Freestyle catching on? - Holland America Line Introduces As You Wish Dining

[Droopy_Sails]

[quote name='travage']I don't think I was too off base, but to clarify I was more or less refering to the days when cruising was really only available to people who knew how to tip and for whom this was a part of everyday life. Of course there are always excpetions and obviously automatic gratuity was neccesitated by cruise lines attracting a crowd that was not used to this. Before you call me a snob, its just a fact-the crowd that cruises today is not the crowd that cruised even a decade ago. I'm glad to see that so many people have this opportunity now, and do believe that for some lines automatic tipping is a neccesity.[/QUOTE]

Yes, HAL and Celebrity among them. You're sadly mistaken if you believe that non-tippers or poor tippers are a result of cruise lines opening their doors to the Great Unwashed--but it does give us a lot of insight into your own perspectives and motivations.

It's an interesting thing about people who bemoan the lost days of cruising, the golden days when most people couldn't afford it. People who cruised in the old days but were real travelers--who traveled off cruise ships as well as on them, and joyfully and adaptably encountered all sorts of experiences and people in their travels--seem to take in stride the changes in today's cruising. People whose travel experience is mostly limited to the artificial world of a cruise ship, however, often seem to have trouble letting go of their beloved onboard class system...have trouble with change in general, really.

You can usually spot a traveler as opposed to a cruiser--the former is rarely elitist and narrowminded; the latter unfortunately often is.

[halos]

[quote name='hotspur']You should learn to comprehend what you read. I said "there's no accounting for taste." That means that your taste may differ from mine. I didn't say yours was wrong. You inferred that. Not my problem.

But I do in fact wonder how someone can in fact prefer being told when, where, and with whom they MUST eat...and what they MUST wear while eating. While on vacation. For which they're paying good money.

And I'd love to read your justification for why it's OK to wear a shirt and slacks one night in a dining room but on the next night in order to be let in to that same room you must be in a suit or tuxedo. Sorry, pal, but that IS simply "absurd" to me. Go ahead. Try.[/QUOTE]

If I misread your post I apologize. I'm still wondering why you're emitting 'anger' on a topic that is basically about individual tastes?? :confused:
I don't have to justify why I like traditional dining, I just like it. Try to justify why you like something.
Taste can't be justified.
Chill out for goodness sake. Life's too short.

[halos]

[quote name='hotspur'] It is the artificial phoniness of that inconsistency that makes no sense to me, and that puts me off. Try to explain that. Really. Try. Try to explain to me why it's a good thing to be told when you must eat EVERY NIGHT while on vacation. Go ahead. Try. Try to tell me why it's a good thing to be told with whom you must dine for 15 days--like them or not. I really want to see what you have to say about these absurdities.

[/QUOTE]

I don't get it.
Why does anyone have to explain WHY???
We just don't mind getting dressed and being someplace at a certain time. You're insinuating that this is 'wrong'.
Just because we enjoy something you don't, doesn't make it wrong. And again, why are you so pissed off?? :confused:

I'm trying Freestyle for the first time. I expect to enjoy it...I don't know if I'll enjoy it more or less than traditional. I like the idea that I have a choice. One day I may want to cruise traditional and another time I may want to book freestyle. I like the idea of BOTH.
Variety is the spice of life. Why does it have to be one or the other??

[hazeleyez3]

[quote name='hotspur']Great. Then sail other cruise lines and leave us alone.[/quote]

I'm sorry.. maybe I inferred this to be a "snide" comment, and not a recommendation.


[quote name='hazeleyez3']Ok, my thought is that 1) since you made a snide comment to my first post, and 2) chose to stress "despise" (which I used in my 1st post) your comment was targeted at me (and possibly those like me).

So... let me just respond by saying:

1.) I never said they [COLOR=red](meaning HAL)[/COLOR] shouldn't do as you wish dining...I said as long as they keep traditional as an option.

