So Much for Honesty!

[Kerry's Girls]

 

As for those who say you need travel to make you a well rounded individual, gee, I'm sorry I don't agree. What about those who have familes who cannot afford to take cruises or travel? What about those from single parent families who cannot do such things? Are these unfortunates any less of a well-rounded person? Travel is a priviledge and not an individual right and while it does enhance a person's life experience, it in no way provides the free pass to living a more well-rounded life. If that were the case, our country would be filled with a lot of poorly rounded individuals because in the scheme of things, a vast majority of our population does not participate in the luxury travels that those on these boards have the privilege of doing.

 

I'm a single mother of twins. I bring my lunch to work every day, my girls wear used clothes and play with secondhand toys, and I have foam padding instead of carpeting in part of my bedroom because I haven't been able to afford to replace it since I had a flood two years ago - but we have our next cruise booked. When I was growing up, the girls around me thought that not having the latest handbag was a tragedy. I knew better from travels with my mom. Travel is a priority for me for the time I spend with my children, and for the perspective I know they will gain. So for me, it's actually not a privilege - it's a choice, and it's my choice to make.

 

It was never a problem for me to miss school when I was growing up. I have a feeling that all the hassles parents are having now have more to do with red-tape and finances than what's really best for the children anyway. (Then again, I come from a city where kids miss school to go on auditions with no problem!)

 

Some people think it's detrimental to home school a child. Some think it's detrimental to send them to public school. I don't really understand why some people think that because they have an opinion - that's what's best for everyone.

 

My best to all,

Mia

[Kerry's Girls]

xxxx

[miptjc57]

You are not a bad parent. Do what you have to do. The principal will get over it and cannot prove anything. Tell them you changed your mind and are going to stay in the USA. That is your business.

[CanadianTwosome]

An excused absence can cover many things such as illness, a doctor's appointment, death in the family and anything beyond a parent's control. An unexcused absence is taking a vacation or participating in a personal activity unrelated to the school.

 

As for those who say you need travel to make you a well rounded individual, gee, I'm sorry I don't agree. What about those who have familes who cannot afford to take cruises or travel? What about those from single parent families who cannot do such things? Are these unfortunates any less of a well-rounded person? Travel is a priviledge and not an individual right and while it does enhance a person's life experience, it in no way provides the free pass to living a more well-rounded life. If that were the case, our country would be filled with a lot of poorly rounded individuals because in the scheme of things, a vast majority of our population does not participate in the luxury travels that those on these boards have the privilege of doing.

 

First, I'd like to really thank you, Tracie, for just saying that you don't agree and not telling me I'm outright wrong. It's nice to be able to share opinions with someone who is just expressing their ideas without expecting me to change mine. :)

 

I want to answer your questions now regarding my opinions about how a person becomes a well-rounded individual. Sadly, I have to say that yes, I believe that the unfortunate people you refer to may be less well-rounded than others. (I should mention, too, that I'm from a single parent family - my mother budgeted tightly all year so that we could travel) That doesn't mean that they won't be responsible, contributing members of society. When I think of someone as 'well-rounded', I think of a person who is able to converse on just about any subject; that has knowledge in a wide array of areas, and that has supplemented their academic education with real life experience in numerous areas of interest. This is not to be confused with 'well educated' or 'well mannered' or 'well read'... all those things are just parts of 'well rounded'.

 

My husband is an excellent example of what I consider well-rounded. The only travelling he was able to do as a child was through his involvement with bands and cadets because his parents were not in a position to do so themselves. He was able to travel throughout much of Canada, as well as to some of the states, including visiting Hawaii on a naval ship. In addition, he also learned to sail and to make/repair boats, he is a gunsmith, tactical shooter, and game hunter, he scuba dives (did his open water dive in November in one of our lakes and all I can say is BRRRRRRR), he plays trumpet, piano, guitar, bass, and can pick up assorted other instruments and create sounds that aren't horrible, he is very well read, can build a computer from a toothpick and an elastic band (okay, not quite, but he can build them from scratch), and then program it... well, the list can go on and on. (yes, I love him dearly!)

