Cruising: Big Money On the High Seans

[Mtierney]

This is a fascinating program from a money-making perspective. However, watching this documentary convinces me there is no way I would ever cruise NCL.

 

Actually, my husband and I were so bummed out after watching this show we said it would have turned us off totally from cruising. This was a public relations nightmare in our opinion.

 

We have never experienced the scene as depicted on the show in any of our 5 HAL cruises. We are looking forward to a May Baltics cruise on the Eurodam and are confident it won't be anything like the NCL. Wonder what the feedback has been as a result of this exposure.

[hammybee]

Actually, my husband and I were so bummed out after watching this show we said it would have turned us off totally from cruising. This was a public relations nightmare in our opinion.

 

We have never experienced the scene as depicted on the show in any of our 5 HAL cruises. We are looking forward to a May Baltics cruise on the Eurodam and are confident it won't be anything like the NCL. Wonder what the feedback has been as a result of this exposure.

 

I thought it was a PR home run.

 

What scene are you referring to? Maybe I was out of the room? What did I miss?

[Mtierney]

This is a fascinating program from a money-making perspective. However, watching this documentary convinces me there is no way I would ever cruise NCL.

 

My husband and I watched the show and said if we hadn't enjoyed cruising, we would have been totally turned off to the idea!

 

In our five trips on HAL, we have never experienced the scene as depicted on this program. I think it was a public relations nightmare for NCL. Worse, it probably will have people thinking twice about going on a cruise - on any line.

 

We really don't feel comfortable being viewed as a cash cow - especially in this economy.

 

Sorry about the double posting!

[Mtierney]

I thought it was a PR home run.

 

What scene are you referring to? Maybe I was out of the room? What did I miss?

 

Hope I don't mess up the posting again. The show's emphasis on money and how NCL goes about wringing the last dollar from the passengers - over and over, it was $$$ signs and how the shops, extra drinks, meeting liquor quotas, getting people to spend, spend while on board. Of course, it's a multi-million dollar business and these boats cost big bucks, but the program made us feel "taken" and the experience sleezy. How drunk do you need to get on a cruise?

 

We just have never gotten that feeling on our HAL cruises.

[swedish weave]

Hope I don't mess up the posting again. The show's emphasis on money and how NCL goes about wringing the last dollar from the passengers - over and over, it was $$$ signs and how the shops, extra drinks, meeting liquor quotas, getting people to spend, spend while on board. Of course, it's a multi-million dollar business and these boats cost big bucks, but the program made us feel "taken" and the experience sleezy. How drunk do you need to get on a cruise?

 

We just have never gotten that feeling on our HAL cruises.

 

The show was about big bucks on the high seas, and NCL opened up to host the show.

 

We have sailed on both lines and see similar activities on both.

 

We enjoy both lines, so I cannot see why anyone would use the show as an excuse to bash any cruise line.

 

This bodes of the same mindset that people use to avoid tipping the crew.

[kryos]

Of course, it's a multi-million dollar business and these boats cost big bucks, but the program made us feel "taken" and the experience sleezy. How drunk do you need to get on a cruise?

 

We just have never gotten that feeling on our HAL cruises.

Oh, trust me ... it's pretty much the same on HAL. Every cruise is a game of profit and loss. Of course, I would imagine the higher the price of the cruise, the wider the latitude onboard management has with profit making ventures. If the ship sails at top dollar for the cabins, then I would guess they don't have to constantly be "nickle and diming" every minute of the day, but don't for one minute believe that those onboard managers aren't charged with turning a nice profit everytime those azipods hum.

 

NCL charges less for their cruises, so they have to make money. I think the show was very honest, if nothing else and what it taught me is that you, as the passenger, have to stay one step ahead of their "game." If you want something, then fine ... buy it ... but don't let anyone talk you into another drink that you don't particularly want, or buying something in one of the shops that you'll wonder where your brains were when you get home with it.

 

I got a laugh out of those officers in the liquor storage area, when they said they had to make $7.00 or so from each passenger per day in drinks ... and talked about some of the techniques they have to do this ... such as martini making and wine tasting classes. You can bet that every onboard department has "tricks" for parting guests from their money ... every department from the future cruise consultant, to the art auctions, to the shops, to the bars.

