20 cert for future purchases if they meet certain requirements.

 

If you really want to punish the company, and you think you have a legit claim, take them to a small claims court YOURSELF.

[andrzej5914]

I didn't say it, but I actually believe that Class Action Lawsuits are the REAL Scams!

[Ocean Boy]

I didn't say it, but I actually believe that Class Action Lawsuits are the REAL Scams!

 

Unless you are a lawyer....

[Rancher Dave]

Unless you are a lawyer....

 

 

The lawyers do seem to come out best in these kinds of cases....often the members of the class get very little out of it.

[dougp26364]

What I am amazed at is that people still buy prints or pictures on the ships after all the negative news pieces and hearing bad stories from other cruisers. These are not good investments by any stretch of the imagination. It is good if you like the piece and want to put it on your wall and don't care of getting a return.

 

There's a lot of people who live with their heads in the sand. To be honest, when we were first time cruisers the thought that there would ever be "art" auctions at sea never passed my mind. I'm just smart enough to know you don't buy art as an investment unless you really know what you're doing. Taking the word of the person selling the piece isn't the best advice you're going to get. After all, they have something to sell.

 

Then there are those who think they're real collectors. They buy in the belief that the pieces their collecting will be worth something to their heirs and, they want to show these pieces off around their house as if they really had purchased something valuable. Either that or I'm the idiot for not realizing they were buying great works of art at discount prices.

 

Then you have people like us. We had shopped Thomas Kincaids galleries before and had a passing interest in owning a few of his lithographs. I was convinced that his prices were over inflated and the lithographs would never be worth what his galleries were charging. I also thought that they over inflated the price of the pieces by putting them in fancy frames that were likly worth more than the lithograph itself. Needless to say, we never purchased.

 

Then we found a couple of TK's lithographs at the Parkwest auction. Both cost us around $130 each. Both were considerably larger than anything we could possibly afford at a TK gallery. Both were older works and I was aware they were most likely overstocks that would never be worth anything of major value and probably not worth what little I was paying for them. Still, we purchased two Kincaid lithographs for less than $300. I had them framed once we were home for about another $300. All told it was less than what we had looked at if we had purchased direct from one of the Thomas Kincaid galleries and, it's something we're happy with haning over our fireplaces.

 

There are times when Parkwest auctions can work for people despite their reputation. But we were buying for asthetics and not as an investment. Unless of course you count improving the looks of your home as an investment.

[Charles4515]

 

Park West or Whole Foods sells a CONCEPT, and whether you buy into in or not, it's up to you to step up to the table and buy it. NOBODY is forcing you to attend the auctions. If you do, know what you're getting into. Simple.

 

I don't know what your bone is with Whole Foods but there is no analogy at all. Whole Foods is a premium category of supermarket. Some people think it is worth the extra price and shop there and others don't. And it is pretty easy to avoid a Whole Foods market. What they sell is a step up from the standard supermarket. Park West sells a facsimile of art not the real thing. Because of that to sell it they have to hook those who are uneducated on art. That is why they have auctions, give away champagne and plaster the public areas with their stuff. They con people who don't know better to purchase.

[andrzej5914]

I don't know what your bone is with Whole Foods but there is no analogy at all. Whole Foods is a premium category of supermarket. Some people think it is worth the extra price and shop there and others don't. And it is pretty easy to avoid a Whole Foods market. What they sell is a step up from the standard supermarket. Park West sells a facsimile of art not the real thing. Because of that to sell it they have to hook those who are uneducated on art. That is why they have auctions, give away champagne and plaster the public areas with their stuff. They con people who don't know better to purchase.

 

Which part of my earlier post did you miss?

 

When Whole Foods opened a store just blocks away from our condo, we were elated. The excitement went away very quickly when we found the same fruits and veggies (by labels) that we bought at Publix, only at twice the price. Does that mean they are ripping off people? We could debate that all day long, but at the end, it comes down under "buyer beware". We still shop there on occasion but I'm not buying into their "natural, organic foods" hype any more. It's their business plan and many people buy into it, and they are allowed to operate.

[emttl73]

I have purchased quite a few pieces from the auctions at sea and at the gallery in Michigan. I've been to a few auctions near Cleveland too. If you know what you are looking for you can find good deals. I love all my pieces and loved the service I have gotten from Park West. I am sorry so many people had a bed expereince.