 

I can compare him to another fellow I know that came from a very well to do family. His parents didn't spend a lot of time with him or his siblings, and didn't encourage him to pursue much... in fact, they didn't encourage him at all. He didn't complete high school and didn't have any particular hobbies or interests (still doesn't as far as I know). He is someone I do not consider to be well-rounded at all.

 

So... as I said, I can't comment on whether or not a person coming from a less priviledged environment will develop into a well-rounded individual. I think it depends much more on the parents and what they do to contribute to their child's life than it does how much they have to spend on it. I don't think that travel is the ONLY contributing factor to a person becoming well rounded, but I do think that if a parent can provide this experience for a child, it will be an important one.

 

Unfortunately, we live in an extremely unbalanced world. It's true that not everyone can afford things like cruise vacations, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't provide them for my child, whenever and however I can. Hopefully, with the right encouragement from their parents, children from less able environments will become more able to gain the experience when they are old enough to provide for themselves, or can find other ways as my husband did. It's never too late to become as well-rounded an individual as you can if you have an interest in doing so. I learn new things every day, and I'm looking forward to our upcoming trip because we will be visiting places I've never seen and doing things I've never done.

 

Again, these are all only my opinions. I see the world based on my own personal life experiences, and I parent according to how I myself was raised and what my personal opinions are about what is important. I enjoy sharing my point of view not in an attempt to change anyone else's, but because to me, another part of being a well-rounded individual myself is making every effort to understand the people around me and their perspectives as well.

 

Cheers!

[TennisLover]

Weekends and summers and school vacations were for play and fun.........during school we had to do our homework when we got home from school....

 

I just have to comment on this. I don't judge what people do - take their kids out or not. I wish I took them out more when they were younger, but now that they are in HS and MS, we cruise over holiday break (Presidents Week).

 

This doesn't always work either. In Feb 07, my DD (9th grade) was given a group project to do over the break. Of course no one would be her partner because she was going to be inaccessible. There were a lot of tears over that. She ended up doing it on her own when we got back from our cruise.

 

We get summer projects and vacation projects. This kills me. My kids are honors students in accelerated classes. Do they need to do a reading project over the summer so they don't "forget" anything? When is family time?

 

At open school night last month, the math teacher proudly explained how she gives HW everyday, on weekends, on holidays -- all the time. I raised my hand and said that while I was fine with everyday HW during the week and on weekends, I didn't understand why she gave HW on holidays. I even went so far to (nicely) ask if she worked on holidays.

 

I am willing to pay more to cruise with my kids on holiday time. If they miss one day because of flights, I would hope the school would understand. They probably wouldn't, but as parents, we have to make these decisions.

[sas80]

OMG! Is this thread still alive!?

 

Wow!

[Patinthehat]

To the OP: I think it is completely unfair that they did not let you take out your child. It's GRADE ONE, for god's sake! I have never heard something so ridiculous... I commend you for your determination.

 

In Canada, or at least Ontario, it is not that big of a deal at all to miss school... just get your assignments from the teachers before you leave.

[notentirelynormal]

Well said Canadian Twosome!

[rubegoddess]

All I can say, as a former teacher, is that your child misses more than "book work" when he/she misses a week of school. Not all of it can be made up or taken with you. I also would NOT, ever again, prepare missed work for a student to take on a vacation. I did it too many times only to hear that the student lost it, forgot it, or just didn't have time to do it. You should all know it's a huge pain and inconvenience to ask a teacher for work ahead of time. Most of what you get will be busy work... it won't be what the student actually missed because that stuff hasn't been planned/prepared yet. And if you insist on asking for work ahead of time... do you child's teacher a favor and ask at least a week in advance. I'd like to know how many times I recieved a note on a Thursday or Friday asking for the next week's work because a student isn't going to be in school. In order to do this, I would have to give up my 20 minute lunch break. Yeah, that makes a teacher real happy with you.

