I'm not sure I "get" formal night

[mamaofami]

Are you sure it's dead? - I mean really dead, not playing opossum. Love the pics, BTW.

 

It never stays dead for very long.

[babyher]

It never stays dead for very long.

 

 

 

He's like the parrot in the Monty Python skit

 

 

"He's not dead, he's just resting" *LOL*

[Boytjie]

He's like the parrot in the Monty Python skit

 

 

"He's not dead, he's just resting" *LOL*

 

The horse is not dead! Everytime he hits it it moves. :D

[mikjr]

I have to agree with Linda (the OP). What's the whole point of "formal" night????

 

 

MORE photographs... and the opportunity for the cruiseline to make a TON of money off of them!!

 

Ohhh... and let's not forget the TUX rentals and corsages, etc...

[pipedreams62]

MORE photographs... and the opportunity for the cruiseline to make a TON of money off of them!!

 

Ohhh... and let's not forget the TUX rentals and corsages, etc...

 

 

You Mean the cruise lines are actually in this business to make money?

 

The next thing you know they'll want us to pay to dine in their specialty restaurant,buy drinks and purchase shore excursions.

[OTRlady]

Your rationalizations are yours, but it seems that many others are able to comply with the requests. You may feel justified in making the choices you make, but I find it an act of hubris to expect others to support your choices, especially when many others choose to support the spirit of the request. I have no doubt that you dress better than some that meet the letter of the request, but using their slovenliness to justify your lack of compliance is simply an expression of selfishness, IMO. Given that there are venues where this is a non-issue, I fail to understand the insistence of some, yourself included, that expect to be accepted based on the substandard choices you make. It's not as if the minimum expectations of dress are a big secret, suddenly sprung on you unawares and taking you by surprise.

 

I understand that you don't get what I'm saying.

 

Our lack of compliance is based on physical issues that aren't resolved by any of the arguments presented by those who say we should all have no problem complying. It is not a matter of hubris or slovenliness or desire to be accepted by others. The so-called alternatives are not a viable option for us for disability reasons. I just wanted to make the point that not everybody who chooses not to follow the dress code is doing it just to be stubborn.

 

We are simply trying to get the food and dining room service/experience we paid for in our cruise fare, without making a dinner into a potential medical issue.

 

As I said, we do not attend any of the other events requiring formal dress, such as the Captain's parties, supper clubs, large production shows, formal night photos, cocktail lounges, etc. I think the rules there are fine, because those are optional activities. Eating is not an optional activity, and I just think that the definition of what constitutes formal wear for men is too narrow if it is used to preclude a person from doing so in the only viable venue available.

[Boytjie]

and I just think that the definition of what constitutes formal wear for men is too narrow if it is used to preclude a person from doing so in the only viable venue available.

 

At some point changing the definition a lot renders the definition meaningless; it is no longer 'formal' but becomes 'casual'.

[Stock Cop]

 

I gather that you don't like to dress up??

 

Truthfully - maybe you should consider cruising on NCL for your future cruises. JMO

 

 

Why does everyone feel so obligated to take a punch at NCL?

 

If you havn't tried it lately, don't be so quick to judge.

 

Rich:cool: :cool:

[Boytjie]

Why does everyone feel so obligated to take a punch at NCL?

 

If you havn't tried it lately, don't be so quick to judge.

 

Rich:cool: :cool:

 

What punch was taken there? NCL is causal dress all the time. Stating that fact isn't a judgement against the quality of the cruise line. :rolleyes:

[OTRlady]

Phew, that's a lot of issues... OK, I will jump in with a couple of observations and hopefully they are not seen as judgments.

 

Dress shirts are usually bought by neck size and sleeve length. For me neck size is the most important since I need to be able to button it to wear a tie when called for. Sleeve length is also important. That does sometimes affect the look of the rest of the shirt since the correct neck/sleeve size may end up being a shirt that is way too big in the body.

 

There are places that sell suit separates: pants and jackets. Recently I even saw it in Target. I have an issue with off-the-rack suits: when the jacket fits the pants would be way too big for me and tailoring can only be done so much before the whole thing gets ruined. Buying separates is an option.

 

As for food trays being left in the corridors: that's just bad. IIRC on our last cruise they may have sent out a note to everyone not to leave trays outside the door but to call room service to have it removed or leave it in the room. We had some rough seas and those suckers were moving around! And it's not a pretty site to look at someone's dirty dishes, and it is a danger to others.

