Unbelievable - In A Good Way! - DRESS CODE

[TomTN]

Gee are you saying that if you wore a dark suit in an environment that requires a dark suit that you would be intentionally intimidating others by acquiescing to the dress guidelines? :confused:

 

I am saying the dress guidelines were the direct result of the desire to intimidate taxpayers. The reason was that a book that was written advised such because it presented a position of power. Previously we always wore suits, but we were not told exactly the color or the tie color. NO brown suits(weakness). It was made clear to us that our superiors believed in the book, and that is why we were directed to wear the dark suits with red ties.

What is an environment that would require a dark suit? Is there a reason a tax auditor should wear a dark suit with a white shirt and a red tie? I don't believe agents have to wear suits anymore.

 

I thought it was psychological BS then, and I am glad to see the business uniform die. those who desire to wear a suit still can, but in most places it is no longer required.

 

The only people I see in suits today are attorneys.:eek:

[mgcarnut]

This may date me but I remember having to dress up to go shopping or to fly on an airplane!

 

That dates me too...I grew up as an airline brat (Dad flew for United from 1946-1977) and I spent many happy hours on DC-6s, DC-7s, Convairs, and the first generation jets. We would usually get a first class upgrade by just paying the extra tax (I seem to remember it was $4 for a transcontinental flight). It would have been unthinkable for us to board an airplane without at least a sport jacket and tie, and dresses for the ladies. Long after I stopped getting free passes, I still dressed nicely when I flew.

 

I have a British buddy (he's around 65) who worked on cars as a teenager back in England. He mentioned that he had an "old" wool sport jacket and tie that he would change into when he was wrenching! He would have never gone outside without a jacket and tie.

 

That might be going a bit too far, in my opinion. But I still miss the dressing up for restaurants, concerts, and flying on airplanes. What it did was make such activities "special". Now, flying is just like riding on a bus.

 

Cheers,

mgcarnut

[TomTN]

That dates me too...I grew up as an airline brat (Dad flew for United from 1946-1977) and I spent many happy hours on DC-6s, DC-7s, Convairs, and the first generation jets. We would usually get a first class upgrade by just paying the extra tax (I seem to remember it was $4 for a transcontinental flight). It would have been unthinkable for us to board an airplane without at least a sport jacket and tie, and dresses for the ladies. Long after I stopped getting free passes, I still dressed nicely when I flew.

 

I have a British buddy (he's around 65) who worked on cars as a teenager back in England. He mentioned that he had an "old" wool sport jacket and tie that he would change into when he was wrenching! He would have never gone outside without a jacket and tie.

 

That might be going a bit too far, in my opinion. But I still miss the dressing up for restaurants, concerts, and flying on airplanes. What it did was make such activities "special". Now, flying is just like riding on a bus.

 

Cheers,

mgcarnut

 

My impression is the bus seats are wider. At least if you're flying cattle class.:)

[Cote d'or]

High dollar jeans and bling do not make you formal, get over your selves and join the program, let me tell you, no one on the cruise cares that you' are an individual, if the code of the day says dress is formal, then DRESS FORMAL, If you don't like it, stay in your cabin or choose another cruise. Jeez it ain't that tuff. You don't make the rules, Pick the rules and requirements for the iteniary you want, if you don't like the lay of the land, DON"t CHOOSE THAT PATICULAR CRUISE, but most importantantly don't try to change the way it is, "smoke on your own balcony"," wear what ever you want to dinner", a lot of people paid the same price for the cruise, and expect to receive want they paid for.

 

Wow.... heavy language. Isn't it all about common sense and in the first place : good taste ?

Since you keep hammering on 'the rules', according to you :

 

a. These gentlemen who are wearing a "tuxedo" are allowed in the dining room (believe me, I've seen this kind of dressing more than once) :

 

 

 

And also according to you, this elegant lady is not welcome in the dining room on a smart casual evening, since she is wearing "jeans" (Oh my God !!!) :

 

 

If this lady showed up at your table, would your cruise be ruined ? It must be, according to the tone of your post. Geez.