 

Every cruise has to make a profit. If it doesn't ... and the problem is a consistent one ... then onboard management will change. You can bet on it.

 

Now, does this bother me? Honestly, no. They can hawk things all they want. As long as no one is forcing me to buy, then I figure all the power to them. I'll buy what I want and then leave the rest. Frankly, their profit margin is of no concern to me. I paid my fare and that's all I feel I'm obligated to spend. So, let them sell ... as far as I'm concerned. I'll only buy what I would have bought anyway, so their sales efforts, frankly, are lost on me.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[pipedreams62]

I think the show should have ben called "Schleppers Of The High Seas"

 

I never saw so many schleppers all in one place. I thought I was watching an 'Ugly" sandal competition.

 

Plus NCL honchos let the "Cat Out Of The Bag" regarding alcohol.

 

They're in the revenue generating business. They want to make money. They want you to purchase THEIR booze. They probably had this crazy idea once the welder lit his torch and made his first weld on the ship.

 

Their new ship was said to be close to one billion dollars,and they want to sell drinks and booze and make money? The nerve of them:rolleyes:

[swedish weave]

I think the show should have ben called "Schleppers Of The High Seas"

 

I never saw so many schleppers all in one place. I thought I was watching an 'Ugly" sandal competition.

 

Plus NCL honchos let the "Cat Out Of The Bag" regarding alcohol.

 

They're in the revenue generating business. They want to make money. They want you to purchase THEIR booze. They probably had this crazy idea once the welder lit his torch and made his first weld on the ship.

 

Their new ship was said to be close to one billion dollars,and they want to sell drinks and booze and make money? The nerve of them:rolleyes:

 

They also put in casinos and expect you to put YOUR money into THEIR machines. Another crazy money making idea!!!!!!!

[Roz]

I didn't think the show was a turn off on cruising at all; it was very realistic. With the exception of not having several extra charge restaurants, HAL has a casino, shore ex desk, bars, bingo, spa, etc.

 

Whether you realize it or not, HAL is watching the bottom line just like NCL. Everyone on the show seemed to be having a good time. They didn't seem turned off to cruising at all.

 

Roz

[hammybee]

Hope I don't mess up the posting again. The show's emphasis on money and how NCL goes about wringing the last dollar from the passengers - over and over, it was $$$ signs and how the shops, extra drinks, meeting liquor quotas, getting people to spend, spend while on board. Of course, it's a multi-million dollar business and these boats cost big bucks, but the program made us feel "taken" and the experience sleezy. How drunk do you need to get on a cruise?

 

We just have never gotten that feeling on our HAL cruises.

 

The purpose of the show was a slice of the view from the perspective of the company operating a business, not a charity.

 

Every single cruise line knows what it costs to operate every cruise and maintains revenue targets for everything sold on the ship.

 

All well run businesses do the same.

 

Your local grocer may sell coffee, this week, at a loss because once they get you into the store, chances are you will buy more than coffee.

[hammybee]

I didn't think the show was a turn off on cruising at all; it was very realistic. With the exception of not having several extra charge restaurants, HAL has a casino, shore ex desk, bars, bingo, spa, etc.

 

Whether you realize it or not, HAL is watching the bottom line just like NCL. Everyone on the show seemed to be having a good time. They didn't seem turned off to cruising at all.

 

Roz

 

Every cruise line, like every good business operation, watches their bottom line, because if they do not, they will not remain in business.

 

I am forever amazed with passenger perception of nickle and diming. Most of what is surcharged today, did not exist 20 years ago.

[hammybee]

 

I think the show should have ben called "Schleppers Of The High Seas"

 

I never saw so many schleppers all in one place. I thought I was watching an 'Ugly" sandal competition./quote]

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

NCL passengers look just like HAL, Celebrity, RCL, Carnival and Princess passengers embarking/disembarking onto/from a warm weather 7 day cruise, in Florida.

[pipedreams62]

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

NCL passengers look just like HAL, Celebrity, RCL, Carnival and Princess passengers embarking/disembarking onto/from a warm weather 7 day cruise, in Florida.