 

Thanks for the suggestions; I don't consider them judgements at all. Unfortunately, we've already tried these without great success.

 

DH's neck size is 21", and when we buy for that, the body size is about twice what it needs to be. I don't worry about sleeve length, because I can custom order short sleeves if I need to, but the neck size has to be special-ordered and then if the rest of the fit isn't right, you can't send it back, you can't get it altered, and you're out a hundred dollars. We also need extra long ties, which are equally difficult and expensive to come by in colors and patterns to go with the suit we do have. So, we have a couple 19" spread neck collars and extenders that can be used in a pinch, but wearing them for any major length of time significantly affects his ability to breathe because they are really too tight. The tie is just an added insult, not really the major problem, but I can understand why he refuses to wear one, if it requires getting that neck button closed in order to do it.

 

Because DH is president of a prominent local non-profit, we did invest in a suit a couple years ago. We had to pay over $800 to get it (not counting the shirts and ties to go with), because DH's coat size and pants size are so different, and only very few brands actually had both items in the same style and material. It is a fine wool bland, because that's about the only dark material available in his coat size. Even though the matching pants are lined, DH breaks out in a rash from wearing them because of a sensitivity to the wool. Even then, we had to make significant alterations to the pants to get them to sort of fit, and you're right--it kind of ruins the look. But for high profile events that we don't have the option of not attending, he WILL tough it out. He just can't eat anything while wearing the shirt and tie. ;)

 

We are not wealthy people. We work hard all year long to be able to afford one cruise. We cannot justify the cost of having a custom-made suit for two formal nights per year, in order to get a dinner that we paid for in our cruise fare. If the formal wear department on any of the cruise lines actually stocked clothing he could wear for a reasonable price, I would rent it, but they don't.

 

Re: the dishes in the hall. Yes, it's bad, and even when the cruise staff ask people not to put them there, they do it anyway, as if the ship was a common hotel. Unfortunately, the hallways on the ships are only about 1/3 or 1/2 as wide as those in a hotel. We cannot walk sighted guide because of the dishes. Once DH accidentally kicked over a glass, which broke and cut his ankle. When we politely asked the occupant of the room next door to avoid putting them on the side next to our cabin so that this wouldn't happen again, the person--presumably for spite--put them directly in front of our door the next time, so that we would have tripped and fallen had I not opened the door first and seen them there. I guess the lesson we should have learned is that blind people are supposed to stay home and not ruin other people's vacations by our inability to adapt to social convention.

[Boytjie]

Once DH accidentally kicked over a glass, which broke and cut his ankle. When we politely asked the occupant of the room next door to avoid putting them on the side next to our cabin so that this wouldn't happen again, the person--presumably for spite--put them directly in front of our door the next time, so that we would have tripped and fallen had I not opened the door first and seen them there. I guess the lesson we should have learned is that blind people are supposed to stay home and not ruin other people's vacations by our inability to adapt to social convention.

 

Oh, I would have been so tempted to create a leftover food door decoration for them! But that would just have meant more work for the steward.

[OTRlady]

At some point changing the definition a lot renders the definition meaningless; it is no longer 'formal' but becomes 'casual'.

 

I don't disagree, but I think exceptions are made all the time. For instance, on a previous cruise, I saw a lovely older Japanese couple dressed in their country's traditional formal garb--which did not include a jacket and tie for the man. It was completely fine. Clergymen are another exception that comes to mind.

 

I'm suggesting that either the acceptable versions of "formal" need to be better defined to take into account reasonable exceptions to a jacket and tie for men, or the letter of the policy should be uniformly enforced for all, not just for those who look like they might be trying to break the rules.

 

Alternatively, perhaps a more special venue could be made available to those who DO follow the policy to the letter. Maybe for that night, you have open seating in the dining rooms, so that the hostesses can seat less formally attired persons in a completely different part of the room. Perhaps there is something that could be done only in the more formal part of the room that would give those folk the special ambience they are looking for, like a champagne toast or special hors d'oevre.

 

I think there may be creative solutions, but we're going nowhere with this all or nothing attitude toward each other.