[tampacruiser]

Wow...its amazing how this topic gets everyone so worked up......It's clothing people...who cares...you are on vacation....lighten up, have fun, I used to wear a suit and tie to work and to church, now I don't...."the times are a changing" ....you can spend your time on here arguing the merits of dress or you can read the book "Who Moved My Cheese" and learn how to deal with change!

[Cote d'or]

It's indeed 'just' clothing. Wat amazes me the most, is how some people react on the word "jeans". It has the same effect as a crucifix on a vampire, or a bright light on a Gizmo.:eek:

[FinelyCruising]

I am saying the dress guidelines were the direct result of the desire to intimidate taxpayers. The reason was that a book that was written advised such because it presented a position of power. Previously we always wore suits, but we were not told exactly the color or the tie color. NO brown suits(weakness). It was made clear to us that our superiors believed in the book, and that is why we were directed to wear the dark suits with red ties.

What is an environment that would require a dark suit? Is there a reason a tax auditor should wear a dark suit with a white shirt and a red tie? I don't believe agents have to wear suits anymore.

 

I thought it was psychological BS then, and I am glad to see the business uniform die. those who desire to wear a suit still can, but in most places it is no longer required.

 

The only people I see in suits today are attorneys.:eek:

 

We have dress codes at work and it surely is not to intimidate anyone. It is about suits and appropriate and proper attire, its about class and a higher standard and there is no one here that complains one minute about it and we are not attorneys. If we don't want to follow the rules, I guess we really don't belong here then.

 

Now one could argue, like many, many do that I am not at work and that's is the point to not having to dress up, its my vacation not my job requirement....well that has been the argument all along EXCEPT there is a dress code on the ship, apparently its needed to maintain some level of minimal conformity these days. For Celebrity, because it is mass market and so diverse in its demographics, the issue will continue to present itself as a result, and there is no doubt the guidelines have diminished over time as a result of the need to open up their ships to more people on a less selective basis. The difficulty at this point in time is that the gap is getting to broad and I think that's important, as cruisers willingness to tolerate may begin to diminish further as the reduced minimum standard has been unenforced.

 

To the OP's comments, I agree yes, over time alot has changed and the kind of comfort in pride in knowing that people had in going out in public venues has gone with the times too. And it's by choice. So it's not new that the issue of what people decide to dress in when in public venues, such as when on cruise ships, often reflects their personal standards combined with the wisdom of assessing the enviroment they will be in and reacting as is outlined by at least maintaining the minimum standard.

[nadalina]

Times did change. Personally I think a pair of $400 Armani jeans is a lot dressier than a $100 Ross Dress For Less Tuxedo.

 

Hi, Florisdekort. By any chance are you European? It's funny but my SO and I have had this same conversation and disagreement so many times. He is European and feels the same way you do, but I am American and feel like others before me have said: blue jeans are blue jeans..... I don't care if they are Armani or Lee. Several times in our 13 years together we have been going out to a very nice restaurant for dinner and he comes out in Armani or Hugo Boss jeans. If we are in the U.S., I ask him to change, but if we are in Europe, then he's fine. I just think Europeans have a totally different view from Americans about this subject, at least for the majority of us. Don't mean to speak for anyone other than myself.... just my personal opinion.

 

Peggy

[gillianrose]

He's Dutch.

[lucky white heather]

We have dress codes at work and it surely is not to intimidate anyone. It is about suits and appropriate and proper attire, its about class and a higher standard and there is no one here that complains one minute about it and we are not attorneys. If we don't want to follow the rules, I guess we really don't belong here then.