 

If you choose to take your child out of school for a family vacation then know that there are consequences... your child will miss part of their education and your school may hold you accountable. And the argument "then your family can never take a vacation" doesn't hold water with me. Vacations are not something you have to do. It's a choice. From a teacher's point of view: Either take them during school vacation periods or don't take them.

 

Very well said. Bravo!

[PJBUCHEIT]

Oh I'm so mad!

 

I wrote this lovely letter to the Principal of my 1st grader's school, requesting Independent Study for next week, so the school would still receive funding, and asking the teacher to send home her work, etc.

 

I just heard from the Principal. Los Angeles Unified School District will not authorize Independent Study or excuse her absence because we are going out of the country! If we stayed in the country it would be authorized. So because I was honest about what I was doing (taking a family vacation cruise to Mexico), and not lying and saying it was a work-related thing, which they do excuse, or just calling her in sick every day, she will be considered truant!:eek:

 

I said to the Principal, "So I would have been better off just calling her in sick every day?" The Principal said that with a 5 day absence they require a doctor's note. Well I could take her to school on Monday morning (we drive to the port, and it's only an hour and a half from our home), and then pick her up after an hour or so. She will not be considered absent for that day, thus only a 4 day absence - no doctor's note required.

 

I hate lying, but I just don't understand what the heck the differentiation is between a vacation in the U.S. and a vacation outside of the U.S. If I pulled her out for a week to go to Sea World, Magic Mountain, Disneyland and Universal Studios it would be excused, but a cruise to Catalina and Ensenada is not! I don't get it!!!:confused:

 

Although I am SO tempted to lie, and send her to school for an hour on Monday, and then just call her in sick every day, that would also require telling my DD to lie about where she was ("Mommy canceled the cruise and I got sick and stayed home") - which I just will not do.

 

This just sucks. I will suffer the consequences (the Truant letter), because I know my DD's attendance is otherwise great, and she's a good student, but I'm really angry about being penalized for being honest.

 

Some all most simillar happened to our family. I was honest with my two oldest daughters high school attendence clerk. I call the Friday before we left to say that they would be out all of the following week. At this time she said NOTHING to me that if they missed school they would be getting a Saturday school for each day that they missed. For that matter, non of the teacher told my girls this either. They all had none for months that the girls were going on this trip. They even were given there weeks worth of school work. But not one person from this school said a word to any of us regarding the Saturday schools. So yes, when we got home that first Monday back to school, they were called into the office and given 5 Saturday schools in a row. I was very upset. But did no good. They had to serve them. So now I only take them on vacation times. They were given 5 truancies.

[viper88]

Where I teach we have a vacation policy. All vacations forms must be turned into the office at least 5 school days before the first absence. If not, then all days missed will be unexcused. If the days missed are unexcused, then the student will receive zeros for all graded homework, quizzes, test and projects.

 

Everyone who wants to take their student out of school make sure you know and understand their policies about missing school. It will save you headaches in long run.

[CanadianTwosome]

See, now that's a reasonable policy. You have to give advance notice - just like with a job - and if you don't, then you're penalized - just like with a job.

[Warm Breezes]

See, now that's a reasonable policy. You have to give advance notice - just like with a job - and if you don't, then you're penalized - just like with a job.

This is like our policy. We need to let the school know 2 weeks ahead of time. 1 week ahead of time they give the child a paper to give to the teachers to write down the homework they will need to do. They do have a limit on how many days can be taken off a semester (I'm not sure what that is though).

 

This works great most of the time. We did run into problems last year when DS was in 7th grade. This was his worst year for homework (2-5 hours a night for a straight A student). When he sent his sheet around to the teachers for missing 3 days before Christmas break, only a couple of them gave him his homework ahead of time. I tried to schedule the cruise so it fell during Christmas break but the school changed its schedule after I booked the cruise. Most of the teachers waited until he came back from Christmas break to give him his missed work. So instead of being able to make up his work when we returned from our cruise and he still had a week of holiday left when he could have gotten it done, he had to make up the majority of his work when classes started again on top of doing his already heavy load of 2-5 hours per night. He was not a happy camper for the next week.

