Freestyle catching on? - Holland America Line Introduces As You Wish Dining

[Droopy_Sails]

[quote name='Globaliser']But before the triumphalism gets out of hand, don't forget that consistent experience on Princess is that traditional dining is over-subscribed and waitlisted, and anytime dining is under-subscribed and where you get put if you miss out. So it's not (yet) even for a majority of Princess passengers, let alone everyone.[/QUOTE]

So what? I don't need freestyle/anytime/as you wish to be the norm on every line and every ship. I just want to have the option, and I'm glad to have it on as many lines/ships as decide it's a good strategy for them.

I'd never suggest that traditional should disappear because I don't like it, and I've yet to see anywhere here suggest such a thing. However, I see a whole lot of people over at RCCL and HAL moaning that others shouldn't have the option to eat when they like.

[Retired not Expired]

[quote name='Retired not Expired']But this too may change now that they are looking at cards for diners coming into the anytime dining room. It seems many of the ones who get the traditional are misusing it. They go to the traditional room when it fits but when it doesn't, they've been going to the anytime dining room, both leaving many empty seats in the traditional room and jamming up the anytime. Now they are being carded, this will stop. They won't be allowed in the anytime dining room. Some of them may now opt out of traditional since they can't have the best of both worlds and not caring what it does to other diners. This may open more seats for those that want traditional plus keep the waiting down for anytime.

The system will work if they can keep the cruisers from screwing it up. I'm sure HAL and RCI will learn from the others.[/quote]

To go a little further, this says to me that at least some of those who say they must have traditional really only want it when it fits their needs and are so use to it, that it is the change they fear more than what it can do for them.

[cliffd64]

[quote name='Retired not Expired']To go a little further, this says to me that at least some of those who say they must have traditional really only want it when it fits their needs and are so use to it, that it is the change they fear more than what it can do for them.[/QUOTE]

Bingo! it's change that is the problem, not the concept of eating when you want :)

[hotspur]

One can only wonder how miserable those who insist on traditional dining must be when it comes to dining ashore. How many restaurants insist that you sign up for a fixed, never-changing dinner time every time you come to the restaurant? How many insist that you sit with a group of strangers every time you come for dinner? How many change their dress code every night so that on some nights you must wear a suit or tuxedo, on others a jacket, and on still others you can be in slacks and a shirt, and so you have to call before coming in order to determine the dress du jour? Where do these people find such restaurants on land? Or do they "despise" going out to eat in local restaurants?

My guess is those who "despise" freestyle would not put up with such an absurd degree of regimentation on land, yet they for some strange reason prefer it at sea. Bizarre, I'd say.

[hazeleyez3]

[quote name='hotspur']One can only wonder how miserable those who insist on traditional dining must be when it comes to dining ashore. How many restaurants insist that you sign up for a fixed, never-changing dinner time every time you come to the restaurant? How many insist that you sit with a group of strangers every time you come for dinner? How many change their dress code every night so that on some nights you must wear a suit or tuxedo, on others a jacket, and on still others you can be in slacks and a shirt, and so you have to call before coming in order to determine the dress du jour? Where do these people find such restaurants on land? Or do they "despise" going out to eat in local restaurants?

My guess is those who "despise" freestyle would not put up with such an absurd degree of regimentation on land, yet they for some strange reason prefer it at sea. Bizarre, I'd say.[/quote]

Ok, my thought is that 1) since you made a snide comment to my first post, and 2) chose to stress "despise" (which I used in my 1st post) your comment was targeted at me (and possibly those like me).

So... let me just respond by saying:

1.) I never said they shouldn't do as you wish dining...I said as long as they keep traditional as an option.

2.) I am not miserable when dining in land-based restaurants. I have different expectations for these restaurants than I do a cruise ship. There is also more flexibility for me with land-based restaurants (when not traveling). For example, we decide to do a dinner and movie. We have a longer wait for dinner and run late, well we can drive over to a different theater 10 min away, and catch a later showing of the same movie. Can't do that on a cruiseship all the time.

3.) For non-NCL(A) lines: You do not have to sit with strangers...you can get a table for 2 if you wish.