 

Now one could argue, like many, many do that I am not at work and that's is the point to not having to dress up, its my vacation not my job requirement....well that has been the argument all along EXCEPT there is a dress code on the ship, apparently its needed to maintain some level of minimal conformity these days. For Celebrity, because it is mass market and so diverse in its demographics, the issue will continue to present itself as a result, and there is no doubt the guidelines have diminished over time as a result of the need to open up their ships to more people on a less selective basis. The difficulty at this point in time is that the gap is getting to broad and I think that's important, as cruisers willingness to tolerate may begin to diminish further as the reduced minimum standard has been unenforced.

 

To the OP's comments, I agree yes, over time alot has changed and the kind of comfort in pride in knowing that people had in going out in public venues has gone with the times too. And it's by choice. So it's not new that the issue of what people decide to dress in when in public venues, such as when on cruise ships, often reflects their personal standards combined with the wisdom of assessing the enviroment they will be in and reacting as is outlined by at least maintaining the minimum standard.

 

This is it in a nutshell!

[mgcarnut]

I agree. How our society has changed.

 

I was at that World's Fair. I was a toddler, very well dressed and being held tight by my father, who was wearing a suit and coat. It was quite cold. My siblings were dressed well, and my mother was in a dress and coat.

 

That was Kennedy era. Can you imagine people going into nice restaurants then, the way they do on cruises? I wonder what they'll be wearing in 75 years?

 

Maybe things will continue to go backward, and we'll have animal skins and clubs.;)

 

For those of you who were lucky enough to go to the NY Worlds Fair in 64-65, who remembers those WONDERFUL Belgian Waffles with the strawberries and powdered sugar!!!! You could buy them from vendors all over the fair. Texed would be in seventh heaven with those!

 

Cheers,

mgcarnut

[woodofpine]

Times have changed! Today, clothes are more comfortable and more colorful. Styles are more varied and expressive than ever - in casualware or formalware - you name it.

 

I remember as a youngster wearing my jacket, white shirt, and tie on an Olympic Airways flight from recently renamed JFK airport to Athens. Comfortable "good old days" - ? - we taxied onto the runway for a 90 minute delay and waited, without a/c, as the cigar and Greek tobacco smokers lite up and filled that 707's fuselage until you could barely see across the aisle... Good times! Good old days...

 

Colorful nostalgia, I don't know about liners back back in the 'good old' days. But - not only were the shirts white, but so was the skin - it you wanted to check into a 'better' hotel or restaurant in Charleston, Atlanta, or New Orleans! Yah - those were the days! Society sure has changed. And speaking of color, now a-days, if your wife or kids don't dress 'appropriately', the reactions when you backen their eye or whip'em with your belt. Back in the day, you got a knowing nod or a wink. Standards sure have slipped... :mad:

[FinelyCruising]

Colorful nostalgia, I don't know about liners back back in the 'good old' days. But - not only were the shirts white, but so was the skin - it you wanted to check into a 'better' hotel or restaurant in Charleston, Atlanta, or New Orleans! Yah - those were the days! Society sure has changed. And speaking of color, now a-days, if your wife or kids don't dress 'appropriately', the reactions when you backen their eye or whip'em with your belt. Back in the day, you got a knowing nod or a wink. Standards sure have slipped... :mad:

 

I think you might have flipped.

[Veronica13]

I think you might have flipped.

 

I second that.

[chrisinroch]

I saw a show about a french liner pre WWII. There was color footage of a street scene in NYC.....

 

Everybody is wearing jackets, hats, ties, dresses

 

Nobody is fat.

[TomTN]

Times have changed! Today, clothes are more comfortable and more colorful. Styles are more varied and expressive than ever - in casualware or formalware - you name it.

 

I remember as a youngster wearing my jacket, white shirt, and tie on an Olympic Airways flight from recently renamed JFK airport to Athens. Comfortable "good old days" - ? - we taxied onto the runway for a 90 minute delay and waited, without a/c, as the cigar and Greek tobacco smokers lite up and filled that 707's fuselage until you could barely see across the aisle... Good times! Good old days...

