Mass Market or Premium - Can You Discern?

[high seas gal]

I read with interest another thread which has since been closed by our hosts due to the personal nature of the posts. And I really wanted to express my thoughts on several topics "discussed" on that thread ... so I've started this one.

 

Having sailed with Princess (1), NCL (3), and Celebrity (1) I have observed that there are differences, but I don't think I would place Celebrity in a separate class, or even suggest that it was equivalent to lines such as Crystal, which I have researched and had relatives sail. Premium lines typically are "all-inclusive." You don't pay extra for that Coke, or wine with dinner ... it isn't necessary because the basic cost of the cruise is priced sufficiently high to cover all those costs. The premium lines don't "nickle and dime" their clientele.

 

I found the service on Celebrity, with a single exception, to be "a touch above" service we received on Princess and NCL. But I found the food to be similar. Celebrity passengers, at least on our Mercury 10/24/04 cruise, tended to be a little older than the passengers on my other cruises. The cabins on all three lines were very comparable ... and I was in a CC cabin on Mercury.

 

Clearly, at the time I booked our cruise (Feb. 2004), Celebrity was trying to price low enough to fill its ships. I believe the itinerary changes which occured with the fall 2004 Mercury sailings (from 7 days to 10 or 11 days) occured because the 7 day sailings were not selling well. So Celebrity, through pricing and cruise length was appealing to the masses. Since that time Celebrity pricing has gone through the roof, and I wonder how their bookings are doing.

 

Much has also been discussed about dress and those who do or don't dress appropriately and/or in accordance with "the rules." I guess I've reached that age in life when I've become far more thoughtful and considerate, (and less judgemental), of others. I happened to be on the Mercury 10/13/04 which caused that "hot topic" thread which is now closed. When I am enjoying dinner on any night, formal, informal or casual, it's not because of how others are dressed ... it's because of the conversation with my life partner, and/or the new friends who are seated with or around us. One of the lessons I have learned over a half-century is that you really cannot judge a book by its cover. There may be unexplained reasons why one is not in compliance with "the rules." And after all, what I wear isn't nearly as important as who I am.

 

I guess I've strayed even from my own topic, but goodness, those opinions were so very pointed. I've so enjoyed these boards and the laughs and good things I've learned from them.

[morriscats]

We were on the same cruise and so enjoyed ourselves. Cruising, for us, is a chance to get away and relax - get to spend quality time with each other and get to know others. I don't care what you are wearing - I personally don't like to "get dressed up" but that is what is recommended so we do it. Much like showing up at a fancy restaurant appropriately dressed. We were not looking at how others were dressed so did not notice anyone out of complience. Premium or mass-market? We had just gotten back from Carnival Pride and had a wonderful time. Pricing was about the same at time of booking but now Celebrity has probably outpriced us except for our scheduled cruise next October. I hope not but if that is the case I am sure we will find another line to cruise and enjoy ourselves. Please all, don't be so critical of others.

Can't wait to cruise again.

[high seas gal]

Hi Morriscats!

I'm still working on my review. I appreciated the few words you posted on the other thread! I still can't believe how hot it was in Mexico, and that "winter" seemed to arrive here in northern California while we were gone! Read you had quite a show of lightening and thunder last night!

[hajekfam]

I have heard some TA's refer to cruise lines under 4 categories - budget, mass market, premium and luxury. Under this standard Crystal, Radisson, Silverseas are classified luxury cruise lines - not premium. Celebrity and Holland America are, for example, premium; mass market examples are Royal Caribbean and Carnival.

When people refer to premium, they are not comparing Celebrity to Crystal and Radisson as they put those two in luxury. It's just a matter of your definition of the word premium and the number of categories you use to classify ships. I think that is where the hot and heavy discussions come from - just a difference of the number of classification categories between posters.

[Sky Sweet]

I have heard some TA's refer to cruise lines under 4 categories - budget, mass market, premium and luxury. Under this standard Crystal, Radisson, Silverseas are classified luxury cruise lines - not premium. Celebrity and Holland America are, for example, premium; mass market examples are Royal Caribbean and Carnival.