2.) I am not miserable when dining in land-based restaurants. I have different expectations for these restaurants than I do a cruise ship. There is also more flexibility for me with land-based restaurants (when not traveling). For example, we decide to do a dinner and movie. We have a longer wait for dinner and run late, well we can drive over to a different theater 10 min away, and catch a later showing of the same movie. Can't do that on a cruiseship all the time.

3.) For non-NCL(A) lines: You do not have to sit with strangers...you can get a table for 2 if you wish.

4.) Part of the cruising experience for me is to have 1 set dining room, 1 set of waiters, 1 set table, etc etc. If I wanted to have the same experiences that I do with land-based restaurants, I'd take a land-based vacation.

5.) As noted earlier, due to the cost of Hawaii, and the itinerary offered I was willing to settle for the freestyle experience on NCLA for our honeymoon. The two previous NCL cruises were for family reunions, and therefore not my choice.

6.) Same point as #1. I understand that there are people that like the freestyle experience on cruises, and I am not saying they should do away with it. I am simply saying that I don't want the traditional dining to be eliminated.[/quote]

[quote name='hotspur']You said you "despise" freestyle dining, an absurdly over-the-top statement. Despise means "to hold in contempt" or "to scorn."

Just go to dinner early enough to make sure you'll make the show. I've spent nearly 60 nights on NCL freestyle ships and never waited to go to dinner in a main dining room. In fact, the only times I've been late for a show were on traditional dining ships, where you have to wait for everyone in the dining room to move in lockstep from course to course. You're describing a problem that doesn't exist on NCL, in my experience.


As someone has already pointed out: You can request this but there is no guarantee you'll get it. On the one HAL ship we sailed there were few tables for two in the main dining room. Also, as someone else has pointed out, you may request "early" or "late" seating, but there is no guarantee you'll get what you want, especially if you book late. You may "despise" freestyle, but I dislike being told by someone else when I must eat...especially when I'm on vacation. On land or at sea.


Fine. Then take my recommendation and don't cruise NCL. Easy solution. Nothing "snide" about it.


Sounds like you knew what you were getting into with freestyle, so why complain?


No, that's not what you said. You said you "despised" freestyle.[/quote]

Yes, I realize what I said, I realize what it means, and I realize that the point was to say as long as[B][U] HAL[/U][/B] (which is what the post was about -- not NCL) keeps traditional.

I have never encountered a problem with my seating times and table sizes on other cruise lines.

Again, wasn't complaining. The 1st post was in response to HAL - since it was talking about that cruise lines.

Just as you responded to that 1st comment, so did others... asking questions...which I guess the responses you inferred to be "complaining"

[hazeleyez3]

[quote name='hotspur']Sorry, but you still haven't bothered to read what I've written--or maybe it's just that the written word baffles you. Requiring jackets is one thing. I asked you to explain why it isn't "absurd" to require jackets one night while allowing slacks and a shirt the next. It is the artificial phoniness of that inconsistency that makes no sense to me, and that puts me off. Try to explain that. Really. Try. Try to explain to me why it's a good thing to be told when you must eat EVERY NIGHT while on vacation. Go ahead. Try. Try to tell me why it's a good thing to be told with whom you must dine for 15 days--like them or not. I really want to see what you have to say about these absurdities.

You seem obsessed with one aspect of freestyle: casual dress. Very strange, I'd say, to be so caught up in such a trivial matter.[/quote]


Even the NCL ships I have been on have different dresscodes for different times:

Breakfast and Lunch: you can wear shorts
Dinner: you can't -- but its the same restaurant

[KeystoneCruiser]

Maybe HAL is worth trying after all, now that one can avoid being herded to dinner like a sheep.

 

Droopy, two things to think about...keeping your table mates awake during dinner if they miss their afternoon nap and, I don't think you are old enough...you aren't in your 70's yet are you?

[KeystoneCruiser]

Boy, those HAL and RCCL threads on this topic are a hoot--from the bombastic reverend with the atrocious spelling to those worrying that a mere experiment with flexible dining will "ruin" RCCL. Much talk about how "hurt" people are going to be by the institution of choices. and as such will focus on the minutiae of how best to enjoy the vacations we're all so lucky to have, but so much draaaaaaama over other people having onboard dining options. Goodness!