 

This year he is in 8th grade and will miss 2 days before Thanksgiving. I let his teachers know last night at teacher conferences and none of them had a problem. His science teacher wants him to bring back something for the class related to Earth Sciences and his Health teacher said he needed to do 30 minutes of active activities each day (not a problem for DS). His English teacher wants him to work on his reading project by reading his book. No problem since we will be driving from MI to FL. He will have plenty of time to read. This year he has had maybe 2 hours worth of homework all year so far (still getting straight A's). I don't know why they can't do something to even that out more. He was even warned by teachers and students that the 7th grade was going to be the worst year for homework so its not like they don't know it is an issue.

 

DD is in 5th grade and is following the same procedure this year as DS since she is now in middle school. I talked to her teacher last night at conferences and she had no problems with DD missing the two days either(she is an A/B+ student).

 

It can work out when everyone works together. Family time is just as important as school time even if that is the only time you can make a vacation work for your family.

[Erwin Family @ Sea]

dont let school get in the way of an education. To assume that an education is only had in the classroom is both short sighted and sad. Perhaps those that poo poo the idea of taking kids out of school to go on a cruise have other motives!

[windy city escapee]

I'm so surprised to hear of strange rules about "in the country/out of the country" that they have in California. We live in Illinois, and have never had a problem taking our kids out of school, but that may all change next year in Jr. High, and definitely in High School. I do know of a friend who recieved a "truancy letter" after a vacation. When she called to inquire about it, she was told that it was a formality to recieve such a letter after 5 days of absences, so hopefully that is all yours is too.

 

As for the comments about travel as its own learning experience, maybe I could pass on a recommendation from our past Kindergarten teacher. The first time we took our son out of school, and I asked for homework, our Kindergarten teacher made up a book with a page for each day of vacation, and she asked that he write a journal, draw a picture, whatever about what we did that day. We also got a library book of Florida seashells to learn about them and the creatures that live in them and my son brought home a seashell for each child in his class. Even older kids can keep a travel journal. Since then we have added to this tradition. The first time our kids went on a cruise, we got books about each island or country and it's history that we read on the way, so the kids were learning on vacation. We also make sure we exchange some dollars for the local currency everywhere we go, and the kids learn from that too. 2 years ago on a beach in Roatan, Honduras, there were small children selling goods on the beach - what a learning experience that proved to be! By the end of the day, my parents had bought them lunch, our kids were playing with them and learning about what it's like to live in a whole different part of the world where poverty is abundant. They still talk about those little kids who had to help provide income for their families!

 

So as much as I hate to disrupt their schedule at school, I also think travel is another form of learning, if we choose to make it so. And ideally, we would all wait until school breaks to take vacation, but we all know that travel usually doubles in price during those times, and for some that would make trips impossible. Travel is a special time when a family gets to reconnect with each other, so have a great time!

[lddam]

 

That's a rather provocative statement. Care to elaborate?

[Erwin Family @ Sea]

That's a rather provocative statement. Care to elaborate?

 

Be happy to. IMHO, many of those that encourage parents not to take their kids out of school are the same folks that only cruise during non peak times i.e. during the regular school year. Thats to say that they prefer not to cruise with children at all. They have that right. I just find it odd that an educator of all people fails to see the educational value to travel. Not all education need take place within the confides of the classroom. One could argue that we are obligated to travel,in that ignorance breeds fear. Had more of the current establishment traveled more as a youth, we as a nation may have a different view of the world around us.

If you dont want to cruise with kids, Dont. There are plenty of cruise lines that cater to adult without young children. Just please dont use that tired education argument, it holds no water. Again, thats just one Dads opinion.