4.) Part of the cruising experience for me is to have 1 set dining room, 1 set of waiters, 1 set table, etc etc. If I wanted to have the same experiences that I do with land-based restaurants, I'd take a land-based vacation.

5.) As noted earlier, due to the cost of Hawaii, and the itinerary offered I was willing to settle for the freestyle experience on NCLA for our honeymoon. The two previous NCL cruises were for family reunions, and therefore not my choice.

6.) Same point as #1. I understand that there are people that like the freestyle experience on cruises, and I am not saying they should do away with it. I am simply saying that I don't want the traditional dining to be eliminated.

[halos]

[quote name='hazeleyez3'] 4.) Part of the cruising experience for me is to have 1 set dining room, 1 set of waiters, 1 set table, etc etc. If I wanted to have the same experiences that I do with land-based restaurants, I'd take a land-based vacation.

6.) Same point as #1. I understand that there are people that like the freestyle experience on cruises, and I am not saying they should do away with it. I am simply saying that I don't want the traditional dining to be eliminated.[/QUOTE]

I agree.:)




I'm trying NCL/Freestyle in November and I know I will enjoy being casual, but to be honest, I'll be standing in line or waiting on the phone to make reservations quite a bit since this is a 15 day cruise and we'll be dining a lot (if not every night) in the surcharge restaurants...depending on how the food in the regular dining room is.
I don't mind it for this cruise and I'm sure I'll love NCL and will want to sail it again, BUT I also want to be able to do other lines with traditional dining in between. I LOVE having a set time and I LOVE having the same wait staff every night and the familiarity and great service that comes with that. We have never experienced being rushed back from a port because we always have late seating, so that was never an issue for us.
I know NCL fans choose it for the freedom of Freestyle and that's great, but there [I]are [/I]some of us that don't mind 'less' freedom. I also like the idea of variety...which is why I hope [I]all[/I] cruise lines don't implement this.
Who wants all the lines to be that similar???? Where's the fun in that??

[Zeno]

[quote name='hazeleyez3']
1.) I never said they shouldn't do as you wish dining...I said as long as they keep traditional as an option.

2.) I am not miserable when dining in land-based restaurants. I have different expectations for these restaurants than I do a cruise ship. There is also more flexibility for me with land-based restaurants (when not traveling). For example, we decide to do a dinner and movie. We have a longer wait for dinner and run late, well we can drive over to a different theater 10 min away, and catch a later showing of the same movie. Can't do that on a cruiseship all the time.

3.) For non-NCL(A) lines: You do not have to sit with strangers...you can get a table for 2 if you wish.

4.) Part of the cruising experience for me is to have 1 set dining room, 1 set of waiters, 1 set table, etc etc. If I wanted to have the same experiences that I do with land-based restaurants, I'd take a land-based vacation.

5.) As noted earlier, due to the cost of Hawaii, and the itinerary offered I was willing to settle for the freestyle experience on NCLA for our honeymoon. The two previous NCL cruises were for family reunions, and therefore not my choice.

6.) Same point as #1. I understand that there are people that like the freestyle experience on cruises, and I am not saying they should do away with it. I am simply saying that I don't want the traditional dining to be eliminated.[/QUOTE]

Uhm - NCL has not had "traditional" dining for years. NCL "eliminated" traditional dining some time ago. It is not an option on any NCL ship. There are no "seatings" and nowhere do they guaranty that you can have the same waiter or table every night. You can request them. Making a reservation is not the same as "traditional' cruisehip dining. With "traditional" cruiseship dining you do not make reservations - you are "assigned" a specific table, tablemates and dining time - when you make your booking you have some input about which "seating" you get but I don't think too many cruiselines guaranty you a specific seating. As for getting a table for 2 with traditional dining, you may request one but you are not guaranteed one.

I assume (considering the above) that what you mean is that you would prefer to cruise on lines that will offer you traditional dining (which NCL does not offer) - which is fine - we all have our preferences.