When people refer to premium, they are not comparing Celebrity to Crystal and Radisson as they put those two in luxury. It's just a matter of your definition of the word premium and the number of categories you use to classify ships. I think that is where the hot and heavy discussions come from - just a difference of the number of classification categories between posters.

I agree. Celebrity is a step up from the mass market cruise lines but a step below the luxury ones. We took our first Celebrity Cruise on the GTS Infinity prior to 9/11, and there was a significant difference between that cruise and the Royal Carribean one we took just a year earlier. Unfortunately, when Celebrity needed to lower prices to fill their ships after 9/11, their quality had slipped a little. In my opinion, Celebrity has been increasing their prices to recapture their original market of people who are willing to pay more for a superior cruise experience. Since there are a number of existing options for people who want the cheapest cruise available, I hope Celebrity succeeds in its efforts to be a step above the mass market with prices below the luxury lines.

[WeBeCruisin']

The "all-inclusive" aspect can be misleading. I think that only a couple of the "luxury" lines include unlimited complimentary alcohol. I have been on SeaDream Yacht Club (formerly Seabourn's Sea Goddesses) and they provided two liters of alcohol of your choice in the stateroom, and all bar drinks were free, but limited to the brands they carried. At dinner, the wine from their list was complimentary, but they also had a list of premium wines which were at an additional cost. I'm pretty sure that Seabourn does not include complimentary liquor, and I think several of the other luxury lines also do not provide that service.

[venicecruiser]

Seabourn DOES include liquor........They have an open bar policy....

 

Radisson gives you 2 bottles of liquor for your suite, wine with dinner, cocktails with dinner, and when you embark there is a chilled bottle of champagne in your suite..........

 

Both lines offer complimentary soft drinks, bottled water, specialty coffees....

[WeBeCruisin']

As for "mass-market" versus "premium" versus "luxury", I would place Celebrity, which I love, at the top end of mass market. You can almost judge the lines by their basic prices. Anything $100 and less per day could be thought of as mass-market. $300 a day would be premium, and $500 a day and above would be luxury.

 

Perhaps an easier way for me to look at it is that if I can afford it, it's mass-market. If it's out of my price range, it's premium or luxury. :)

 

Allen

[hajekfam]

What kind of stateroom are you talking about? And what itinerary? My future Celebrity cruises are above $100 a day. In fact my med cruise next year is closer to $200 per day.

And I have seen two for one deals in the past couple of years on the luxury ships that bring it down almost to your definition of mass market pricing per person

[WeBeCruisin']

My guesstimates were based upon the lowest available fare for each line. Of course you can pay up to $10,000 for a luxury suite on any of the mass-market lines. Oceania has some very appealing two-fers, but even with that discount, the price is still generally in the $300 per day range or more. If you're finding $100-a-day and under deals on premium and luxury lines, please share!

[WeBeCruisin']

Also, in general, European cruises are always more expensive than are the cruises to the Caribbean and Alaska. I had to pay almost $175 a day for a 1-A balcony on the Summit to the Baltics this summer, but that was a European itinerary. My categories were estimates based upon the most popular cruises (i.e. the Caribbean and Alaska) and were not meant to apply to every cruise itinerary in every category. The $200 you may be paying for your Mediterranean cruise is still beneath the $300 or more I estimated for a Premium line. I don't have facts or research. I was trying to give my opinion in answer to the question of how to differentiate mass-market from premium or luxury.

[benjamins]

Folks, Celebrity *is* a mass market line. It is the premium part of mass market but it is mass market, and so is HAL.

 

Premium, which could mean premium dog food or crackers, a word that is not so specifically defined, regarding today's cruise product, means a certain higher percentage of passenger space ratio and crew to passenger space ratio for similar-aged classes of ships, a certain degree higher of material comfort and furnishings, a softer onboard sell, less extreme activities, and perhaps higher level and volume of upper-level staterooms. But, premium ships of Celebrity and HAL are definitely mass market.

