Please rename the HSC or even change the system

Alright...I know people seem to like to discuss the HSC. But it always seems so awfully black and white. So I would like to share my own lengthy opinion on the HSC based on my first HAL cruise.

It is probably more of a blog than an actual thread...but I would just like to share it.

I'm from Europe, so basically I am not really used to 'tipping as a compensation for low salaries'. We only tend to consider tipping if people are prepared to go the extra mile.

And that's where confusion sets in. HAL calls its 'salary compensation system' a 'Hotel Service Charge'. So basically the name seems to link the HSC amount to 'Service'.

But what is 'Service'? Well...at least in NW Europe, doing your job well basically comes with your job description. So cleaning the room, providing clean sheets, preparing meals; that's the minimum of what can be expected. For most of us 'service' basically comes down to the aforementioned 'extra-mile'.

E.g.: I once had to wait more than 10 minutes for my 'fast food'. I didn't complain at all, but MickeyD decided to just give me an ice cream cone for the wait.

E.g: Another true McDonald's story: the price of a certain meal had just gone up. Unfortunately, I came 20 cents short, so I just apologised and basically felt immensily stupid. But when I walked away, this girl just said to me: 'oh, that's fine...you can have it for...' and I was allowed to pay 20 cents less.

So what about my HAL cruise? Didn't they deliver?

Well, to be honest: some did a great job. But not by going the extra mile, but just by being genuinely kindhearted. I made sure to 'compliment' them 1 on 1, and through the survey (hopefully this worked out well).

But my first few days on the ship were not that great...

Day 1:

-sheets were not clean at all. Blood and other awkward stains were quite noticeable.

-television didn't function properly

-every single time I came across an employee, I heard the same basic: "hello Sir, how are you today?". But when I actually stopped to say how I was doing and ask them how THEY were doing, it was blatantly clear that all these greetings were just -excuse me- fake as Hell. Most of them didn't even bother to listen to my response.

-we took the tour of the Spa, and well...still not sure if it was a tour of the Spa. Could have been anything. Our 'tour guide' just didn't master the English language. And that isn't a way too harsh comment towards someone with a heavy accent or limited vocabulary. nope, you just couldn't understand a word she was saying. Except the word 'dollar' at the end of every other sentence.

-In the MDR for dinner, I (and the other 3 of my company) had to wait at the table for 45 minutes after the actual order before the first course arrived. After 1.5 hours we got the main course and finally got some sort of apology. But this was just: 'oh..it's crowded'. No explanation why everyone around us, who arrived later got their courses way earlier. No compensation like @McD by just offering a glass of wine or at least get us the requested glass of lemonade for my sister.

Night1/Day2:

-seaday, so we were planning to get up late. But no..... 2 hours before we planned to get up, we heard someone knocking on the door (around 6/6:30) Room service. Jolly good show!

-I already posted once about my private eye business, trying to solve this 'erroneous room service mystery'. I solved it later by checking the room service label of several rooms in our hallway. I identified the problem eventually: some guest with terrible handwriting. So I knocked on the guest's door twice. No response. I explained the situation to a crew member passing by, and asked her to contact this guest for me. She wouldn't.

Then I asked her to at least change his handwriting to avoid any further mistakes. She wouldn't either and suggested to do it myself. No service whatsoever.

Btw...I changed his unreadable 6 and left him a nice message. Luckily, he was quite pleasant and we became like cruise 'pen pals'. Ehhhmmm...seriously...at least he truly was genuinely friendly about the issue and we were able to solve the issue by leaving eachother short messages. Quite fun actually!

-lunch: I went to the Lido for lunch. oh my gosh, that was way too crowded! No organisation whatsoever, just total chaos. Couldn't the crew just help by assigning tables or something? We just went outside to wait for it to calm down.

-pool: we were hanging out near the pool. But some really young kids just treated the entire area as a soccer pitch. They just kicked the ball randomly throughout the pool area. It was really annoying, but no one of the staff said anything about it.