[hazeleyez3]

[quote name='Zeno']Uhm - NCL has not had "traditional" dining for years. NCL "eliminated" traditional dining some time ago. It is not an option on any NCL ship. There are no "seatings" and nowhere do they guaranty that you can have the same waiter or table every night. You can request them. Making a reservation is not the same as "traditional' cruisehip dining. With "traditional" cruiseship dining you do not make reservations - you are "assigned" a specific table, tablemates and dining time - when you make your booking you have some input about which "seating" you get but I don't think too many cruiselines guaranty you a specific seating. As for getting a table for 2 with traditional dining, you may request one but you are not guaranteed one.

I assume (considering the above) that what you mean is that you would prefer to cruise on lines that will offer you traditional dining (which NCL does not offer) - which is fine - we all have our preferences.[/quote]

Correct. I already know NCL did not have traditional dining. Also, the original statement I made on pg 1 was about [I][U][B]HAL[/B][/U][/I], which is the line the OP references with the press release.

I have since answered and/or responded to specific statements about NCL and dining styles (which is why I have talked more about traditional). The one you have quoted is a response to a previous post.

[travage]

hotspur,
Your poorly crafted comparison between dining on land and sea illustrates clearly how people fail to grasp the inate differences of trying to run a restaurant on sea and one on land. Most land restautrants aren't attempting trying to pump out 3,000 5 course diners between the hours of 6 and 8. They aren't comparable-land waiters also don't work for 6 months without a day off, etc..........
Serving a formal multi-course meal in a freestyle system is simply difficult for everyone involved, which is probably why we will continue to see less courses being offered. I love the idea of speciality restaurants on ships with their own dedicated galleys, but trying to run a large dining room on a ship in that fashion is difficult and usually ineffiecient. Anyone who has sailed NCL, RCCL and Carnival will undoubtedly agree that in general the dining rooms on the latter cruise lines are more effeicient.

[hotspur]

[quote name='hazeleyez3']

1.) I never said they shouldn't do as you wish dining...I said as long as they keep traditional as an option. [/quote]
You said you "despise" freestyle dining, an absurdly over-the-top statement. Despise means "to hold in contempt" or "to scorn."

[quote]2.) I am not miserable when dining in land-based restaurants. I have different expectations for these restaurants than I do a cruise ship. There is also more flexibility for me with land-based restaurants (when not traveling). For example, we decide to do a dinner and movie. We have a longer wait for dinner and run late, well we can drive over to a different theater 10 min away, and catch a later showing of the same movie. Can't do that on a cruiseship all the time.[/quote]
Just go to dinner early enough to make sure you'll make the show. I've spent nearly 60 nights on NCL freestyle ships and never waited to go to dinner in a main dining room. In fact, the only times I've been late for a show were on traditional dining ships, where you have to wait for everyone in the dining room to move in lockstep from course to course. You're describing a problem that doesn't exist on NCL, in my experience.

[quote]3.) For non-NCL(A) lines: You do not have to sit with strangers...you can get a table for 2 if you wish. [/quote]
As someone has already pointed out: You can request this but there is no guarantee you'll get it. On the one HAL ship we sailed there were few tables for two in the main dining room. Also, as someone else has pointed out, you may request "early" or "late" seating, but there is no guarantee you'll get what you want, especially if you book late. You may "despise" freestyle, but I dislike being told by someone else when I must eat...especially when I'm on vacation. On land or at sea.

[quote]4.) Part of the cruising experience for me is to have 1 set dining room, 1 set of waiters, 1 set table, etc etc. If I wanted to have the same experiences that I do with land-based restaurants, I'd take a land-based vacation. [/quote]
Fine. Then take my recommendation and don't cruise NCL. Easy solution. Nothing "snide" about it.

[quote]5.) As noted earlier, due to the cost of Hawaii, and the itinerary offered I was willing to settle for the freestyle experience on NCLA for our honeymoon. The two previous NCL cruises were for family reunions, and therefore not my choice.[/quote]
Sounds like you knew what you were getting into with freestyle, so why complain?

[quote]6.) Same point as #1. I understand that there are people that like the freestyle experience on cruises, and I am not saying they should do away with it. I am simply saying that I don't want the traditional dining to be eliminated.[/QUOTE]
No, that's not what you said. You said you "despised" freestyle.

