Golden Princess Red Flagged

[Buddy604]

While I completely agree that the best way to prevent illness is always proper and thorough hand washing with warm soap and water it is not correct that hand sanitizers do nothing to prevent norovirus. Studies have shown that ethanol based sanitizers with at least a 62% ethanol concentration are effective against many non-enveloped viruses including norovirus, which is why the CDC recommends using these types of ethanol based sanitizers as an adjunct to hand washing or when soap and water aren't available.

I'd love to see thoe studies if you can find a link to them. The only studies I've had the opportunity to review had noro happily swimming in 100% ethanol. In that study, it required a heavy bleach solution 1:20 or sustained infrared heat in excess of 85C to kill it.

[teripp]

And there-in lies the problem. The santizers are there for a reason and people just do not use them. Or coming from the bathroom and I seen with my own eyes there are some that do not wash their hands after using the facilities. Yuck.

marilyn

 

I see that at work also. One of my pet peeves to be exact. I never open a bathroom door in a public place with out having a paper towel on/in my hand.If that is not possible I either let someone else open the door or open it with my shirt sleeve. I agree YUCK

[LovetheSea]

I have had both seasickness and a Noro type illness. With the Noro you have diarrhea and throwing up. With seasickness, just throwing up and dizziness. I also heard on TV the other day that sanitizer wipes work better than the gel. If anyone is packing for a future cruise they may want to bring these.

[jalpert]

Sanitizers aren't as effective as washing one's hands.

If people always have the sanitizers, they may skip on the hand washing routine, and then the situation could be worse.

 

On the Golden last week, there was always sanitizer available at the various food venues, but it wasn't squirted at you until there were a few sick people onboard.

 

 

I happen to agree. I wash my hands right before meals (20+ seconds), and I never use the sanitizers, I hope that doesn't make me bad...

[karatemom2]

I'd love to see thoe studies if you can find a link to them. The only studies I've had the opportunity to review had noro happily swimming in 100% ethanol. In that study, it required a heavy bleach solution 1:20 or sustained infrared heat in excess of 85C to kill it.

 

Here are a few links with comments pulled from content. There are lots more but these seemed among the most user-friendly for non-medical people. As I pointed out, hand washing is still the best defense, but ethanol alcohol based hand sanitizers have proven to be an effective adjunct to hand washing in preventing the spread of norovirus.

 

I think the key point is that because many people have the false notion that sanitizers have no efficacy at all against viruses, there is no value in using them. The truth is that they are a helpful preventive measure, especially when used in conjunction with proper and frequent hand washing.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/cruiselines/hand_hygiene_general.htm

 

Some scientific evidence suggest that ethanol-based hand antiseptics containing 60-90 percent alcohol, appear to be the most effective against common pathogens (including non-enveloped viruses) that cause acute gastroenteritis on cruise ships. In general, ethanol-based hand antiseptics appear to have greater antimicrobial activity against viruses than isopropanol-based hand antiseptics, although both appear to offer some activity against these pathogens.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/training/videos/transcripts/housekeeping.pdf

 

Hand antiseptic. Hand antiseptics can be used as an adjunct to hand washing, but should not be used to replace hand washing. It is important to note that hand antiseptics remove the pathogen load that is left on your hands after thorough hand washing. It has been shown that a hand antiseptic that is 60 to 80% ethanol, gelbased, can remove 95% of Feline Calicivirus. Feline Calicivirus is used as a sentinel to indicate what can be done to Norovirus. We want to make sure that we use the gelbased sanitizers because they take longer to dry, and we want a contact time of 20 seconds. Again, using a hand antiseptic is not a substitute for hand washing.

 

http://foodsafety.ksu.edu/articles/1136/ifsn_sanitizer_factsheet.pdf

 

How effective are hand sanitizers?

 

Research has shown that sanitizers are effective at killing and inactivating most bacteria and viruses. Alcohol-based sanitizers are recommended as a way to help prevent the spread of many common pathogens like tuberculosis and foodborne illnesses such as norovirus. These sanitizers

are, however, not as efficient as hand washing in reducing numbers of bacterial spores, protozoan oocysts, and certain non-enveloped (non-lipophilic) viruses. Some of these viruses include HIV, Hepatitis A, and rhinovirus. It has been shown that sanitizers containing moisturizers may lead to the accumulation of more bacteria on your skin.

 

What should I look for in a sanitizer?

 

When shopping for a sanitizer you should look for one containing at least 60 per cent alcohol. A sanitizer with n-propanol is generally only found in Europe, and is slightly less effective against bacteria and viruses than both ethanol and isopropanol. Ethanol is more effective against viruses

than isopropanol. Isopropanol is more effective against bacteria than ethanol because it is less volatile. Because the difference between their efficacies is not significant, either one will suffice when used in an adequate concentration.