 

I know...its dining for crying out loud! Its not like they are making you not eat!

 

What is wrong with choice! Personally I really don't care what time people eat, if there is a silly Baked Alaska Parade, and I especially don't care about what others are wearing. Its not going to ruin my meal that the person two tables over is in a tux.

[MrLee]

I have to add my $.02 here. The ONLY problems I have so far encountered on cruises was dining. On HAL we had a table for two and the waiters were so busy we couldn't get waited on. We sat for a full hour waiting and never even got menus. After the second day in a row of this happening we just went to the buffet for the rest of that 14 day cruise. On Celebrity we were assigned to a table for four and the other "lady" complained so much about not having a table for two we gave it to her. (The Maitre'd was nice enough to find us our own table and was tipped accordingly.) On Carnival we couldn't get an early seating (and I hate eating late) but it was our first cruise so we had no idea how to handle it (prior to my introduction to Cruise Critic) and on NCL the buffet on the Dream was a bit of a nightmare but I know the Dream wasn't designed for freestyle so we made do.

 

In no case did it ruin our cruise or cause a lot of aggravation. I guess it just shows that feeding all of these people where, when and how they want is a huge job and I'm amazed they do it as well as they do. And I say that referring to all lines and traditional or freestyle.

 

We usually take longer cruises (11 to 17 days) but we've always had great time regardless of "chow time". ;)

 

Kudos to the folks who feed us with a smile every day.

[travage]

Droopy_Sails,

There's no way though you can deny though that automatic tipping has resulted from cruising becoming a mass produced product. I think its a good thing if it ensures the staff is evenly compensated. Obviously though, there was a time when this was not needed.

Also, I don't pretend to know you so don't pretend to know me. I am fairly well traveled for my age and love traveling. In general, I don't consider cruises to be traveling, but rather vacationing in what you called an artificial world. As many have pointed out, this all comes down to taste. I don't like onboard class systems, but I do like a little class onboard a ship. My disappointment in HAL's decision is more of a reflection of questioning how casual society is becoming in general. Its complicated and I'm sure I'm not expressing myself well without sounding like an elitist snob, which I really don't think I am.

What you are saying about customer demand is for the most part true, and I am glad to see that the big lines are truly responding to diverse customer demands by offering traditional and non-traditional dining. Sadly though, I imagine in a few years traditional will become less and less popular as ships become increasingly designed to accomodate multiple restaurants. I also like smaller ships and the camaraderie they had, so all that is also coloring my opinions. So basically it all comes down taste, and lucky there is a cruise line to suit each one.

[halos]

Celebrity has a modified version of freestyle. At least there was this option on my X cruise on the Infinity.

Although proper dress was required in the dining room, you could go to the buffet area at a certain time in the evening and have a sit down meal, complete with table linens and a wait staff and an amazing meal. This area was staffed with 'waiters in training.' No dress requirements. I think you could even dine in shorts and have your fillet mignon. (sp?) We didn't take advantage of this because we truly did like getting dressed for dinners, but I heard that the service was amazing and the food superb. I'm sure the service was quite good. All these waiters were working their hardest to get an assignment in the regular dining room, so more than likely they'd be busting their butts to make people happy.

[halos]

Kudos to the folks who feed us with a smile every day.

 

I've never experienced any of what you have at meal times on any of my cruises (But I've only taken 5 so far). I will say that I like your attitude about it though. I'd enjoy having you for a tablemate anytime. :)

 

 

So basically it all comes down taste, and lucky there is a cruise line to suit each one.

 

I agree with all that you said. As far as the part I quoted, There is a cruiseline to suit everyone and this is great! I just hope that all the cruise lines don't change and become totally similar. I personally like that they're all different.

[travage]

Thanks halos. I agree entirely with what you said as well. How boring it would be if everything was the same.