[hotspur]

[quote name='travage']hotspur,
Your poorly crafted comparison between dining on land and sea illustrates clearly how people fail to grasp the inate differences of trying to run a restaurant on sea and one on land. Most land restautrants aren't attempting trying to pump out 3,000 5 course diners between the hours of 6 and 8. They aren't comparable-land waiters also don't work for 6 months without a day off, etc..........
Serving a formal multi-course meal in a freestyle system is simply difficult for everyone involved, which is probably why we will continue to see less courses being offered. I love the idea of speciality restaurants on ships with their own dedicated galleys, but trying to run a large dining room on a ship in that fashion is difficult and usually ineffiecient. Anyone who has sailed NCL, RCCL and Carnival will undoubtedly agree that in general the dining rooms on the latter cruise lines are more effeicient.[/QUOTE]
My post was not "poorly-crafted" at all, but your response above is utterly irrelevant to the discussion, which is the difference between freestyle and traditional dining from the point of view of the passenger. What you've written above is immaterial to this. The difficulty in serving freestyle vs. traditional is the cruise line's problem, not the passenger's. Are you saying we should all prefer traditional because it's more difficult to serve freestyle? By the way, I've sailed HAL and Celebrity and they're the only cruise lines where I've had to walk out of the dining room early in order to make a show. So your comment about efficiency is pure nonsense, unsurprisingly. I have no interest in cruising RCCL or Carnival.

No one would put up with the rigidity of traditional dining and the absurdity of differing dress codes every night at a land-based restaurant. The fact that some seem to prefer it on a cruise is a source of great wonderment to me, but, as they say, there's no accounting for taste.

[halos]

[quote name='hotspur'] The fact that some seem to prefer it on a cruise is a source of great wonderment to me, but, as they say, there's no accounting for taste.[/QUOTE]

I guess I like rigid and absurd then :rolleyes: so keep wondering. I'll worry about my own taste, thankyouverymuch.
I find it absurd that I can understand and accept you liking Freestyle even though I like traditional, but you think someone who likes traditional has no taste. I'm thinking our tastes are just different....but that's how I'd look at it. Obviously you have a different way of seeing things; you're taste is 'right' and everyone else's is 'wrong'

amazing. :rolleyes:

[KeystoneCruiser]

[quote name='travage'] Anyone who has sailed NCL, RCCL and Carnival will undoubtedly agree that in general the dining rooms on the latter cruise lines are more effeicient.[/quote]

My mother has cruised on all three cruise lines. She has not had one positive comment to say about Carnival. She thought their food was disgusting, she thought the waiters had no personality and dad (who has worked in catering in his life) said Carnivals food service was the most disorganized food operation he had ever seen.

So maybe you should change "anyone who has sailed" to "Some who have sailed."

[hotspur]

Duplicate.

[hotspur]

[quote name='halos']I guess I like rigid and absurd then :rolleyes: so keep wondering. I'll worry about my own taste, thankyouverymuch.
I find it absurd that I can understand and accept you liking Freestyle even though I like traditional, but you think someone who likes traditional has no taste. I'm thinking our tastes are just different....but that's how I'd look at it. Obviously you have a different way of seeing things; you're taste is 'right' and everyone else's is 'wrong'

amazing. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
You should learn to comprehend what you read. I said "there's no accounting for taste." That means that your taste may differ from mine. I didn't say yours was wrong. You inferred that. Not my problem.

But I do in fact wonder how someone can in fact prefer being told when, where, and with whom they MUST eat...and what they MUST wear while eating. While on vacation. For which they're paying good money.

And I'd love to read your justification for why it's OK to wear a shirt and slacks one night in a dining room but on the next night in order to be let in to that same room you must be in a suit or tuxedo. Sorry, pal, but that IS simply "absurd" to me. Go ahead. Try.

[NowVoyager908]

[quote name='Globaliser']But before the triumphalism gets out of hand, don't forget that consistent experience on Princess is that traditional dining is over-subscribed and waitlisted, and anytime dining is under-subscribed and where you get put if you miss out. So it's not (yet) even for a majority of Princess passengers, let alone everyone.[/quote]

When I traveled on Princess back in 2002, it was specifically because of what they called "Personal Choice" dining. I have always hated having to dine at a specific time each night. It made me feel like I was in military school. LOL. I jumped at the chance to try something different and it turned out to be one of the best cruising experiences I have ever had.

