Mass Market or Premium - Can You Discern?

[Leejnd4]

I recently booked a Radisson 11-day Mediterranean itinerary for about $260 a day. This was just slightly more than a comparable Celebrity cruise. This was comparing a CC suite on Celeb with the least expensive cabin on the Radisson Voyager, which is in fact a balcony suite that is 50 sq. ft larger than the Celebrity CC suite. Perhaps I just got lucky, but I was pretty pleased with myself. I will say that when I first began pricing them, they sure didn't LOOK that close; but my TA was able to discount the Radisson cruise, which he couldn't do on the Celeb due to their new rules. This narrowed the gap pretty signifantly. (It also helped that the Radisson cruise was on special, already marked down 45% by the cruiseline.) As I am a wine drinker, I have no doubt that the difference in price would be negated by my bar bill on Celeb. So, it is possible!

 

I have very much enjoyed cruising on Celebrity - in fact, at this point it's the best I've experienced, my other cruising having been on RCCL. There were marked differences between the two that, in my perception, clearly illustrated the distinction between "Mass Market" vs. "Premium" (or, if you'd prefer, "High End Mass Market"). I am eager to experience a true "Luxury" line, and see what the distinctions are there.

 

Regarding food, I too would consider that to be a major aspect of how you would rate a particular line or ship. Certainly the food was much better on Celebrity than RCCL. I expect the food on Radisson to be even more so. What I've been told is that the comparison would be like eating at a very nice chain restaurant vs. fine dining at a Le Cordon Bleu or Michelin 3-Star restaurant. (In fact, one of the restaurants on Voyager IS a Le Cordon Bleu restaurant.) I have had many fabulous meals at nice chain restaurants. I have eaten at very high-end fine dining establishments maybe a handful of times (and in those few cases, I've had to select carefully to avoid cardiac arrest when presented with the check!). So to have an 11-day cruise in which I will get to experience that kind of dining every day, with no limits on what I can choose, sounds like heaven to me. But I don't think that will cause me to enjoy my dinners out at nice restaurants any less in the future. :)

 

LeeAnne

[cruiseyguy]

Another difference between Celebrity and the so-called luxury lines are the varied, even exotic, itineraries the luxury lines have, such as Tahiti, Southeast Asia, Africa and even world cruises (although HAL does these). Celebrity's itineraries, year after year, are the "same ol' same ol'." I really like Celebrity but I've just about run out of places I want to go (especially since I don't care for the Caribbean). I don't understand how some of these long-time Celebrity cruisers have managed to rack up 20 or more cruises on the line. Are they doing the same trips over and over?

[hajekfam]

For some cruisers, the ship is the destination - the ports are just extra. Once you have seen all of an island that you want, you just go to the beach when in port or stay on the ship and enjoy your private pool (at least that's what it seems like since there are so few people on board).

We cruise the Caribbean for the ship -not the ports. We rarely get off unless we have to run in to pick up something special like in Cozumel - vanilla for my daughter or in St. Thomas - a bottle of Tiramisu liqueur.

[garykool81]

A very simple guide would be the ones the very travel agents who book us all use....

 

MASS MARKET....carnival, rccl, ncl, etc.

 

PREMIUM (**NOT LUXURY**)...celebrity, princess, hal, etc.

 

LUXURY....rssc, crystal, seabourn, etc.

 

 

Just like hotels, there are different tiers. Anyone who says it's "either luxury or mass market" has a pretty black and white outlook on the world.

 

Is a Hilton as good as a Ritz? Absolutely not. Not by a long shot.

 

However, is a Hilton *MUCH* better than a Motel 6? Absolutely YES...and by a long shot.

 

Get it?

 

Cheers :-)

[garykool81]

Much has also been discussed about dress and those who do or don't dress appropriately and/or in accordance with "the rules." I guess I've reached that age in life when I've become far more thoughtful and considerate, (and less judgemental), of others. I happened to be on the Mercury 10/13/04 which caused that "hot topic" thread which is now closed. When I am enjoying dinner on any night, formal, informal or casual, it's not because of how others are dressed ... it's because of the conversation with my life partner, and/or the new friends who are seated with or around us. One of the lessons I have learned over a half-century is that you really cannot judge a book by its cover. There may be unexplained reasons why one is not in compliance with "the rules." And after all, what I wear isn't nearly as important as who I am.