[ezi-amy]

Guys, Guys... Park west sell art at a very reasonable price and you can get a bargain if you know what you are doing.

HOWEVER: They also mislead you and lie to you, they show you signed in plate (posters) and try to pass them on as limited edition. They try to sell a Rembrandt for $17,000 what they don't tell you is that they were printed a couple of years ago from the original plates and are only worth $200.

 

What they do has nothing to do with selling art with overinflated prices

If you go to Tiffany in New York City you expect to pay top dollar for top of the line merchandise. What you don't expect is that they show you a beautiful almost flawless diamond in a platinum setting and when you buy it they insist on mailing it to you, you don't expect them to send you is a diamond that looks exactly like the one you bought with many flaws in a silver setting.

That is exactly what park west is doing over and over again, they show you a regular edition print and you pay what it is worth but what they send you is the same image but an AP, PP or HC edition much less valuable than what they showed you at the auction. They are counting on the idea that most people don't know any better.

 

Overpaying for a watch, fruit or if o buy a TV and find it cheaper somewhere else that is OK because you weren't mislead you just paid a little more for something you wanted as long long as you weren't lied to.

 

You can not blame the people that were taken by park west you can only blame park west. You can not blame the person that got mugged (even if he was in a bad neighborhood) you have to blame the mugger.

[Charles4515]

You can not blame the people that were taken by park west you can only blame park west. You can not blame the person that got mugged (even if he was in a bad neighborhood) you have to blame the mugger.

 

I think people have some responsibility for getting suckered by Park West but most of the blame is on Park West. And the cruise line deserves blame for allowing it.

[Charles4515]

Which part of my earlier post did you miss?

 

When Whole Foods opened a store just blocks away from our condo, we were elated. The excitement went away very quickly when we found the same fruits and veggies (by labels) that we bought at Publix, only at twice the price. Does that mean they are ripping off people? We could debate that all day long, but at the end, it comes down under "buyer beware". We still shop there on occasion but I'm not buying into their "natural, organic foods" hype any more. It's their business plan and many people buy into it, and they are allowed to operate.

 

There is no analogy. Park West sells a facsimile of art. And suckers people to buy with various methods. Whole Foods does sell natural and organic. Some people want that and will pay more for it. It is another question as to whether natural and organic is hype. They are not ripping off people. They would be ripping off people if the food they said was natural and organic was not natural and organic. We have two Whole Foods markets around here which I don't shop at normally at and I have never received a mailing from them or seen an ad in the local papers. On many ships Park West is in your face in public areas and flyers are delivered to my cabin almost every day.

[andrzej5914]

There is no analogy. Park West sells a facsimile of art. And suckers people to buy with various methods. Whole Foods does sell natural and organic. Some people want that and will pay more for it. It is another question as to whether natural and organic is hype. They are not ripping off people. They would be ripping off people if the food they said was natural and organic was not natural and organic. We have two Whole Foods markets around here which I don't shop at normally at and I have never received a mailing from them or seen an ad in the local papers. On many ships Park West is in your face in public areas and flyers are delivered to my cabin almost every day.

 

They are selling the same veggies and fruits that I can purchase at Publix for almost double of their prices. Same producer, same labels. Yet many people don't realize it and buy into their concept, and thus spend much more money for a product because they assume that it must be better, natural and/or organic. I'm not saying they mislabel, they don't, they tell you exactly what you're buying, but at the same time, they depend on their "concept" to fool people into thinking that it's a better product and charge accordingly.

 

Sorry, that you have a hard time seeing the analogy.

[dougp26364]

I have purchased quite a few pieces from the auctions at sea and at the gallery in Michigan. I've been to a few auctions near Cleveland too. If you know what you are looking for you can find good deals. I love all my pieces and loved the service I have gotten from Park West. I am sorry so many people had a bed expereince.

 

The bad experience comes from the impulse buyers who are led to believe they're buying an investment or, at the very least, something of appreciable value that will continue to grow in value as time goes on. They think their buying an heirloom or an investment.

 

The problem is, IMHO, they're at least as much to blame as Park West. Who in their right mind buys art as an impulse buy when you're on a cruise vacation? My bet is that it's not the majority but a very vocal minority that don't like the idea that they can be had so easily.