At the time, they had two dining rooms for traditional and one for anytime. If they have flipped that, it probably means that more and more passengers are requesting anytime. Perhaps Princess, like most of the mass market lines, is simply responding to what the majority of clients want. Unfortunately, not everyone can be accommodated. On one RCCL cruise which offered only traditional dining, I requested late seating and was placed in the main seating instead. I haven't eaten dinner at 6:00 p.m. since I was in grade school and I wasn't about to start doing it again on my vacation. I'm often still at the pool at 6:00 p.m. I wound up eating in the specialty restaurants and in the buffet (luckily is was only five nights) and had a great time anyway. Again, different strokes . . .

[travage]

keystonecruiser,
I find your comment hard to believe. My family has been in the food service industry for decades, and while none of us would categorize the food as gourmet, saying it is disgusting is a little overblown. The food on NCL and Carnival in the main dining rooms are similar-OK to good mass-produced banquet style food. I personally find the food on Carnival better and their dining service is obviously not too disorganized if they manage to produce a couple of thouand meals a night in a timely fashion.
In every one of the three cruises I have taken with NCL, dinner averaged three hours-thats slow, especially considering the food is not being cooked to order. I guess though when the waiters are trying to serve that many courses to a large section of tables, while also trying to do things like reset their tables for more freestylers, things can get a little behind. But this is a really all a matter of taste, because what you consider stuffy service, I would probably enjoy, but thats the nice thing about having so many cruise lines to choose from.

Hotspur,

You're right about one thing-this all really comes down to a matter of taste. I have grown up going to restaurants and hotels that required jackets at dinner and still do. For me getting dressed for dinner was just routine and I have grown fond of these formalities. So to you they may be absurd, and to me freestyling may be absurd. I originally commented on this post because I was upset to see that HAL, a line dating back to the 1800s, was giving in to the freestyling mentality, especially since their brand is based on the more "stuffy" cruising experience that some of us still like. That way I see it, NCL does their thing and makes a lot of people happy in the process, so I kind of wish the other lines didn't feel the need to follow suit, but to their credit they have all kept a traditional dining room, which I think is a good idea. Growing up in the restaurant industry, I can't help to think about how these changes impact those people affected the most-the ship board crew so that is why I mentioned the difficulty of freestyling above. It is not as easy as traditional assigned seating ship service and thats just a matter of fact. Also, the changes that have risen out of Freestyling-like programs, such as, automatic gratuities have really changed how a ships crew operates. Most people probably don't give anything above the $10 a day, which is really not a lot, and this has deeply impacted how much money these people make and the respect they and others have for their work. They didn't all used to be career waiters for the fun of it-they made really good money and were respected by their guests for being the true professionals that they were. Not that crews on ships today aren't amazing, because in my opinion, anyone who can work for 6 months without a day off and smile while doing it is amazing, but in general, they now serve more people, and make less money.
But once again this is all a matter of taste and the myriad factors that shape who we turn out to be. I'm glad you enjoy NCL, and respect your opinions, even if I don't agree. There's a lot of ships in the sea and I just hope that some of them don't change too much.

[berryberry]

[quote name='hotspur']One can only wonder how miserable those who insist on traditional dining must be when it comes to dining ashore. How many restaurants insist that you sign up for a fixed, never-changing dinner time every time you come to the restaurant? How many insist that you sit with a group of strangers every time you come for dinner? How many change their dress code every night so that on some nights you must wear a suit or tuxedo, on others a jacket, and on still others you can be in slacks and a shirt, and so you have to call before coming in order to determine the dress du jour? Where do these people find such restaurants on land? Or do they "despise" going out to eat in local restaurants?

My guess is those who "despise" freestyle would not put up with such an absurd degree of regimentation on land, yet they for some strange reason prefer it at sea. Bizarre, I'd say.[/QUOTE]

LOL - excellent post and points made. Although if you posted that on the HAL board you'd likely be shot - literally. I posted on the HAL board on the thread discussing HAL formally introducing As You Wish Dining noting I was glad to see it and it may make me give HAL more consideration in the future - and you would have thought I insulted someone's mother. Wow are some of the folks there hot under the collar.