 

Just wanted to chime in on this once more, as I was the original poster of this "hot topic," which was closed per request since the discussion was getting a tad out of hand with personal insults and such.

 

I don't want *anyone* to be left with the idea that I am judgemental, a snob or the type of individual who would allow a silly thing such as dress codes to influence my enjoyment of a vacation. I was at no point during the cruise furious or anything of the sort about the dress codes not being actively enforced.

 

Rather, I simply noted that a fellow passenger at the table next to me (an older woman sitting with her husband at a table for two, who we chatted with here and there) was complaining to the restaurant staff regarding the dress code situation. I also chimed in saying that I didn't understand why they would print the rules as black and white, but not enforce them.

 

To better illustrate the situation, I guess I can use an example her husband gave to myself and my partner (Ian). Her husband on formal night had brought his best tuxedo onboard, boasting diamond studs and all -- you name it. He chose not to wear it after the first formal night because *he* was the one feeling awkward and overdressed.

 

Again -- I don't want to reopen this topic, but I also don't want people thinking because of the fact that I opened the old topic that I am some sort of dress code nazi, heartless jerk, etc. -- that could not be further from the truth. As a gay man living in America, I think that speaks for itself on the topic of being judgemental.

 

Highseasgal: Also, please don't think this post is directed at you, and I am not saying that you accused me of being judgemental or anything like that. I just want to clear the air and make sure people do not misinterpret my intentions or your post.

 

Thnx :-)

[high seas gal]

Gary,

I didn't think your post was directed toward me at all. One thing you mentioned in one of your postings to this thread was that the older gentleman whose tux included diamond studs, did not wear his tux again because he felt overdressed. At our early dinner seating there may have been 5 to, at most, 10 percent of the gentlemen in tuxes. And it was probably closer to the 5%. So I can understand why the gentleman you mentioned felt overdressed.

 

Personally, we only did one formal night. The other two formal evenings on our cruise we thoroughly enjoyed a full meal from the dining room menu ... just in the privacy of our cabin. Now wonderful room service really makes you feel spoiled! Boy did those 11 days pass quickly!

[Lois R]

Hi:) Very interesting thread......I also sailed HAL recently...last month.....and was very disappointed with the service. Had a couple of very poor experiences in the dining room:(

We all have our preferences concerning what is important....some of us are "Foodies", some of us "love the itinerary" offered...others prefer the "ship experience"....for me, the service is very important....I felt like on HAL they really didn't care if you were enjoying yourself or not. (Especially in the dining room) and the food wasn't anything to write home about either. They served Pot Pie and Meat Loaf on the last evening.......I enjoy both those dishes, but NOT on a cruise:eek:

 

After 3 times on X....In my opinion, HAL is NOT on the same caliber.

[garykool81]

highseasgal --

 

Agreed -- we opt to not wear a tux either, with well under half of the passengers in late seating doing so. A nice dark suit, IMHO, is just dandy.

 

LoisR --

 

You and others are scaring me :-) We have our first Holland America cruise in December, and all of the Celebrity passengers we've spoken with both online and offline have said not too many good things about HAL hehe....I am sure it will still be a step above the lower end lines, but it sounds like it won't meet my expectations in terms of what Celebrity has set for me....oh well.

 

BTW -- I am also a *very* big foodie person, so that matters a great deal to me. Everyone might remember my lengthy Galaxy review in March 2004 where I ripped apart the meat dishes. Fortunately, they were absolutely fantastic on the latest Mercury cruise.

[high seas gal]

Thank you all for keeping my thread in the gentle manner in which I intended it!

[rogerdm]

Cruiseguy - Part of the problem is that I can't bring myself to believe that the service, food and overall experience on Crystal is that much better than on Celebrity.

 

 

I didn't think so either, but after listening to my TA and going to the Crystal Cruise Boards, you will find another story. I have booked a Crystal Cruise next year. Crystal is a whole different world.

[Lois R]

Hi Gary:) I tried to post a reply to you earlier today...but for some reason the boards were funky...I typed the entire post, but it would not take it:( . First...I never meant to scare you!!!!

 

Quote by GaryKool:

 

"LoisR --

 

You and others are scaring me :-) We have our first Holland America cruise in December, and all of the Celebrity passengers we've spoken with both online and offline have said not too many good things about HAL hehe....I am sure it will still be a step above the lower end lines, but it sounds like it won't meet my expectations in terms of what Celebrity has set for me....oh well."