 

Colorful nostalgia, I don't know about liners back back in the 'good old' days. But - not only were the shirts white, but so was the skin - it you wanted to check into a 'better' hotel or restaurant in Charleston, Atlanta, or New Orleans! Yah - those were the days! Society sure has changed. And speaking of color, now a-days, if your wife or kids don't dress 'appropriately', the reactions when you backen their eye or whip'em with your belt. Back in the day, you got a knowing nod or a wink. Standards sure have slipped... :mad:

 

Perhaps we should make an international law that everything should be in the USA a sit was 40-50 years ago. that would be so nice.

[Loracpin2]

In 1959 my grandparents sailed from New York to Italy. I was 12 years old. They sailed again in 1963 and once again in 1966. They sailed on the Italian Lines ships in first class. Each time I watched as my grandmother pack their steamer trunks with evening clothes because they were required to wear formal every evening. I never heard either one of my grandparents "bitch" because there was a dress code. It's what made the experience special. In fact, I can still the brown lace gown my granmother had made for the sailing in 1966 because she wore it to my wedding in 1968. I won't even get into the fact that we all dressed up to go to the Bon Voyage parties they had each time they sailed.

 

We took our first cruise on the Home Lines in 1981. While we only had 2 formal nights, the dress code for the other 5 nights was a jacket and tie for the men. The dress code was the same on our first 6 Celebrity cruises. I never recall anyone "bitch" about this either. It's what made the experience special.

 

I know I'll get flamed for this, but the experience isn't as special any more. I don't think there is anything wrong with a suggested dress code and then ENFORCING it.

[woodofpine]

Perhaps we should make an international law that everything should be in the USA a sit was 40-50 years ago. that would be so nice.

 

I'll pass on the nonsense of nostalgia...

 

Eco-system health notwithstanding, just about everything is better today than it used to be... including the clothing. In the 50's and 60's, people dressed to the standard of the day. Guess what? They still do. I'll take today's clothes and standards of dress over yesteryear's any day of the week.

 

I'm OK with formal night dress codes - but trying to draw special 'meaning' or relevance from them is akin to asking Heidi Klum for an interpretation of the life of Mother Theresa...

 

Yep - its that silly.

[Ommadawn]

I think you might have flipped.

 

 

He's using an intense mode of sarcasm, I believe, combined with wry wit, via extremism (a la "A Modest Proposal").

 

Personally, I like dressing up for formal occasions, but then again, I hardly ever have the opportunity. I will be wearing my Tuxedo with tails and a real, proper bow tie. I can't wait. :) :) :)

[Veronica13]

. The difficulty at this point in time is that the gap is getting to broad and I think that's important, as cruisers willingness to tolerate may begitn to diminish further as the reduced minimum standard has been unenforced.

 

I think that's it in a nutshell Finely. Cruisers seeing "suggestions" that were implemented for the ambiance of the cruise as "rules" and therefore ignore them or defy them. We see them as the ship's way of suggesting dress codes, the same way as a 5 star restaurant in NYC might. You're not at work there either. But you are elevating the experience to that of your surroundings.

 

I have always had respect for the cruiselines "suggestions" and ONCE in all my cruises, on the Ruby, I didn't want to go to dinner, and put on shorts and a shirt just to walk around the outside decks on formal night. I actually felt so uncomfortable, I went back to my cabin. Guess it's hardwired in me to show respect for my "host". It's the way I was raised.

[TomTN]

I'll pass on the nonsense of nostalgia...

 

Eco-system health notwithstanding, just about everything is better today than it used to be... including the clothing. In the 50's and 60's, people dressed to the standard of the day. Guess what? They still do. I'll take today's clothes and standards of dress over yesteryear's any day of the week.

 

I'm OK with formal night dress codes - but trying to draw special 'meaning' or relevance from them is akin to asking Heidi Klum for an interpretation of the life of Mother Theresa...

 

Yep - its that silly.

 

Oops, I failed to apply that little wink thing at the end of my post. Sorry.