[Boytjie]

Alternatively, perhaps a more special venue could be made available to those who DO follow the policy to the letter. Maybe for that night, you have open seating in the dining rooms, so that the hostesses can seat less formally attired persons in a completely different part of the room. Perhaps there is something that could be done only in the more formal part of the room that would give those folk the special ambience they are looking for, like a champagne toast or special hors d'oevre.

 

I think there may be creative solutions, but we're going nowhere with this all or nothing attitude toward each other.

 

That is a creative solution but I don't think it would be practical. The traditional dining folk would not be happy with open seating and the "unformal" folk would be unhappy about not getting the special hors d'oevre or champagne and they paid good money to be on the crurse and deserve it too.

 

:D

[navybankerteacher]

Sorry to intrude on your thread but I have to say that I've never seen anyone dressed like this for dinner in 4 NCL cruises. I'm not saying that you haven't. I'm just saying that I have not. Many people dress up on the Dress Up or Not night.

 

Specifically: Norwegian Majesty - Boston - Bermuda, August 2005. The display may have been unique to the Boston area passengers, but that's how it was. In spite of that, I am sailing on the Dream this August -- the destination is worth the risk of there being a comparable crowd. Except for that, there is no way I would sail NCL again; Freestyle seems to be taken as meaning "no one can tell me how to dress".

[OTRlady]

That is a creative solution but I don't think it would be practical. The traditional dining folk would not be happy with open seating and the "unformal" folk would be unhappy about not getting the special hors d'oevre or champagne and they paid good money to be on the crurse and deserve it too.:D

 

You're probably right. But, the way I see it, your cruise fare includes dinner in the dining room each night. It doesn't necessarily include champagne or specific food items. And while you don't necessarily get the table or waiter you are accustomed to with open seating , you are in the dining room, with the full regular menu, at your regular time, and with actual table mates and table service. I remember the days when your assigned table and waiter was yours even at breakfast and lunch, and I don't necessarily love open seating, but I think it is a reasonable alternative that provides most of the same benefits, if not the same atmosphere.

 

Besides to tie back to the OP's question, what makes formal night different besides the clothes? Maybe, if it's that important to a large portion of the cruising clientele, something extra can be done to make it different and special enough that those people actually get more of what they're looking for and don't have to share it with those unwilling to pay the admission price of wearing the clothes. I wouldn't begrudge them that at all, because I know that it's fun for some people to put on the ritz. Why not give them the ritz, then?

 

It's only one idea, but MIL runs a restaurant, and from what I know of the business, I don't think it would actually be that impractical--if they wanted to do it. I'm sure there are other ideas equally creative, and even more practical. I just wish someone would think them up.

[DesertDogs]

OTRlady

 

Situations like yours are reasons why I would support "Formal Optional" nights. For those that chose to dress formally, they may do so, for others like yourself, suits are not required. I think this meets most peoples expectations.

[Opinions]

Alternatively, perhaps a more special venue could be made available to those who DO follow the policy to the letter. Maybe for that night, you have open seating in the dining rooms, so that the hostesses can seat less formally attired persons in a completely different part of the room.

 

During a recent 24 day Med cruise on the Zuiderdam we had a Formal-Optional night in the dining room...One had the choice of dressing either formally or smart casual...There was no segregating of passengers according to dress...It seemed to work well in my opinion...Perhaps we will see more of this on HAL in the future.

[debmkay]

and here we go!!!!!!!!!!

[cf_chuck]

I understand that you don't get what I'm saying.

 

Our lack of compliance is based on physical issues that aren't resolved by any of the arguments presented by those who say we should all have no problem complying. It is not a matter of hubris or slovenliness or desire to be accepted by others. The so-called alternatives are not a viable option for us for disability reasons. I just wanted to make the point that not everybody who chooses not to follow the dress code is doing it just to be stubborn.

 

We are simply trying to get the food and dining room service/experience we paid for in our cruise fare, without making a dinner into a potential medical issue.

 

As I said, we do not attend any of the other events requiring formal dress, such as the Captain's parties, supper clubs, large production shows, formal night photos, cocktail lounges, etc. I think the rules there are fine, because those are optional activities. Eating is not an optional activity, and I just think that the definition of what constitutes formal wear for men is too narrow if it is used to preclude a person from doing so in the only viable venue available.

 

For the sake of discussion, let me stipulate to your conclusions that alternative venues are not an option and compliance with the formal dress request is not possible, due to health and disability reasons.