[cruiseyguy]

Are cruiseline distinctions simply a matter of cost, i.e., if "most" people can afford it, it is therefore mass market? With new pricing policies and conversion of most veranda staterooms on "M" class ships to CC, Celebrity's per diem rates for most staterooms will increase greatly next year. So does it then become a "premium" line? What about Crystal, which has traditionally had among the highest per diems--will it be downgraded to "premium" when many (although not most) of its per diems begin to match Celebrity's new CC per diems? Who applies these labels-the cruiselines, the TAs or the passengers?

[hajekfam]

I don't think it is just cost that determines what category a cruiseline is - I think it has to do with all of the apects - cost - appeal - ambience - etc.

Maybe instead of mass market category - it should be main stream - I have seen Carnival and Royal Caribbean referred to as main stream cruiselines.

[lstrong]

Very interesting thread! Can you tell me about your Mercury Oct 2004 cruise? We're on Mercury in Feb 2005. Thanks Laurie

[Sky Sweet]

Are cruiseline distinctions simply a matter of cost, i.e., if "most" people can afford it, it is therefore mass market? With new pricing policies and conversion of most veranda staterooms on "M" class ships to CC, Celebrity's per diem rates for most staterooms will increase greatly next year. So does it then become a "premium" line? What about Crystal, which has traditionally had among the highest per diems--will it be downgraded to "premium" when many (although not most) of its per diems begin to match Celebrity's new CC per diems? Who applies these labels-the cruiselines, the TAs or the passengers?

That is an interesting question. During the fifties and sixties, Macy's was not considered to be an upscale or trendy department store. Then during the seventies a marketing genius convinced everyone that Macy's was a West Side Bloomingdale's and people believed it. However, that success was due to changes in the product itself which then affected people's perception of it. With that said labels are affected by a combination of the product itself, how it is marketed, and how it is perceived by the general public.

[Randyk47]

From time to time on CC I've read the claims that one could book a "luxury" cruise for about the same price as a cruise on say Celebrity or HAL. Well...OK....I've tried. My TA has tried. My favorite web agency has tried. It hasn't happened yet but I'd love to find a way. Every time I do the research I end up clutching my chest (and my wallet) and calling 911. Now, maybe I'm looking at it wrong but I try to compare "apples to apples" as far as cabins and itineraries. We only book outside, verandah cabins on Celebrity or HAL so I do the same on the luxury lines. During my last go around in trying to make this happen I looked at Panama Canal cruises (either partials or full transits). I won't go into the math but the bottom line was it was basically twice the amount for a luxury line for about the same cruise. And that didn't even include air fare which is an additional plus up since most luxury lines don't sail out of US ports. Anyhow, right now it isn't happening and with Celebrity holding the line on "brochure" prices even they might be more than I'm willing to pay.

[hajekfam]

I think when you factor in the things that you do have to pay for on Celebrity or HAL that are included in the luxury line - there were times when you could get close to price - not many but it did occur.

[cruiseyguy]

Price convergence between Celebrity and the luxury lines is occurring more often, although the lines themselves make it difficult to do an "apples to apples" comparison. For example, several discounted Crystal cruises are now within Celebrity's price range (although the higher end of the range). Problem is, these cruises are mostly on the Harmony, Crystal's oldest and smallest ship and are usually for inside or window cabins (all with very small, but extremely nice, bathrooms). But the ship has its admirers and you do get the Crystal "experience," such as it is, for a Celebrity price.

[jjbko]

I have sailed on Royal Carr. once and 10 times on Celebrity and I am spoiled on Celebrity Lines. I cannot imagin any better service than we have recieved on Celebrity, but we are giving the QM2 a try next week. As I understand that is a premium line, and we will how it stands up. Also for this so called premium line, the liquor and soft drinks are not inclusive for this high priced cruise.

[Randyk47]

Cruiseguy - You pointed out exactly what I found in my research. In fact, I even got a little miffed at my long time TA about some aspects of trying to compare a royal suite on Celebrity to an inside or window cabin on Crystal. Her "about the same" and mine were not about the same. I have a hard time convincing myself and, more importantly, my wife that I should pay a upper category Celebrity price to go on a Crystal cruise and wind up in a minimum cabin. Part of the problem is that I can't bring myself to believe that the service, food and overall experience on Crystal is that much better than on Celebrity.