 

 

 

I must be the exception, I've heard rumors they take your picture when you board the ship. I don't want anybody to think I just got booted off survivor island. It's no wonder some people duck the cameras.

 

 

well speak of the devil

 

 

[Taxguy77]

Don't be sorry, if you've got a itch you gotta scratch!:p

For what it's worth: On our first cruise they explained the tipping system saying cruise lines had tried including an amount but service suffered. (Never had bad service on a ship) Then they included "tips" on an auto charge with an opt-out provision.(If it's charged, it's not a tip it's a charge. Now they are calling it a service fee or hotel charge. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may just be a duck.:rolleyes:

[CruisingChics]

thank you to all the kind writers after reading my ranting post...

 

just got back from the high seas and failed to do as i promised, that is to gently inquire about the wages of different levels of crew (dining, cabin stewards, etc.) but i'm going out to sea again next week so i'll try again.

suffice it to say, even the photographers work on a 'set' wage/salary and earn more through sales commissions or special promotions...

 

regarding the crew who can go ashore, by maritime law, 1/3rd of the crew must remain on board at any port of call, we call this "in port manning" (to maintain safety/lifeboat opeartion etc. in the case of an emergency). If you are "IPM" or "in port manning", you cannot go ashore, even if you are "off duty", i.e. casino staff... (the casino is closed while in port, so if you are on IPM but the casino is closed, you still must stay onboard.) It's all a rotation, so when (the writer) was on NCL and saw crew going ashore, it was likely their day off or they were not scheduled for IPM. The "luckiest" crew on board, if you are looking for a day off, are the casino, shops, and singers/dancers, because they, almost exclusively, do not do anything when the ship is in port (aside from training and possibly receiving Shop shipments for restocking)...

 

i'll report back when i return again...

 

throughout my time onboard, i've heard every side of the argument regarding tipping, "the service has gone down since they added the "automatic hotel charge"...

(why on earth would a steward or bar staff want to deliver LESS service because of an automatic "tip"?? if anything, he would want to work HARDER, to earn your "additional" tip~!)

or they'll say,

"if they are going to add a service charge, they should just increase the price of the cruise and tell me that tipping isn't required."

This last policy is practiced on up-scale lines like RSSC or Seaborne (whose crew are paid well.) I wish HAL did too, in fact, it would make everyone's life easier if it were explained like "a tip isn't required because we've taken CARE of our crew" then you can extend a "tip" for exemplary service, as it intended, "To Insure Perfect Service."

Unfortunately,there are those passengers who feel it is their right to withdraw the charges and undertip because they think they know better.

Yet the servers and stewards will still smile next week, because those of you who appreciate them make up for those who don't. I say, what goes around comes around. Cruise karma is funny that way. Don't you think?

Another argument might be that an all inclusive price of the cruise (with an included "tip") might discourage crewmembers from working harder to impress his boss for a promotion, IF (IF) he is just taking the job for the earnings.

But I would then argue that most of our crew are Hardworkers Anyway, and the slackers soon find themselves getting sent home.

[CruisingChics]

CruisingChics,

 

Let me add my thanks for your comments.

 

Personally, I think "tipping" should be automatic--a service charge that is required and cannot be elminated or reduced. It is really part of the cost of cruising; labeling some of the fare as a "tip" is just a way for cruise line marketing departments to create the artificial impression that cruising costs less than it does. This is particularly misleading to passengers from countries outside the U.S. with less of a tradition of tipping. They view such extra payments as unnecessary because the employer should be paying the wages, not the customers--true, but that's not the way it works in some service jobs in the U.S. and cruise ships follow that U.S. model.

Of course, there are also a lot of U.S. passengers who find reasons not to tip or to limit tipping to some favored few. IMHO "tipping" should not be a discretionary payment for spectacular service (like a bonus), but just part of the basic wages. Anyone who wants to give more is free to do so, but everyone should pay their fair share of the cruise costs, which includes the suggested/automatic tips, regardless of how that money is split up among the crew.

 

I completely agree with you.