[dcrow72]

hand sanitizers are widely accepted in all medical fields now. As a matter of fact some are now being used as an adjunct for scrubbing in for surgical cases. They have been given a blessing by both the CDC and APIC (infection control professionals association). Use them frequently and wash your hands when visibly soiled or you are able to access facilities and keep your hands away from your face. You'll greatly reduce any risks of contracting any virus or bacteria. You can't eliminate the risks no matter how hard you try.

[karatemom2]

hand sanitizers are widely accepted in all medical fields now. As a matter of fact some are now being used as an adjunct for scrubbing in for surgical cases. They have been given a blessing by both the CDC and APIC (infection control professionals association). Use them frequently and wash your hands when visibly soiled or you are able to access facilities and keep your hands away from your face. You'll greatly reduce any risks of contracting any virus or bacteria. You can't eliminate the risks no matter how hard you try.

 

I agree. I work for a very large medical organization and hand sanitizers are an integral part of the infection control process.

[Buddy604]

Thank you Mary for the links - food for thought indeed. I was reviewing a University of Iowa study which highlighted the problem with hand sanitizers of less than 70% ethanol (most are 62%) and concluding they are ineffective against norovirus. The other problem being that in order to have 20-30 seconds of active contact before the alcohol evatorates, you do need to use a fair amount of the gel - more than the one of two squirts offered at the buffet.

 

That said, it does help control bacterial contamination as well as certain non-enveloped viruses. It's not a waste of time or effort to implement it, but when it comes to noro control, it's not enough.

 

I'd love to see some handwashing stations near the buffet and restaurant.

 

BTW, I'm not a germ freak, though I do travel with one - we call her "bubble girl." :D

[karatemom2]

I'd love to see some handwashing stations near the buffet and restaurant.

 

BTW, I'm not a germ freak, though I do travel with one - we call her "bubble girl." :D

 

LOL that's so funny! I'm sure someday long after I'm gone that my children will fondly remember me every time they smell bleach, alcohol, Lysol or Anti-bacterial soap. (Not to mention Bactine and Neosporin!) :D

 

I agree about the handwashing stations. That would be great. Then if we could just get someone to teach people how to wash. I used the ABC song with my kids, but somehow it just doesn't seem to resonate with adults!

[NeurosurgeryNP]

On our first cruise, which was on DCL, you could not embark or disembark on the ship, or enter the buffett or dining room without using the hand sanitizer - there were staff at each station to make sure you used it. When we cruise on PCL for the first time, we were surprized on how lax the rules were - no sanitizer when embarkign or disembarking at ports, and no one there to make sure you used it. Very interesting nt he difference of philosophies.

[karatemom2]

On our first cruise, which was on DCL, you could not embark or disembark on the ship, or enter the buffett or dining room without using the hand sanitizer - there were staff at each station to make sure you used it. When we cruise on PCL for the first time, we were surprized on how lax the rules were - no sanitizer when embarkign or disembarking at ports, and no one there to make sure you used it. Very interesting nt he difference of philosophies.

 

Our first two cruises were on DCL and I also noticed the difference when we began cruising other lines. My thought was that since DCL generally carries a significantly higher number of children than other lines they need to be even more stringent regarding infection control.

[Coral]

I was on Sapphire last week and there was no sanitizer in Horizon Court or at any of the dining rooms. That was a change from my last Princess cruise wher it seemed to be everywhere.

 

In fact, the only time I saw any mandatory use of sanitizer was when they squirted some in my hands as we entered the Captains Circle Club cocktail party just before shaking hands with Capt Pickford(sp?). I guess rank does have its priviledges.

 

Is Princess trying to save $$ by only bringing out the sanitizer if a certain percentage of people onboard get sick??

 

Paul

 

I was also on the ship the past 2 weeks. There was hand santizer in the Horizon Court but people were not forced to use it.

 

Someone quoted someone recently on this board saying that there was a study and when there were more sanitizers out, the less people wash their hands so the cruise lines were not putting as many of the sanitizers out. I am not aware of one hand santizier that prevents norovirus. The best to do is wash hands with soap and hot water and not to touch your face, etc...

[Sandytoes]

According to crew,

What crew? ? ? :rolleyes:...:confused:

 

they had a Norwalk outbreak two days ago and are now operating under red flag. No self service in the buffet, no menus at the bar, and a very nice lady pumping the condiments on my cheeseburger.

 

When I let my travelling buddy know, she said she just thought they were offering a higher grade of service than usual. :p

 

Mike

 

Just did a search and there's no mention of a Norwalk Virus Outbreak on the Golden.