I really can't understand people who can't understand the benefits of more choice and less regimentation

[berryberry]

[quote name='travage']keystonecruiser,
Also, the changes that have risen out of Freestyling-like programs, such as, automatic gratuities have really changed how a ships crew operates. Most people probably don't give anything above the $10 a day, which is really not a lot, and this has deeply impacted how much money these people make and the respect they and others have for their work. [/QUOTE]

I think you are off base with this comment. In the past for everyone that tipped more than the recommened amount, I am sure the waiters encountered people who tipped less or not at all. Used to be the last night of dining would be the most popular at the buffet. Why was that :) You know and I know it was so many folks could easily get out from giving a tip.

Now the waiters know exactly how much they are making and can count on an even income stream

[travage]

berryberry,

I don't think I was too off base, but to clarify I was more or less refering to the days when cruising was really only available to people who knew how to tip and for whom this was a part of everyday life. Of course there are always excpetions and obviously automatic gratuity was neccesitated by cruise lines attracting a crowd that was not used to this. Before you call me a snob, its just a fact-the crowd that cruises today is not the crowd that cruised even a decade ago. I'm glad to see that so many people have this opportunity now, and do believe that for some lines automatic tipping is a neccesity.
Personally, I find anyone who skips out of giving a tip to a ship waiter and his or her assistants repugnant and I still think that $10 a day is not enough regardless of how budget-orientated a cruise line is trying to be. Anyone who honestly thinks they are well covered by the automatic tips should think again. Would you tip a land waiter $ 3 for serving you a 5 course meal? I dare anyone who doesn't tip to try and do what those people do.
Some countries have forced military service, I think everyone in the US should have to spend a month as a waiter-oh the happier world we would have.
Can you tell berryberry that you hit a real point of contention with me and these boards. LOL:D I could ramble on for ever, but I'll stop.

[hotspur]

[quote name='travage']Hotspur,

You're right about one thing-this all really comes down to a matter of taste. I have grown up going to restaurants and hotels that required jackets at dinner and still do. For me getting dressed for dinner was just routine and I have grown fond of these formalities. So to you they may be absurd, and to me freestyling may be absurd. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you still haven't bothered to read what I've written--or maybe it's just that the written word baffles you. Requiring jackets is one thing. I asked you to explain why it isn't "absurd" to require jackets one night while allowing slacks and a shirt the next. It is the artificial phoniness of that inconsistency that makes no sense to me, and that puts me off. Try to explain that. Really. Try. Try to explain to me why it's a good thing to be told when you must eat EVERY NIGHT while on vacation. Go ahead. Try. Try to tell me why it's a good thing to be told with whom you must dine for 15 days--like them or not. I really want to see what you have to say about these absurdities.

You seem obsessed with one aspect of freestyle: casual dress. Very strange, I'd say, to be so caught up in such a trivial matter.

[Globaliser]

[quote name='hotspur']One can only wonder how miserable those who insist on traditional dining must be when it comes to dining ashore. How many restaurants insist that you sign up for a fixed, never-changing dinner time every time you come to the restaurant? How many insist that you sit with a group of strangers every time you come for dinner? How many change their dress code every night so that on some nights you must wear a suit or tuxedo, on others a jacket, and on still others you can be in slacks and a shirt, and so you have to call before coming in order to determine the dress du jour? Where do these people find such restaurants on land? Or do they "despise" going out to eat in local restaurants?

My guess is those who "despise" freestyle would not put up with such an absurd degree of regimentation on land, yet they for some strange reason prefer it at sea. Bizarre, I'd say.[/QUOTE][quote name='hotspur']Requiring jackets is one thing. I asked you to explain why it isn't "absurd" to require jackets one night while allowing slacks and a shirt the next. It is the artificial phoniness of that inconsistency that makes no sense to me, and that puts me off. Try to explain that. Really. Try. Try to explain to me why it's a good thing to be told when you must eat EVERY NIGHT while on vacation. Go ahead. Try. Try to tell me why it's a good thing to be told with whom you must dine for 15 days--like them or not. I really want to see what you have to say about these absurdities.[/QUOTE]There are plenty of places ashore that require this. But they are not your everyday shoreside restaurants where all comers are served whenever. All inclusive resorts with theme evenings, house-party retreat holidays, etc frequently require this - and these are structurally close analogues to the equally isolated world-in-itself of a cruise ship.