This is indeed the tricky monster; some of the reason (in my opinion) why the tip is "automatically included" has a lot to do with the fact that a lot of crew get shafted by those who do not understand the "American way" of tipping i.e. working for $2.50 an hour at the Outback because you work "for tips") But also, there are those Americans who do their own fair share of shafting... Of course the cruise line is not going to tell you that it's to "make up" for that... Funny enough, I was looked at quite oddly when I tipped in Europe, but that's "my American way..."

 

This is also the monster that NCL-America has problems with (in keeping a steady American staff): americans working in positions "for tips" but not living the lifestyle that they are accustomed to (weekends off; 150 cable channels on the tv; etc).... maybe on NCL-America they should include the "tip" in the price of the cruise-???

[Don Haynes]

Why does every surcharge, auto-tip, and tipping thread lead to stiffing? Those who stiff, lead to more charges eventually.

[kryos]

Don't be sorry, if you've got a itch you gotta scratch!:p

For what it's worth: On our first cruise they explained the tipping system saying cruise lines had tried including an amount but service suffered. (Never had bad service on a ship) Then they included "tips" on an auto charge with an opt-out provision.(If it's charged, it's not a tip it's a charge. Now they are calling it a service fee or hotel charge. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may just be a duck.:rolleyes:

NCL is different than the other cruise lines, though. Their "auto-charge" cannot be reduced or cut off by the passenger. It is truly a hotel service charge ... just as you would pay on land. And that's where I have a problem with it. If it can't be opted out of, then it should be added in as a part of the cruise fare. But, no, NCL doesn't do this. Why? Because they want you to think their cruises are the cheapest and best value for the money.

 

If passengers realized that they are gonna wind up dining in extra pay restaurants quite frequently over the course of the week ... because there is virtually no variety in the regular dining rooms ... not to mention reports that the food and service in those restaurants is sub-par ... and they realized that like it or not, they were gonna have an extra $70 per week per person added to their onboard charges ... people would simply sit down and do the math when they were preparing to book a cruise. "Gee, this NCL cruise might not be any better a deal than this Princess or HAL one. Yes, I'm paying a lower per diem, but that per diem is not taking into account perhaps an extra $100 per person for dining charges, plus the $70 for hotel charges, plus the much smaller cabin (maybe making it necessary for me to book a separate cabin for the kids, or a much higher category cabin), plus the higher drink prices, plus this and plus that.

 

Only by comparing all the "true" costs of the cruise can you honestly determine which of two lines, going to the exact same destination, are really giving you the better deal. NCL doesn't want you to do that math, so they keep the base cost of the cruise low, and then tack everything on once you get onboard. Smart business, huh?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[flag fan]

Oh, trust me ... it's pretty much the same on HAL. Every cruise is a game of profit and loss. Of course, I would imagine the higher the price of the cruise, the wider the latitude onboard management has with profit making ventures. If the ship sails at top dollar for the cabins, then I would guess they don't have to constantly be "nickle and diming" every minute of the day, but don't for one minute believe that those onboard managers aren't charged with turning a nice profit everytime those azipods hum.

 

NCL charges less for their cruises, so they have to make money. I think the show was very honest, if nothing else and what it taught me is that you, as the passenger, have to stay one step ahead of their "game." If you want something, then fine ... buy it ... but don't let anyone talk you into another drink that you don't particularly want, or buying something in one of the shops that you'll wonder where your brains were when you get home with it.

 

I got a laugh out of those officers in the liquor storage area, when they said they had to make $7.00 or so from each passenger per day in drinks ... and talked about some of the techniques they have to do this ... such as martini making and wine tasting classes. You can bet that every onboard department has "tricks" for parting guests from their money ... every department from the future cruise consultant, to the art auctions, to the shops, to the bars.

 

Every cruise has to make a profit. If it doesn't ... and the problem is a consistent one ... then onboard management will change. You can bet on it.