[LuvBNatC]

When I sailed on Zuiderdam in 2004, they actually had FOUR seatings, not the usual two. The dining room was on two decks, so it worked like this:

 

5:45 early seating, upper

6:15 early seating, lower

 

8:00 late seating, upper

8:30 late seating, lower

 

How the heck many more options does anyone need, except maybe the ones who scream that they MUST eat at 7:20. :)

 

I can totally see the HAL passengers going ballistic over Freestyle because HAL definitely draws an elderly crowd. They would also take a dim view of relaxing the dress code.

 

HAL's most loyal cruisers definitely seem to expect that they should to be treated like royalty--by crew and other passengers alike. To suddenly tell them they're on their own to find a place and time to eat and have to book it in advance must seem to them like they're being cast out to fend for themselves when they've paid good money to be pampered.

 

If some of those I saw who've sailed over 500 days with HAL ever did make a reservation, they might not even remember it by dinnertime. ;)

 

Rather than feeling smug that Freestyle is spreading throughout the cruise industry like democracy in the Middle East, it wouldn't surprise me if widespread passenger outrage doesn't cause HAL to quietly go back to traditional dining. "Traditional" is their brand, and they may not be able to change that as long as their current clientele comprises a large chunk of their bookings.

[KeystoneCruiser]

I also like smaller ships and the camaraderie they had, so all that is also coloring my opinions. So basically it all comes down taste, and lucky there is a cruise line to suit each one.

 

I quite agree with this statement. The ships are getting larger and larger each year. From RCCL's new Freedom Class of ships to NCL's proposed F3 class coming out in 2009. My TA hates the idea of these huge ships. She calls them "floating cities." She says instead of cruising in a village, you are now going to be cruising in a metropolis!

 

4,000 passengers??? How can you handle that many! Tendering and feeding (regardless of traditional or freestyle) has got to take longer. So why do they do it? Financial and to keep up with the Joneses! RCCL had climbing walls, so NCL had to add one. RCCL had and ice rink, so NCL had to add a Bowling Alley. The list goes on and on.

 

But from a financial standpoint, it would make sense....while you may need more waiters and room stewards for a mega ship, you will be able to cut down on the number of "Senior Officers," Bridge Crew and engineering crews and thus save money.

 

I thought the Dawn was the perfect size...plenty to do but not so many people that you were tripping over each other! I was on the POA also and it just seemed limited in what it had to offer.

 

But I guess the F3's and Freedom Class ships are the waves of the future.

[Droopy_Sails]

I think its a good thing if it ensures the staff is evenly compensated. Obviously though, there was a time when this was not needed.

 

Although you didn't intend this to be humorous, your construction ensures that it's hilarious. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't intend to say that at one time, the staff didn't need to be decently compensated.

 

(Or did you? With your posts, it's truly hard to tell. You may not want to sound like an elitist--but, kiddo, you are one.)

 

Look, travage, you're engaging in faulty logic here. The fact that autogratuities were a long time coming doesn't indicate that they weren't needed until their eventual adoption. Cruise-ship waiters have been getting stiffed since cruising began. You continue to argue that undertipping has only been a problem since mass cruising came about--fine; please present some evidence of this other than your sincere desire to believe it.

[Droopy_Sails]

If some of those I saw who've sailed over 500 days with HAL ever did make a reservation, they might not even remember it by dinnertime. ;)

 

Oh, now, that was snarky...and hilarious!

 

Rather than feeling smug that Freestyle is spreading throughout the cruise industry like democracy in the Middle East, it wouldn't surprise me if widespread passenger outrage doesn't cause HAL to quietly go back to traditional dining. "Traditional" is their brand, and they may not be able to change that as long as their current clientele comprises a large chunk of their bookings.

 

Maybe. But since HAL is looking, like all cruise lines do, to increase first-time sales rather than rely on the old battleships (hey, this is fun) for their business, I think they've thought this through pretty carefully. They tested it thoroughly before deciding to make it permanent. Whatever's said on these boards, which tend to attract the cruise geeks rather than the casual cruiser, HAL passengers have spoken--and they want flexible dining.

[MrLee]

Celebrity has a modified version of freestyle.