[MEcruzr]

Since I'm one of the posters who does not believe cruises are a suitable excuse for missing school... let me say that HONESTLY, my opinion has nothing to do with decreasing the number of kids on a ship. I'm an educator (elementary and special ed certified). Therefore, I believe that what goes on in the classroom IS important. I also take my cruises during school vacations... both because of my choice of work AND because I won't take my kids out of school to cruise. So I choose to cruise during the times when there are traditionally MORE kids onboard. I happen to like that, myself. ;)

 

Please don't assume that those of us who speak out against taking kids out of school for a family vacation just don't want to be around these kids. Nor do I believe that travel isn't important... it IS. I just think we need to prioritize education for our kids. When you take them out of school for a cruise, you're telling them that something else is more important than school. Maybe these parents believe a cruise is... I don't know. I've certainly met parents who think sports are more important than school. LOL

[Erwin Family @ Sea]

Since I'm one of the posters who does not believe cruises are a suitable excuse for missing school... let me say that HONESTLY, my opinion has nothing to do with decreasing the number of kids on a ship. I'm an educator (elementary and special ed certified). Therefore, I believe that what goes on in the classroom IS important. I also take my cruises during school vacations... both because of my choice of work AND because I won't take my kids out of school to cruise. So I choose to cruise during the times when there are traditionally MORE kids onboard. I happen to like that, myself. ;)

 

Please don't assume that those of us who speak out against taking kids out of school for a family vacation just don't want to be around these kids. Nor do I believe that travel isn't important... it IS. I just think we need to prioritize education for our kids. When you take them out of school for a cruise, you're telling them that something else is more important than school. Maybe these parents believe a cruise is... I don't know. I've certainly met parents who think sports are more important than school. LOL

 

fair enough :)

[CanadianTwosome]

So much in life is about balance. Education and life experience, in my opinion, are two parts of development that MUST be in balance - too much focus on either will actually make it less effective rather than moreso. I also believe that as individuals, we have the right to make choices for ourselves. As children, our most important 'job' is to attend school and do our best in our studies. As adults, we have jobs to earn income. In both cases, with the exception of self employment, we are expected to follow a schedule set by someone else. Even in the case of self employment, our schedule is often dictated by others. If those work and school schedules worked for us all the time, that would be wonderful, but in the case of our family, it isn't the case. So, since we consider travel important, we take advantage of it when we are able, and we set the best example possible of what to do when you need to be away from your commitment (job or school).

 

I keep seeing posts saying that people should just schedule their vacations during school holidays, but that just isn't possible for everyone. If it were, the world would shut its doors every holiday and there would be no businesses open, no restaurants, no shops... nothing, because everyone would have the time off. In the real world, though, someone has to work while others have that time off. Some of those people are parents. When I see the statement 'travel only during school holidays' I can't help but be reminded of another suggestion... 'Let them eat cake'. :p

[lddam]

Be happy to. IMHO, many of those that encourage parents not to take their kids out of school are the same folks that only cruise during non peak times i.e. during the regular school year. Thats to say that they prefer not to cruise with children at all."

 

I don't see how you can make the leap to judgment that just because folks cruise during non peak times that it follows that they prefer not to cruise with children at all. Most that I've met choose to travel during non peak times for a host of reasons including: more economical, fewer crowds at tourists sites, more comfortable weather, more convenient in terms of timing, plane flights, etc. In fact, seems to me to be many of the same reasons alluded to in this thread as to why parents choose to travel during school sessions.

 

 

"They have that right. I just find it odd that an educator of all people fails to see the educational value to travel. Not all education need take place within the confides of the classroom."

 

I don't think it accurate to conclude that those of us who think it improper to take students out of school for vacation purposes fail "to see the educational value to travel." I, for one, acknowledge the tremendous educational value to be gained from travel. It is obvious that large numbers of parents posting on these boards are investing a great deal of time and effort to ensure an optimum learning experience for their children, and I applaud those efforts. However, in my mind I make a distinction between formal education and informal learning experiences, no matter how well the latter be constructed. In the case of the former, an educational system is a social institution with identified goals, objectives, curriculum with a scope and sequence, a published calendar, and is supported by public taxation. Travel, no matter how much it broadens one's mind, is an informal educational experience, and in my opinion (is that better, CanadianTwosome?), ought not to be had at the expense of the formal educational program.