 

Now, does this bother me? Honestly, no. They can hawk things all they want. As long as no one is forcing me to buy, then I figure all the power to them. I'll buy what I want and then leave the rest. Frankly, their profit margin is of no concern to me. I paid my fare and that's all I feel I'm obligated to spend. So, let them sell ... as far as I'm concerned. I'll only buy what I would have bought anyway, so their sales efforts, frankly, are lost on me.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

I wonder if the different departments on the "all-inclusive" lines develop techniques to get people to not drink alcohol or to not go on free shore excursions or special events and not eat as much of the expensive meals. The higher costs of those cruises (and the lack of large casinos or art auctions) may mean that those lines rely more on the booking fees for their profits rather than on-board spending. It was interesting to see how they do try to make a profit on NCL. It would be interesting to know how the different cruise lines differ, and which lines are the most profitable--high-volume low-cost Carnival; higher-cost premium-class Holland America; or highest-cost all-inclusive Seabourn.

[scopewest]

I enjoyed seeing how they want us to spend money on board, but did it bother me? Nah. My grocery store has its tricks to get me to spend more too.

[penetangjudy]

On the Eurodam 2 weeks ago it was stated that the cabin stewards get $4 of the auto tip, so theirs went up.

[jimmy2x]

[quote name=SDHALFAN;18786754

 

Now' date=' as to having "to be polite and smile at utter twits" - please see my last post. The members of our Armed Forces (and no doubt yours also) not only have to be polite and smile at those utter twits but they have to salute them also if said "twit" is of a higher rank - how degrading must that feel if one thinks said "superior" is honestly a twit?

 

Valerie:D[/quote]

 

Military personnel (at least in the Navy) understand that they are saluting the rank - not the individual. That being said, over my twenty year Naval career, the number of outstanding officers that I served with far outweighed the occasional "twit". And rest assured the "twits" were always well aware of our opinion.;)

 

CPO, USN, Retired

[BruceMuzz]

LOL ... my guess is that it wasn't HAL that discontinued the practice, but rather probably Park West. Maybe they weren't making enough money on HAL ships to justify it any longer. Let's face it, according to that special, the cruise line gets a 20% cut on Park West's onboard sales. I don't for one minute think HAL kicked Park West off. That's a lot of change!

 

I also found interesting the fact that cabin stewards make $2,500 per month. I always knew they were well-paid ... after all, what idiot would leave his family for months at a time to work on a ship if he wasn't well-paid? And, please don't misunderstand me ... I'm not saying they don't deserve that money, but just remember what they are getting every month the the next time you feel sorry for them and think they are so overworked. $2,500 a month is not a bad piece of change for someone who, I would assume, has a relatively low level of job skills, and has all of their living expenses covered. Don't forget, they don't pay taxes on that $2,500 either. Take a look now at someone who lives in your neighborhood ... maybe a kid who is trying to earn some money over the summer months for college or starting his first job after high school. I doubt very, very strongly he is making anywhere near that, especially after taxes and living expenses.

 

Finally, I wasn't at all surprised to see that the one area on the ship that did not make their sales goal for the week was shore excursions. I figured that area wouldn't be profitable, especially on a Caribbean cruise. They tried to blame it on the weather, but I doubt the weather was entirely responsible. That particular sailing looked to me to be a "family-type" cruise and I honestly don't think too many families are willing to dump $300 or more for a shore excursion in each port. Where shore excursions could be profitable, and probably are, would be on more exotic itineraries such as Europe. There it is often easier just to do the cruise line's excursion rather than have to do all the work to set up your own.

 

Overall, though, I found it to be a great show and I enjoyed it. I honestly didn't learn anything from it that I didn't know, however. Of course, the cruise lines are in business to make money. Did anyone doubt that? I don't think Andy Steward was telling us anything we didn't already know. And of course onboard spending can make or break them each cruise.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again ... I think these cruise lines made a big mistake years ago ... and it really hasn't very much to do with our current economy. They simply are building too many ships, without retiring too many of them. This is leaving the cruise lines with tons of capacity which I think they are going to have a real problem filling in the coming years. Yes, I heard that figure bandied about ... something about only 17% of the population has cruised. Well, did the executives in the corner office ever consider that maybe that 17% figure is all they are going to get? Maybe the other 83% are not interested in cruising ... or at least 60% of them? As shocking as it may seem to us, there are lots of people who have no desire whatsoever to get on a boat, and there's nothing you could say or do to lure them onboard.