 

The only problem with this was that you still had to be waited on. Sometimes I just like to help myself! ;)

 

I sometimes enjoy the buffet even at dinner time. :D

[pangean]

When I sailed on Zuiderdam in 2004, they actually had FOUR seatings, not the usual two. The dining room was on two decks, so it worked like this:

 

5:45 early seating, upper

6:15 early seating, lower

 

8:00 late seating, upper

8:30 late seating, lower

 

How the heck many more options does anyone need, except maybe the ones who scream that they MUST eat at 7:20. :)

 

I can totally see the HAL passengers going ballistic over Freestyle because HAL definitely draws an elderly crowd. They would also take a dim view of relaxing the dress code.

 

 

Linda;

 

I could see your point if it was possible to eat at 6:15 on day 1 and 2, 5:30 on day 3, 8:30 on day 4 (after a fun-filled by tiring port stop), then go back to 6:15 on day 5, etc. The fixed seating times made more sense when a cruise meant a trans-Atlantic crossing with nothing but sea days. The set eating time likely gave structure to a very long and monotonous voyage. However, with shorter cruises and a mixture of sea and port days, the requirement to choose a single time to eat for the duration of the cruise seems outdated (and without intending to cause affront to anyone) downright silly. I just prefer dining on my schedule based upon what our family has done that day (actually 7:20 sounds like a mighty fine time).

 

Having recently cruised on HAL I can understand your comments regarding the age of the typical HAL cruiser and their apparent reaction. They just don't like change, but HAL management can also see the writing on the wall and have determined that in order to maintain/expand their market share they will need to appeal to a younger cruiser. I, for one, would give greater consideration to a HAL cruise if I could have more flexible eating arrangements.

 

P.

[KeystoneCruiser]

If you haven't had a chance to lurk over on the HAL and RCCL boards, try to slip over there and "listen in" It is quite a show on both boards. You would think the lines are deystroying cruising!

 

Btw: RCCL is introducing Anytime dining (or something similar) on one of their Ships (Freedom of the Seas) as a trial.

 

They don't even realize it when they say stuff that shows why Freestyle is better! Over on the RCCL board there is a thread about a couple on their Honeymoon. They had specifically requested a table for two for the cruise. Their table for two was situated right next to a large table of kids who's parents were at the next table. The poster complained that the kids were noisy all week and it disrupted their romantic dinners.

 

Helloooooo Lady....if RCCL had Freestyle, you wouldn't have been STUCK next to those kids all week! You could have chosen a different restaurant or dined at a different time if it had been Freestyle! Another problem with traditional dining...you get a bad situation...you are stuck!

[LuvBNatC]

But since HAL is looking, like all cruise lines do, to increase first-time sales rather than rely on the old battleships (hey, this is fun) for their business, I think they've thought this through pretty carefully. They tested it thoroughly before deciding to make it permanent. Whatever's said on these boards, which tend to attract the cruise geeks rather than the casual cruiser, HAL passengers have spoken--and they want flexible dining.

 

I have no doubt that all the mass-market lines will go to some type of anytime dining as their ships will permit it. Throughout history, liberal thinking has eventually prevailed in almost human endeavor you can think of. It's called progress.

 

However, I think HAL is in a precarious position right now because they don't exactly have a reputation as the "hip & happenin'" cruise line where anything goes. In fact, intrepid younger cruisers who try HAL often come back to CC complaining about the advanced age of the passengers and the negative vibes they can create. (I saw it first-hand--they're a tough crowd.)

 

For the time being, they are still the ones buttering HAL's bread, and will continue to be so as long as they can get themselves to a -dam ship.

 

It's going to take a lot more than a relaxed dining policy for HAL to overcome this, and I'm afraid a lot of die-hard HAL cruising seniors will get trampled in the march of progress because they'll allow change only over their own dead bodies. ;) It will be interesting over the next few years to see how it plays out for them.

[Retired not Expired]

Maybe. But since HAL is looking, like all cruise lines do, to increase first-time sales rather than rely on the old battleships (hey, this is fun) for their business, I think they've thought this through pretty carefully. They tested it thoroughly before deciding to make it permanent. Whatever's said on these boards, which tend to attract the cruise geeks rather than the casual cruiser, HAL passengers have spoken--and they want flexible dining.