[Giorgi-one]

People keep mentioning HAL and Celebrity together. I was on HAL Zuiderdam last summer and, except for the Pinnacle Grill, the food/service was nowhere as good as NCL let alone Celebrity. It was extremely disappointing because we had high expectations. Note that I am not downing NCL. We have been on 5 NCL cruises and enjoyed every one. We were on Summit in January 2003 and food/service was best of any of our 14 cruises.

 

Some people on these boards do not put a high value on food (as long as there is plenty of it and they don't have to cook or clean up). I believe that food quality has to be one of the most important factors separating cruises. All the new ships are fantastic. Service is usally pretty good on most cruises. So, if you don't consider the food, how do you make a distinction between mass market, premium and luxury?

 

Note that Conde Nast had Celebrity and Princess as numbers 3 and 4 in the large ship category with HAL farther down the list.

[new_cruiser]

My guesstimates were based upon the lowest available fare for each line. Of course you can pay up to $10' date='000 for a luxury suite on any of the mass-market lines. Oceania has some very appealing two-fers, but even with that discount, the price is still generally in the $300 per day range or more. If you're finding $100-a-day and under deals on premium and luxury lines, please share![/quote']

Since you asked:

I don't know if they are still there, but Crystal - which I think everyone counts as luxury - has had some cruises on which it is just a bit over $100-a-day (about $125 a day). The itinerary didn't appeal to me as I prefer Southern Caribbean and if I was going to Key West I'd rather do land for an overnight stay than a port stop. Crystal wouldn't be my first choice because it is one of the more formal evening dress lines among the luxury. For those who like those features, it is (or was) a great deal. Our bill for things that would be included on a Crystal Cruise was around $25 a day pp on Celebrity so this looks pretty comparable to $100 a day on Celeb.

 

Oceania has some 12 days for $1999 out of Miami with free air so I'm not sure how to count that per day. Straight division is $169. If one values the "free" air as $500, then the cruise cost is about $140 a day. From what I've read, Oceania classes more as premium (very high end of the mass market) rather than luxury).

 

I don't disagree with your general statement - discounts that get the luxury lines around $250-300 a day in Europe or $200 a day in Caribbean are much more common than the ones I mention above. I'll be going on Windsurf December 12 and on Radison Diamond August 20, 2005 for about that. Radisson Seven Seas has a number of European itineraries for 2005 at about $250 a night (or $1000 more if you take "free" air). To me that would be the equivalent of $225 a night on Celebrity - a fairly modest premium.

[floridakeith]

Some people on these boards do not put a high value on food (as long as there is plenty of it and they don't have to cook or clean up). I believe that food quality has to be one of the most important factors separating cruises. All the new ships are fantastic. Service is usally pretty good on most cruises. So, if you don't consider the food, how do you make a distinction between mass market, premium and luxury? (End Quote)

 

Not being big drinkers my wife and I don't care whether all drinks are included in the cruise tariff, but we do appreciate good food and we agree that this is a way of distinguishing a true premium line. The food on our Celebritry cruise in March was outstanding, far in excess of anything we had previously enjoyed. We are going on Zuiderdam on Saturday which is our experience of HAL so we will be able to compare the two.

 

The other issue that we focus on is how noisy the ship is. Carnival and RCCL bombard you with announcements all the time. Celebrity create a more relaxed atmosphere by severely limiting announcements.

 

I agree that most of the newer ships are equally good in physical attributes, though we are not particularly keen on the often outlandish color schemes that Carnival dream up. We prefer the more sophisticated appearance of Celebrity, Princess, P&O and RCCL ships.

 

We wouldn't turn down a last minute bargain on any of the major cruise lines, but for preference we will stick to Celebrity, Princess and P&O who we define as "our" Premium lines. As for the luxury ones, well maybe if the Florida lottery comes up.....

[Giorgi-one]

floridakeith:

 

Agree with your observations. It will be interesting to hear what you think of HAL Zuiderdam. Please post review on HAL board when you get back. I also monitor that board because we have a HAL cruise booked for next August.