 

So yes, I found the show interesting, but think it could have gone much more in-depth. One hour is not enough, in my opinion, to present the whole picture. Perhaps this should have been a series running for a few weeks?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

You are correct about Park West. They left NCL and HAL due to the frugal passengers sailing on those lines. But not to worry, a new company is taking their place on both lines.

 

Well -paid is a relative term. For the $2,500, most cabin stewards are required to work 390 hours a month, with no days off - usually for 8 to 10 months. When you do the math, that comes to something just over $6 per hour. That's a good amount of money in some third world countries. But then they are forced to pay quite a bit of that to the agent who hired them. There are all sorts of training fees, hiring fees, and processing fees to pay before the crewmember even starts earning money. Many have to take out bank loans just to get the job. And you may be surprised to know that many of those third world countries do indeed collect income taxes from that money. The Philippines is the most notorious. They have a special Government agency (POEA) that requires cruise lines to send a large portion of the earnings of any Filipino employee back to the Philippines through his agent. The Agent first plays a few games with exchange rates and skims a healthy chunk of that money for himself. He then reports the remainder to the Philippine Government for taxation purposes.

The government gets a good chunk for themselves. There isn't too much left when the family in the Philippines gets the leftovers.

Burma, Indonesia, and China are even worse.

 

Many of the cabin stewards on my ship have advanced university degrees and speak several languages. Hardly the same as an american kid looking for his first job after High School.

 

Those multi-million dollar surveys my company pays for regularly tell us that although only 13.1 million North Americans will cruise this year, there are about 24 million additional North Americans who plan to book a cruise in the next 36 months. Even if only half of them are telling the truth, they are out of luck. There are no available beds for them. If only 10% of them will actually try to book a cruise, there are still no beds currently available for them.

 

We have just begun to look at Asia. Currently our mainland Chinese passengers are a tiny fraction of our demographic. But interest in cruising is suddenly exploding in China. In 2005 the average Shanghainese family earned around US$1,200 per year. In 2009 that same family will earn around US$35,000. These are the people who really have no taxes to worry about and very low living expenses. It's all disposible income.

This year the Chinese Government made it very easy and very inexpensive for Chinese nationals to obtain passports and exit visas fomr China. The flood is just about ot begin.

This new middle class in China is much larger than the entire population of the USA. We are just beginning to see 1000% increases in Chinese cruise passengers. And they don't mind spending money on a cruise.

You are going to see many new cruise ships heading to China over the next several years.

 

If those high paid consultants and survey companies are correct, we will have a shortage of berths on cruise ships for at least the next 2 decades - no matter how fast and how big we build them.

[brucory]

There are no available beds for them. If only 10% of them will actually try to book a cruise, there are still no beds currently available for them.

 

Are you kidding? All I can see in my inbox is super discounted cruises. It is unprecedented. There are berths available on every sailing...

 

If the demand is there, the ships will move to Asia, or the Chinese will travel to see Europe, the MED, the Panama Canal, Alaska, and the rest of the world...

 

And the world turns...

 

:D:D:D

[BruceMuzz]

Are you kidding? All I can see in my inbox is super discounted cruises. It is unprecedented. There are berths available on every sailing...

 

If the demand is there, the ships will move to Asia, or the Chinese will travel to see Europe, the MED, the Panama Canal, Alaska, and the rest of the world...

 

And the world turns...

 

:D:D:D

 

No, I'm not kidding. It is a bit premature to expect all the cruise lines to re-locate to Asia this year, but that is the major point of many conversations in many cruise line head offices this year.

 

It is far easier right now for the major players to re-play their post 9-11 sales strategies - which were very successful. This is a no-brainer that works. Moving ships to Asia is still in the planning stage, and needs further research and development. When a mass market company wants to switch it's primary customer base from American/Western to Asian, the details and logistics that must be considered and worked out are enormously complex. MSC, Royal Caribbean, P&O, and Princess are just experimenting over there right now, and learning as fast as they can. Carnival keeps trying to jump in, but is still very cautious.

 

Right now, there are indeed berths available NEARLY UP TO many sailings. The mass market is very cautious at this point and booking very close to sailing time. They don't want to tie up funds or credit any longer than absolutely necessary. A very similar thing happened just after 9-11.

And just like after 9-11, nearly every ship is sailing fully booked, every week.