 

I was on the Zuiderdam last month.....I love good food too...but my dissatisfaction was more with the service and how I was treated.....The food was so-so. When I returned home, a lot of the folks on the HAL board suggested I try one of the smaller ships...that the service would be better on them. I have no desire to sail them again.

 

In my 3 Cruises on X I have ALWAYS felt welcomed.....as if it was the staff's pleasure to serve me. They would go out of there way...if you requested something...whatever it might be.

Maybe part of it does come from the "pre-tipping" HAL now puts out. Your tips are put on your On-board account....and maybe it is true...they know they are being tipped so maybe they feel they don't need to give the service.

 

Anyway....it wasn't "horrible"...after all, I was on a cruise for a week...but I do know, I will be happy to sail on the CENTURY again:D

 

Oh I wrote a review....click on the other thread "The Celebrity Experience" and Scroll down to the bottom...where you will find a selection of other posts.

You will find my review there..... Zuiderdam Sept 18th. You might want to click on it and read it.

 

But again, I never meant to scare you...I promise:)

[ocngypz]

Former Premium cruiselines: Royal, Royal Viking, Sitmar, Home Lines

 

The only extant cruiseline which comes close to the former premium cruiselines fleetwide: is Oceania.

 

Celebrity and HAL do not meet the definition of premium cruiselines.

[Leejnd4]

Maybe part of it does come from the "pre-tipping" HAL now puts out. Your tips are put on your On-board account....and maybe it is true...they know they are being tipped so maybe they feel they don't need to give the service.

 

Y'know, I've wondered many times how much tipping really does impact the service received. I've read many different opinions on this. Some seem to feel that the best way to get the level of service you want is to keep the staff waiting to see what kind of tip they'll get, so they'll work hard to earn it; others feel that slipping something extra to them at the beginning assures that they will treat you a little better than everyone else from then on. And, as you mentioned, many feel that the practice of including tips upfront eliminates the motivation for the crew to give that little extra to anyone.

 

I think the truth depends on the individual, but I will say this: the whole concept that ANY passenger would be treated "better" than any others just because they give extra money to a crew member is disturbing to me. The crew has a job to do, and they should do it to the best of their ability to ALL passengers regardless of their ability or propensity to pay more. The whole tipping thing just smacks of bribery to me. "Pay me extra, or I'll treat you bad." I just don't like it, it seems so manipulative. I suppose if the cruise line insists on using the tip process to pay their staff, then we certainly must contribute, because I wouldn't want to deny a worker fair and reasonable pay. As such, I do believe that the tips should just be charged up front, a specific known amount, so that we passengers can factor that into the actual cost of the cruise. But I see it as just a method used by the cruise line to be able to advertise lower prices for their product.

 

I'm booked on a Radisson cruise next year, so I've been doing a lot of research into what people have to say about their Radisson experiences. Radisson, like the other luxury lines, has eliminated all tipping from their cruises. They state that all tips are included in your fare. In fact, on their website they say that if you feel compelled to tip due to some especially good service, they request that you give the money to a fund they maintain for crew parties, rather than give it to the individual. And from everything I've read, here and many other places, the service you receive on their ships is extraordinary and unmatched. These people are working for a fixed amount, and yet they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities without having to be paid off by the passengers. (Now, I haven't sailed with them yet, so it remains to be seen if I have the same experience, but I have yet to read a single review or comment about their service that doesn't rave about it.)

 

Of course, I assume that crew members on luxury lines are paid more than those on mass-market lines, which might account for increased effort -- if this is where they're going to make the most money in this industry, they are certainly motivated to work their hardest to keep the job. But I just find it interesting that it IS possible to receive exceptional service without the passengers having to tip for it.

 

LeeAnne

[Lois R]

Hi Leeann:)

 

My sister and brother-in-law have cruised on Radisson and Celebrity. In their minds it is not a true comparison.

 

They are not opposed to sailing X...just depends on what they are looking for at that moment.

But from everything they have told me...it really is like comparing apples to oranges...so it is not a fair and true comparison.

 

Anyway....about the tipping...I don't know 100% for sure that was the reason my service on HAL was poor....but I do know for me, I felt like I was treated better on X. Was that due to how the tips were given? I cannot give you a definitive answer on that one.....But when on disembarked HAL, it was the first time I didn't feel like I had a "wonderful week".....