In general things have change for the better. Concerning dress it is very obvious that few people wear suits to work now.

 

I recall wearing our poplin suits in the southeast 35-40 years ago. They sure beat the hell out of light wool during our Sauna like summers. Those were the good old days.;)

[woodofpine]

Most of today's ships are at least twice the size of ships of the 50's and 60's... SS Norway/France and QEII were the exception; Regal Empress at less than 20,000 GRT defines the rule catch her before SOLAS does her in....

 

http://www.maritimematters.com/regalempress7.html

 

Trust me - the pictures do her greater justice than she deserves. My first cruise was on Epirotiki Semiramus 3,000 GRT...

 

My point being is that todays big ships are stunning, and they must be filled fiscally. The ships are generally speaking single class. Given the 'supersized' reality and affordable fares in today's cruise industry, the overall condition of passengers - dress etc. has held up amazingly well; particularly if you strip off the selective memory of 1st class only nostalgia and average out the historical conditions on ships. I wouldn't switch ships for a 'true' 50's-60's vintage cruise.

 

The true reality is that after the age of sail, during the first half of the 20th C., ship conditions were a pretty gritty mixed bag with a veneer of luxury on a small scale for a few passengers. After WWII conditions on ships improved with the economy. But when the Boeing 707 came on line at the end of the 50's, ocean liners were doomed. In an effort to distinguish themselves in the jet age, a renewed push for high opulence occurred. That's what people pine for... that brief period between the Boeing 707's intro and the formation of Carnival Corp. (1972) in other words... the dying last hurrah of ocean liners...

 

(That opulence is still available on smaller hulls too - just pay up!)

 

But that brief 10-15 year period isn't representative of the history of passenger ocean transport; objectively, it was a period of severe decline.

 

I'm quite content with today's ships and values. Plus, the clothing is more comfortable and colorful too. ;)

[Rick-cruiser]

I went to that 1964 World's Fair too:) I was 6 at the time and I

can honestly say I do not remember what I wore;)

 

Wish I had seen that special....are they going to repeat it?

 

 

Lois ~ here's a link to a small portion of the special on YouTube:

On this page you'll find related videos as well.

 

I, too, remember our family trip to the '64 World's Fair!

 

 

For Lois and Anne, and everyone else who's interested....

 

This show is going to be repeated again... this Friday night, at 10PM Eastern Standard Time. Check your local listings...it is on PBS.

 

In New York, this is channel 21 (same channel... 21... using Directv; if you use a different dish, or cable, it may be on a different channel). Also, if you have a DVR system, or can do a search on a particular program, the title of the program is "1964 World's Fair".

 

- Rick

[Lois R]

Thanks Rick:)

[FinelyCruising]

(That opulence is still available on smaller hulls too - just pay up!)

 

I don't agree that opulence is associated by the size of the ship. I do think that smaller ships with a casual dress standard and no formal nights have a different demographic based on price points, but I don't consider those ships opulent.

 

I'm not certain that anyone waxing nostalgic is asking for opulence when it comes to Celebrity. But sticking with your train of thought, size matters when it comes to demographics, but not when it comes to opulence; that atmosphere can occur on a ship of any size.

 

And at the risk of that term being a turn off as in sounding gauche or haughty, I think most are really just looking for a comfortable and friendly environment that does not invite stand outs far outside the mainstream.

 

Veronica's example of feeling out of place in her comfortable dress down is an excellent illustration of the internal discomfort that resulted from going that far outside of the box when the environment was other than what she wanted it to be.

 

Was she intentionally disprepectful? No, she adaped to the alternate opportunites available and in place for those who opt out.

 

Was she viewed as a renegade, potentially.

 

Would another person have thought twice about being in exactly the same movie as Veronica? Potentially no. They might be thinking I'm not going to stress about this, whatever, I'll dress comfortable and its my vacation.

 

So we circle back to the never ending cycle that continues as a result of the difference between those who give a s***, and those that don't.