 

 

"Just please dont use that tired education argument, it holds no water."

 

Simply identifying the education argument as "tired" and holding "no water" is an oversimplification of a complex issue and fails to recognize that the basic issue in question is the conflict between social responsibility and individual perogative.

 

Dave of ...

[Erwin Family @ Sea]

With regards to non peak times- I make no leaps of judgement, only that the possibility exist. Having said that, Your points are well taken and I appreciate your well reasoned discourse.

[Cruisin' Chick]

I just have to comment on this. I don't judge what people do - take their kids out or not. I wish I took them out more when they were younger, but now that they are in HS and MS, we cruise over holiday break (Presidents Week).

 

This doesn't always work either. In Feb 07, my DD (9th grade) was given a group project to do over the break. Of course no one would be her partner because she was going to be inaccessible. There were a lot of tears over that. She ended up doing it on her own when we got back from our cruise.

 

We get summer projects and vacation projects. This kills me. My kids are honors students in accelerated classes. Do they need to do a reading project over the summer so they don't "forget" anything? When is family time?

 

At open school night last month, the math teacher proudly explained how she gives HW everyday, on weekends, on holidays -- all the time. I raised my hand and said that while I was fine with everyday HW during the week and on weekends, I didn't understand why she gave HW on holidays. I even went so far to (nicely) ask if she worked on holidays.

 

I am willing to pay more to cruise with my kids on holiday time. If they miss one day because of flights, I would hope the school would understand. They probably wouldn't, but as parents, we have to make these decisions.

 

 

I've seen an increase in giving out assignments over winter and spring break as well as providing a workbook to work on during the summer. And yet, we parents are told not to arrange any trips for our kids except during the breaks! So if the family goes on a trip when school's out, they are lugging along school books so that the children won't get penalized.

 

During this summer, I didn't bug my daughter about doing this workbook as many of the activities she chose to do on her own involved reading (she actually started reading the Harry Potter series and she had a featured role in a musical so she memorized the entire script). She even decided to watch a Shakespeare play on video that she borrowed from the library.

 

I was thrilled when her current teacher explained on Back to School night that she tries not to assign weekend homework. She told us that as a child of divorce parents she valued spending time with her parents. From what I understand one or two other teachers in the same grade level hand out weekend assignments. Surely, a couple of days away from the math book won't cause the child to forget their lessons.

[funkylady]

Just wanted to add my opinion! This has been an interesting debate! Here in England we get whacked with really high prices if we want to take the children on holiday in the normal vacation periods. It is therefore reasonable, in my estimation, to take them out of school for 1/2 weeks in a year. They can soon catch up with any homework and meanwhile they have a whole bag of new experiences plus it doesn't hurt their parents pocket. We have the added advantage (if we want to justify our upcoming Eastern Mediteranean cruise) that my eldest daughter is taking History G.C.S.E and is learning about Ancient Greeks, Egyptians etc.

Her school has given us permission-but you have to fill in a holiday request form in good time. However, some schools in England flatly refuse permission for any holidays during term-time and will fine you even.

Classroom-based learning can be sooo 2-dimensional. Let the kids get out and experience the wider world (ps. I used to be a primary teacher!). :)

[Justcat]

Okay I'm going to be honest - I haven't had kids in the school system here very long (only Kindergarteners) but I can remember my parents taking me out of school (Not that long ago - graduated in 2001) for a week at a time no problem (before no child left behind)

 

We are taking my boys out for one day in January (Thanks to MLK day - which we didn't know when we planned the cruise :cool: talk about luck)

and the only thing the teacher said was "they'll have great show and tells the following week"

 

I think this depends on the school/principal/teacher as well as the county. But honestly if Disney and Universal can be considered a field trip for school - A cruise the the Bahamas, Mexico, Caribbean or anywhere else that they'll learn about Culture, Science, Art, etc should be considered educational too.