 

Where did you hear this? :confused:

 

2008 Cruise Line Cruise Ship Sailing Dates Causative Agent

Norwegian Cruise Line Norwegian Jewel 9/28-10/8 Pending

Regent Seven Seas Cruises Seven Seas Mariner 8/27-9/3 Norovirus

Holland America Line Veendam 6/13-6/20 Norovirus

Norwegian Cruise Line Norwegian Dream 4/13-5/1 Norovirus and Enterotoxigenic E. coli (ETEC)

Holland America Line Zaandam 3/19 -4/3 Norovirus

Holland America Line Ryndam 2/15-2/25 Norovirus Carnival Cruise Line Holiday 1/24-1/28 Norovirus

Norwegian Cruise Lines Norwegian Star 1/19-1/27 Norovirus

Holland America Line Noordam 1/5-1/16 Norovirus

Holland America Line Volendam 1/2-1/12 Norovirus

Princess Cruises Pacific Princess 12/15-1/10 Enterotoxigenic E. coli (ETEC)

[rdsqrl]

I agree about the handwashing stations. That would be great. Then if we could just get someone to teach people how to wash. I used the ABC song with my kids, but somehow it just doesn't seem to resonate with adults!

I recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Silently! Perhaps that would resonate more with adults -- at least American ones. Do the British have a similar thing? I guess they could just mumble the words to "God Save the Queen" . . .

[Sandytoes]

I recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Silently! Perhaps that would resonate more with adults -- at least American ones. Do the British have a similar thing? I guess they could just mumble the words to "God Save the Queen" . . .

 

 

Most people aren't aware how long it takes to wash off germs.

 

It use to be about the length of singing Happy Birthday.

But studies show that was not long enough.

So, now it's the length of singing the Alphabet song.

[Buddy604]

Just did a search and there's no mention of a Norwalk Virus Outbreak on the Golden.

 

Where did you hear this? :confused:

I was onboard when it happened. I heard it from the bar staff, the stewards, et al. Apparently it hit two days before I boarded, so on the 25th of September, and by the time I was onboard there were no bar menus, no self-serve buffet, and I had to ask my waiter to pour some salt and crack some pepper onto a side plate for me so I could pinch and toss on my meal as required. :)

 

That was 10 days ago or so, so they are probably off code red by now, though they did heavily discount the October 1 Hawaii sailing after it came out. 14 days for $850! I wish I had been able to take them up on it.

[Buddy604]

LOL that's so funny! I'm sure someday long after I'm gone that my children will fondly remember me every time they smell bleach, alcohol, Lysol or Anti-bacterial soap. (Not to mention Bactine and Neosporin!) :D

 

I agree about the handwashing stations. That would be great. Then if we could just get someone to teach people how to wash. I used the ABC song with my kids, but somehow it just doesn't seem to resonate with adults!

I'd love to design an automated handwashing station that you stick your hands in and it does everything for you. I would be great at buffets, though it might also accumulate a nice collection of rings. :D

[Buddy604]

My thought was that since DCL generally carries a significantly higher number of children than other lines they need to be even more stringent regarding infection control.

Children have replaced Tsetse flies as the disease vector of our time. :D Kidding aside, because of "hands-on" education and large class sizes, I suspect children are often the vector for moving common communicable diseases from group to group.

[karatemom2]

Children have replaced Tsetse flies as the disease vector of our time. :D Kidding aside, because of "hands-on" education and large class sizes, I suspect children are often the vector for moving common communicable diseases from group to group.

 

That's absolutely true which is one of the reasons most public health departments are encouraging flu shots for all children now. The feeling is if they can control outbreaks among school age children it will significantly reduce the number of cases in the general population.

[cab519]

Was on Golden Sept 28-Oct 1 Vancouver the LA, the cruise immediately after the one with the outbreak. Full precautions (no self serve in buffet, buns handed out at dinner, etc.) were in place for the first 1 1/2 days, then back to normal by the second sea day morning. It was interesting to see, and most passengers took it in stride as protecting them. The room steward handed out an information sheet upon arrival. Incredible amount of work on the crews part. One person in the buffet loudly explained their "right" to use the tongs, and that they had been on many cruises, and would not bring the Norovirus on, ensuring everyone in the vicinity heard them (probably last seen at the Pursers counter complaining about this or something else).

On cruise ships I have some golden (pardon the pun for the last ship I was one) rules

* Absolutely avoid public rest rooms. Always go back to your cabin.

* Avoid hand railings where possible, or ensure you wash hands afterward.

* Carry my own mini-purrell bottle, and use AFTER touching tongs in the buffet before eating.

* Watch out for elevator buttons! Try to push with a pen, book, etc.

* Hold doors open with arms/elbows, and avoid door handles.