[Leejnd4]

Hi Lois,

 

I've heard that too, about Celeb vs Radisson. I have truly enjoyed my Celebrity cruising experiences, and I'm eager to see how different the two really are! I don't think that cruising on Radisson is going to spoil me for going on Celebrity again, though -- I just have to remember that they are two different types of experiences. And there are different reasons I might choose lines -- on this upcoming Radisson cruise, I'm traveling with my mother, and I just know she'll love the luxury aspects. (As will I!) When I've taken the kids with me (12 & 13), we went on RCCL, because I knew they'd find lots of kids their age, and have a great time while DH and I got to relax and spend a few days at sea. My DH and I have cruised Celebrity sans kids, and seen some lovely places and met a number of really fun and wonderful people. I think if one just manages their expectations, you can't really have a bad cruise! Isn't there a saying -- the worst day cruising is better than the best day working? ;)

 

Of course, I haven't been on HAL, but it does seem to me that if they present themselves as comparable to Celebrity, Princess, etc, charge similar prices, but don't deliver the same calibre product, that could definitely be a disappointment.

 

LeeAnne

[hotspur]

I think the truth depends on the individual, but I will say this: the whole concept that ANY passenger would be treated "better" than any others just because they give extra money to a crew member is disturbing to me. The crew has a job to do, and they should do it to the best of their ability to ALL passengers regardless of their ability or propensity to pay more. The whole tipping thing just smacks of bribery to me. "Pay me extra, or I'll treat you bad." I just don't like it, it seems so manipulative. I suppose if the cruise line insists on using the tip process to pay their staff, then we certainly must contribute, because I wouldn't want to deny a worker fair and reasonable pay. As such, I do believe that the tips should just be charged up front, a specific known amount, so that we passengers can factor that into the actual cost of the cruise. But I see it as just a method used by the cruise line to be able to advertise lower prices for their product.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your posting, Leejnd4, but especially with the paragraph above. And the word "bribery" captures my sentiments exactly, in particular with respect to the idea of tipping "up-front." Very distasteful, IMNSHO.

[BEAV]

Price convergence between Celebrity and the luxury lines is occurring more often, although the lines themselves make it difficult to do an "apples to apples" comparison. For example, several discounted Crystal cruises are now within Celebrity's price range (although the higher end of the range). Problem is, these cruises are mostly on the Harmony, Crystal's oldest and smallest ship and are usually for inside or window cabins (all with very small, but extremely nice, bathrooms). But the ship has its admirers and you do get the Crystal "experience," such as it is, for a Celebrity price.

 

You are so right, cruiseyguy. Crystal is doing some aggressive marketing with some very attractively priced sailings. Simultaneously, I might add, as Celebrity increases their overall rates. We took the bait Crystal tossed our way and sailed Harmony to Alaska this past June. She may be the oldest in the fleet, however was in tip top shape as far as we were concerned. The Symphony is enjoying a few 'value collection' sailings as well, however, and we have booked her for March to the Caribbean. There is nothing quite like the Crystal "experience" as far as we're concerned. And you're right again....we're downgrading from balconies & suites w/Celebrity to inside/outside cabins on Crystal. For us, the downgrade in cabins is worth it for the overall cruise experience. If Celebrity cruisers like us are the client base Crystal is targeting, all I can say is it's working!

[BEAV]

Cruiseguy - You pointed out exactly what I found in my research. In fact, I even got a little miffed at my long time TA about some aspects of trying to compare a royal suite on Celebrity to an inside or window cabin on Crystal. Her "about the same" and mine were not about the same. I have a hard time convincing myself and, more importantly, my wife that I should pay a upper category Celebrity price to go on a Crystal cruise and wind up in a minimum cabin. Part of the problem is that I can't bring myself to believe that the service, food and overall experience on Crystal is that much better than on Celebrity.

 

After our virgin Crystal experience this past June, I wrote a private review for a local group of Celebrity friends. I didn't post the review publicaly, mainly because it was tailored to give a comparison of Crystal vs Celebrity to our Celebrity friends. My experiences and opinions address your exact question (and hesitation) Randyk47! If you (or anyone else) is interested in reading the review, drop me an email and I will forward. My email address is in my profile.

 

In the meantime, for those of you that consider food an important aspect of your cruise experience, here are some shots from Crystal to whet your appetite! And by the way, we still love Celebrity, and will no doubt sail them again in the future. But in the meantime we're enjoying the Crystal experience as long as those 'value collection' sailings are still around.....