 

Exactly. Some seem to think some ranting and raving on CC will change the cruise lines minds. We're just a blip on the radar screen of all they look at when making these changes. There's much more reliable sources for their information than a small segment of cruisers with too much time on their hands plus some who are supposedly at work, evident by those who show up on here at nine and leave at five Monday through Friday.

 

Not to mention the over the top claims some make on here which reduces the realiability of what can be taken from here.

 

This is a darn good site for those to get good information about cruising but not for a cruise line to make a decision.

[bmacri]

It's funny watching everyone arguing over the same thing.

Remember when you were young and went to a boys or girls camp? Like a YMCA camp?

 

You got up every day at the same time, ate at the same time, did arts and crafts at the same time, swam at the same time, and all lights were turned out at the same time. You probably had a dress code and even had camp shirts that all matched. Yet, you had a marvelous time and always wanted to go back.

 

Also, as a kid, you might have gone on vacations where you perhaps camped. You did things at spur of the moment. You probably didn't even wear a watch because you didn't need to. You got up when you wanted, wore what you wanted, ate when and where you wanted. You probably loved those trips.

 

Cruising is the same way. It depends on what you are used to. Some need the schedule (traditional) and some find the non-scheduled (freestyle) vacation to be better. And, there are some of us that just don't care one way or the other.

 

Remember you are going on a cruise to get away from it all. Don't worry if you are up to your armpits in traditional or freestyle. If you dwell on that then chances are you aren't going to have a good time.

 

But please, for the rest of us, just keep your comments to yourself during the cruise.

 

Thank you.

[KeystoneCruiser]

It's funny watching everyone arguing over the same thing.

Remember when you were young and went to a boys or girls camp? Like a YMCA camp?

 

You got up every day at the same time, ate at the same time, did arts and crafts at the same time, swam at the same time, and all lights were turned out at the same time. You probably had a dress code and even had camp shirts that all matched. Yet, you had a marvelous time and always wanted to go back.

 

Also, as a kid, you might have gone on vacations where you perhaps camped. You did things at spur of the moment. You probably didn't even wear a watch because you didn't need to. You got up when you wanted, wore what you wanted, ate when and where you wanted. You probably loved those trips.

 

Cruising is the same way. It depends on what you are used to. Some need the schedule (traditional) and some find the non-scheduled (freestyle) vacation to be better. And, there are some of us that just don't care one way or the other.

 

Remember you are going on a cruise to get away from it all. Don't worry if you are up to your armpits in traditional or freestyle. If you dwell on that then chances are you aren't going to have a good time.

 

But please, for the rest of us, just keep your comments to yourself during the cruise.

 

Thank you.

 

BMacri: Please, please, post this on the HAL and RCCL boards! It is a breath of fresh air that all could use on this!!

[KeystoneCruiser]

and I'm afraid a lot of die-hard HAL cruising seniors will get trampled in the march of progress because they'll allow change only over their own dead bodies. ;)

 

From what I've heard about the collective age on that line, this shouldn't take long......lol:D

 

Exactly. Some seem to think some ranting and raving on CC will change the cruise lines minds. We're just a blip on the radar screen of all they look at when making these changes.

 

This is a darn good site for those to get good information about cruising but not for a cruise line to make a decision.

 

There was a comment about six months ago that Cruise Critic Members account for something like 2% of all cruise line passengers. NCL and the other lines may read these threads (and may even gather a few ideas), but the membership of Cruise Critic is too minute to affect policy.

 

(and not to mention that many people who join CC, do so either to find out information for an upcoming cruise and then disappear after their cruise or they are disgruntled about their cruise, hear of CC and come on as a "one hit" wonder to bash the line and then disappear. So the 2% may be a little high.)

[songanddance]

Great. Then sail other cruise lines and leave us alone.

 

 

Good to see you are your pleasant self. Must be a joy to live with.