 

Under these stipulations, it seems most reasonable to work with HAL to ensure that you can have the dining room available to you on formal nights, just to ensure that there is no enforcement of the dress code by the DR staff which would make that a problem. As an example, talking with ship services before the cruise, a confirmation letter and following it up with the DR manager before the first formal night could be a scnenario.

 

I don't intend any of my remarks to discriminate against those that have a good reason for not conforming to the request. Per my stipulations, I think your situation is a good reason.

 

However, my preference is to deal with cases such as this on an exception basis, as I think thay are rare, rather than relaxing the requested code. Should any passenger object to the DR manager and ask for the same consideration without having a good reason, the DR manager is covered and can do his / her job with integrity and without compromise, if they choose.

 

I don't see a valid reason for relaxing the requested code based on a small number of possibly valid exceptions. That is what you requested to be considered.

[sapper1]

ns

 

What do we win?

Admiring glances from every woman in the room.

[Jade13]

I understand that you don't get what I'm saying.

 

Our lack of compliance is based on physical issues that aren't resolved by any of the arguments presented by those who say we should all have no problem complying. It is not a matter of hubris or slovenliness or desire to be accepted by others. The so-called alternatives are not a viable option for us for disability reasons. I just wanted to make the point that not everybody who chooses not to follow the dress code is doing it just to be stubborn.

 

We are simply trying to get the food and dining room service/experience we paid for in our cruise fare, without making a dinner into a potential medical issue.

 

As I said, we do not attend any of the other events requiring formal dress, such as the Captain's parties, supper clubs, large production shows, formal night photos, cocktail lounges, etc. I think the rules there are fine, because those are optional activities. Eating is not an optional activity, and I just think that the definition of what constitutes formal wear for men is too narrow if it is used to preclude a person from doing so in the only viable venue available.

 

Can you explain to me a medical reason why a man could not wear a black suit (Ok, I understand a tie could be too constraining around the neck), or a women could not wear a dress or pant suit (with flats), whether or not they are using a walker or in a wheelchair. I am just trying to understand.

 

How does dinner become a potential medical issue?

 

Thanks!

[mamaofami]

I can't wear heels of any kind because of back issues, but I am always dressed from head to toe according to code. Just in flats.

[OTRlady]

Can you explain to me a medical reason why a man could not wear a black suit (Ok, I understand a tie could be too constraining around the neck), or a women could not wear a dress or pant suit (with flats), whether or not they are using a walker or in a wheelchair. I am just trying to understand.

 

How does dinner become a potential medical issue?

 

Thanks!

 

DH cannot swallow with the shirt button closed and tie on; after a couple hours he begins to have breathing problems from the constriction. Since he is totally blind, and I am diabetic, we require table service in the dining room for dinner. He cannot go through a buffet line, and I cannot guide him and carry both trays in the buffet. Two dinners do not fit on a single tray. Normally, I would go through the lines twice while he waits at a table, but at dinner, my medcation timing is such that I don't have time to do that. I MUST eat or I will have a low blood sugar event and pass out--which can become a serious medical emergency. Under those circumstances, while I'm sure I would get treated, no one would know that blind DH is sitting somewhere else in the restaurant having no idea what had happened to me and no way to do anything about it.

 

DH is also unable to wear wool due to an allergy, which is the only dark suit material available to us.

 

The fact that the jacket has long sleeves is also an issue, but I think it would be less claustrophobic for him if it wasn't for the constriction in the neck from the shirt and tie. We bought a larger size jacket and had it altered a bit, so that the sleeves would be less constraining. But the wool material and the heat it traps only contributes to the shortness of breath, and the feeling of being "bound" escalates the anxiety already inherent in being unable to see and surrounded by obstacles.

 

He has worn and does wear a dark suit when it is really necessary and when there is no eating involved. But no one should have to feel like it's necessary to be sick in order to get dinner while on vacation.

 

I cannot wear heels because of foot problems, but luckily, the women's dress code is not so strictly stated that I can't wear flats with my evening gown. And, every color is open to me, which is good, since I look terrible in most dark colors. No, my problem with formal wear is finding a location to inject myself that I can reach and is not covered with clothes. What I usually have to do is give the injection while I'm dressing, but then I'm on a limited timeframe for getting to the food. Accounting for the time to finish dressing, get from room to dining venue, and wait in line to be seated, there is real danger in trying to do the buffet.