 

http://community.webshots.com/album/158609473BwigHe/0

[Randyk47]

Thanks Beav. I've sent you an email. :) This thread is really educational for me as it addresses some of questions I've rolled over and over in my head for several years. I'd more or less given up on pursuing a "luxury" cruise as not being economically viable in comparison to Celebrity or HAL, especially post 9/11. Now that the industry seems to be recovering and the super deep discounts starting to disappear it might be that the economics are such that some of the luxury cruise lines are back on my research plate.

[cruiseyguy]

On the matter of inclusive tips-my sole experience on Radisson (the Mariner) led me to believe that including tips actually lowers the level of service. Service on that cruise was polite but lethargic and certainly did not have the "snap" I have found on Celebrity (and Crystal) cruises. A waiter in the Mariner's buffet cafe told me he had a taken a Radisson contract because he needed a "break" from the tip-based job he had on another line but was going back to that job after his Radisson gig was over because he made more money within a tip-based system. That said it all for me.

[1drifter]

LoisR --

 

You and others are scaring me :-) We have our first Holland America cruise in December, and all of the Celebrity passengers we've spoken with both online and offline have said not too many good things about HAL hehe....I am sure it will still be a step above the lower end lines, but it sounds like it won't meet my expectations in terms of what Celebrity has set for me....oh well.

 

This is funny because we took a HAL cruise this summer and loved it. I was getting scared because I heard Celebrity Galaxy does not have a wrap-around promenade deck for walking, does not have free cappuccino after dinner in the dining room & does not have a wine package for semi-reasonably priced wine in the dining room. These were some of our favorite things on the HAL cruise . LOL. We're still looking forward to our 1st Celebrity cruise in April and discovering all the wonderful things about Celebrity. Can't compare the food since we haven't been on Celebrity, but we loved the food on HAL!

[nitnyleo]

it must be mass market.

[Lois R]

hi:) 1drifter.....I did love the Promanade Deck that wrapped around the Zuiderdam....that was one of the very positive things I found....I don't order wine packages so that didn't apply to me. The Promanade was lovely, I would take a book and read and relax.

 

I hope you have a wonderful time on Galaxy just as I hope Gary enjoys his week on HAL.

 

I met many people who had nothing but good things to say about their cruise and I am glad for them.....but my overall experience wasn't what I would call, "Welcoming"....I didn't have a terrible time mind you, I was after all on a cruiseship for a week;) ....But the service was definitely lacking.

 

When I disembarked I didn't have any type of feelings that would bring me back to HAL again. (Just one cruiser's opinion).

[garykool81]

I was getting scared because I heard Celebrity Galaxy does not have a wrap-around promenade deck for walking, does not have free cappuccino after dinner in the dining room & does not have a wine package for semi-reasonably priced wine in the dining room.

 

Here, here! These are some of my strongest criticisms of what claims to be a "premium" level line. While I still would disagree with those who throw Celebrity into the same category as RCCL, Carnival and company, I am peeved by a number of items...

 

1. Cappuccino at dinner or in the dining room. Even aboard mass-market lines such as Norwegian Cruise Lines, I was able to opt for a cappucino and was even *offered* one free of charge every single time I ate in the main dining venues. Celebrity makes you pay for it as if it were a specialty drink. What the heck?!

 

2. Wine package -- Again, totally agree.

 

3. Wrap around promenade -- One of the most detracting factors of these new cruise liners is their likening to a block of condos that simply fell off the cliffs and into the ocean, somehow learned to float and formed a cruise ship. The lack of a proper promenade deck, which doesn't involve climbing stairs to multiple decks, etc., is a major disappointment aboard this new generation of larger ships from Celebrity and others in the industry.

 

On our latest two cruises, both the captains of Galaxy and Mercury opted to *CLOSE* the front of the ship altogether, so passengers on deck 11 were not even able to go to the ONE place on the ship with a forward looking view. That's totally confusing to me.

[Richard Stein]

Going to Europe, South America or Antartica try Orient cruise lines, the one ship premium line that is reasonable. I'm an elite Captains club member and favor Celebrity when I get a decent price. I'm also a Polo club member. They have good prices to Europe, reasonable shore excursions and a name chef like Celebrity helping with their menus and food operation. It is an older ship that is a converted ice breaker hull and they do better to Antartica than anyone. Before Celebrity I favored Royal until they went under and Orient is similar in their customer service.