More and more cruisers want their cruise ship to be more like an open shoreside resort hotel, with more freedom to choose. Fine. But when you ridicule, you simply demonstrate how narrow your own experience is of the leisure industry, and how little you understand where parallels can and cannot be drawn.

[Globaliser]

[quote name='Droopy_Sails']So what? I don't need freestyle/anytime/as you wish to be the norm on every line and every ship. I just want to have the option, and I'm glad to have it on as many lines/ships as decide it's a good strategy for them.

I'd never suggest that traditional should disappear because I don't like it, and I've yet to see anywhere here suggest such a thing. However, I see a whole lot of people over at RCCL and HAL moaning that others shouldn't have the option to eat when they like.[/QUOTE]There's an element here who take the view that this is more evidence that NCL was first, NCL was right, and NCL's view will take over the world. Even more than that, some seem to suggest that every one who does not now embrace freestyle is wrong, old-fashioned, stick-in-the-mud or just soft in the head.

At least you and I agree that there is clearly a demand for traditional dining out there, which is not going to vanish in the foreseeable future.

[cliffd64]

[quote name='travage']berryberry,

I don't think I was too off base, but to clarify I was more or less refering to the days when cruising was really only available to people who knew how to tip and for whom this was a part of everyday life. Of course there are always excpetions and obviously automatic gratuity was neccesitated by cruise lines attracting a crowd that was not used to this. Before you call me a snob, its just a fact-the crowd that cruises today is not the crowd that cruised even a decade ago. I'm glad to see that so many people have this opportunity now, and do believe that for some lines automatic tipping is a neccesity.
Personally, I find anyone who skips out of giving a tip to a ship waiter and his or her assistants repugnant and I still think that $10 a day is not enough regardless of how budget-orientated a cruise line is trying to be. Anyone who honestly thinks they are well covered by the automatic tips should think again. Would you tip a land waiter $ 3 for serving you a 5 course meal? I dare anyone who doesn't tip to try and do what those people do.
Some countries have forced military service, I think everyone in the US should have to spend a month as a waiter-oh the happier world we would have.
Can you tell berryberry that you hit a real point of contention with me and these boards. LOL:D I could ramble on for ever, but I'll stop.[/QUOTE]

Nice elitist remarks there. A real pleasure to see your true colors.

[Droopy_Sails]

[quote name='travage']That way I see it, NCL does their thing and makes a lot of people happy in the process, so I kind of wish the other lines didn't feel the need to follow suit, but to their credit they have all kept a traditional dining room, which I think is a good idea.[/QUOTE]

But since you're not being forced to choose freestyle/anytime/as you wish, why in the world would you wish other lines weren't following suit? And you seem to be discounting the fact that other lines aren't following suit for any reason other than [B]customer demand[/B]. So in essence, you're saying, "I wish the other lines weren't giving passengers what they want."

[quote name='travage']Also, the changes that have risen out of Freestyling-like programs, such as, automatic gratuities have really changed how a ships crew operates. Most people probably don't give anything above the $10 a day, which is really not a lot, and this has deeply impacted how much money these people make...in general, they now serve more people, and make less money.[/QUOTE]

Now this is in direct opposition to what we hear from longtime waiters on NCL, many of whom have also worked on other lines. I think you are extrapolating your own thoughtful tipping habits to all others, which just isn't what really happens.

We've discussed this with at least a dozen crew members who inform us that the amount of stiffing that went on under the "traditional" gratuity system was appalling. Two different waiters told us that on HAL and Celebrity, people regularly didn't show up for dinner the last night so they wouldn't have to pay gratuities. Every single person we talked to said they make more money with autogratuities.

Having said that, we always tip extra for stellar service, particularly with our cabin stewards who have always been excellent. I don't know how many other NCL passengers do this; I hope it's not a minority.

You are right that freestyle waiters have to work harder than traditional servers. I don't see any way to avoid this and still give today's customers what they want. It would be nice if NCL paid a living wage, but we all know passengers wouldn't stand for the slightest commensurate increase in fares.