 

We don't have dinner in our cabin because we need a table and actual chairs for DH to orient himself. These have to be removable so they are not a trip hazard at other times in the cabin. We've never been able to afford a suite, and never found a cruise line that could accommodate bringing in a table and chairs for dinner along with the food. (There is also the issue of the phone list and room service menu not being accessible, and having to come up with a cash tip, but those are only minor problems, since I am usually there to read.)

 

On 15 cruises we've never missed dinner in the dining room, and there has never been a problem with DH's formal night attire, but we have also never sailed HAL. Our upcoming HAL cruise was a replacement for one on a different line that we had to cancel. We discussed this with the TA, and we were told it should not be a problem--and I'm confident it won't be for the cruise line. I have already contacted the special needs people and we're working on a list of things.

 

Maybe not everyone's case is as much a catch-22 as ours, but I really believe that the majority of people who don't dress formally for dinner aren't doing it out of spite or a desire to be disrespectful to anyone. It saddens me that there are such zealots on both sides of the issue that we have created winners and losers. Even if I have a good reason for doing what I do, I can't explain it to the other passengers on my cruise, and they will go on assuming that I'm selfish and disrespectful--and communicating their disapproval in hurtful ways. No one likes to be disliked--even by strangers. So I am a loser on HAL, even if I "get my way."

 

As the lady with the formally dressed and well-behaved baby said, the looks can make you very uncomfortable, even as you try to find a way to balance your needs with other people's expectations. So maybe an earlier poster was right; it is about acceptance to some extent. If I had realized before booking this cruise how strongly other HAL patrons would feel about it, I might have looked for another vacation solution. It is true that on Carnival or RCCL or Princess, the same issues arise, but the other passengers have been much more noncommittal about it. Not until I got to the HAL board on CC did I understand that we will not fit in...ever.

[schoolinmy3]

 

He has worn and does wear a dark suit when it is really necessary and when there is no eating involved. But no one should have to feel like it's necessary to be sick in order to get dinner while on vacation.

 

Maybe not everyone's case is as much a catch-22 as ours, but I really believe that the majority of people who don't dress formally for dinner aren't doing it out of spite or a desire to be disrespectful to anyone. It saddens me that there are such zealots on both sides of the issue that we have created winners and losers. Even if I have a good reason for doing what I do, I can't explain it to the other passengers on my cruise, and they will go on assuming that I'm selfish and disrespectful--and communicating their disapproval in hurtful ways. No one likes to be disliked--even by strangers. So I am a loser on HAL, even if I "get my way."

 

As the lady with the formally dressed and well-behaved baby said, the looks can make you very uncomfortable, even as you try to find a way to balance your needs with other people's expectations. So maybe an earlier poster was right; it is about acceptance to some extent. If I had realized before booking this cruise how strongly other HAL patrons would feel about it, I might have looked for another vacation solution. It is true that on Carnival or RCCL or Princess, the same issues arise, but the other passengers have been much more noncommittal about it. Not until I got to the HAL board on CC did I understand that we will not fit in...ever.

 

I recently read another post that mentioned that there is perhaps a stronger sentiment regarding the formal dress attire on these boards than on the actual cruise itself. That may or may not be true. I don't know as this is our first cruise ever for my husband and I. We chose HAL for personal reasons (my parents emigrated on HAL with me as an infant 40 years ago this month). I had no inkling that formal wear was such an issue at the time of booking. We don't intend to participate in the formal evenings either. No disrespect intended towards those who enjoy the event. Our luggage constraints (we'll be travelling with 7 of us the week before the cruise in one vehicle plus flights) would not easily allow packing formal wear and my husband is not a formal kind of guy when on vacation. So we'll dine elsewhere for formal nights. However, I don't think anyone should be made to feel as you do, and I hope that you enjoy your cruise and do NOT let this spoil it. I have a young friend with severe auto immune issues including diabetes, asthma and IGA deficiency. Anyone that deals with these types of issues on a daily basis deserves a break!:)

 

diane

[trailercruiser]

To many times our casual night ambiance has been ruined by tuxes,dresses,suits ect... We look foward to our casual nights and then these people come into the dining room wearing formal clothing on a casual night.Everyone stares at them with disdain. It ruins the whole atmosphere of the night. Please dress appropriately on casual night as to not ruin the ambiance. You formal wearers on casual night can go to the LIDO. Don't ruin everone elses night.