-lunch cont'd: Back inside we found ourselves a table and things were more quiet fortunately.

I just stood by my table, waiting for the other three of my company to come back with some food.

And then I suddenly found myself flat on the ground. Adult volleyball-player sized male on the ground, screaming in pain. It all happened way too fast. I was run over by an electric scooter from behind. A metal part hit me right on the spot where our Greek hero Achilles knew everything about.

I literally couldn't get up for like a minute or two. The evil invalid (sorry for the lame name...hope it doesn't offend anyone) didn't apologise or anything and basically drove away at the speed of light. I tried to check my injury while on the ground by removing my shoe, while still in pain. I even yelled at the evil invalid while she vanished: "don't you have any manners!!??"

FOUR!!! waiters (and some basic Lido staff serving food, but I don't blame them) were standing three feet away from me, doing absolutely nothing. They didn't come to check or ask how I was doing. They didn't stop our evil invalid. They did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!

Luckily, my sister is a M.D. and checked whether or not anything was broken. It was awfully painful, but she reckoned the worst thing that could have happened was a rupture of some Medical term I don't recall.

But I couldn't walk well for the following three days and even a month after the incident you can still clearly identify the scar tissue.

After this incident I couldn't stay for lunch anymore. I had to return to my room and take care of my injury. But I was really genuinely sad. I couldn't see 'Service' anywhere, and was hurting.

So, on my way to my room, I arrived -walking as a drunken sailor- at the Front Office. I explained the 'lunch'-situation and how I was in pain. In a really sad and calm way (due to the circumstances) I explained that I was really dissappointed in the provided service.

The FO's crew member was really nice and expected me to remove the HSC. I felt really bad about lowering other people's income so I asked her for another way. Couldn't for example my room steward get the entire package and couldn't it target the Lido waiters who were present exclusively. She said the system didn't work like that, but she would add the specific reason why the HSC would be removed, making sure management would know I was actually quite happy with the other crew.

Of course I wasn't really happy with the other crew, but I didn't feel the other incidents would justify my decision, given the impact on their salaries. The actual injury was another matter entirely though...

I eventually requested ice to cool and didn't remove my HSC. I altered it. By what amount? Well...I still paid over 50% of the original amount if you're really that interested.

I also made sure the HSC of my roommate wasn't altered. (And of course my other two family members still paid there amount in full as well). I had to request this specifically as the FO employee said it would normally change the HSC of everyone in the same room.

In the end, did a manager or someone else contact me? NO.

I even told the same story all over again in the survey and how I felt the HSC system should be altered (but in the meantime complementing those who were actually quite good). Did they call me or anything? NO.

HAL imo just saw this as an 'easy way out'. I really would have appreciated a small gesture. Maybe then I would even have felt differently at the end of the cruise and have cancelled my alteration. But I just felt like a random number.

In conclusion:

Well, maybe it's me, but to me the HSC fails because of several reasons:

-Ambiguity. What exactly is the HSC? Is it truly linked to 'service' or just a way to keep cruise fares low and increase Hal's profits...?

-Management not taking responsibilty PLEASE just make sure you pay your workers the right amount of money and make sure as management that the quality is excellent and problems are solved.

Now they just transfer some of their responsibility to the passenger. It seems to be like this: If you're genuinely dissatisfied, you may alter or even remove the HSC. But that's YOUR call and YOUR burden to bear. And please remember that YOU (the passenger) will be responsible for their crappy salaries. And luckily, WE as management won't have to compensate you as a passenger. It won't cost HAL one single dime. It will just hurt our precious Indonesian and Phil crew.

Sorry....but that's just bad management. No way I can endorse or defend such a company culture.

Why didn't a manager come to me and say: "let me take a look at your wound...oh I am truly sorry about that, and wil make sure we will take the right action to minimise chances of something like this happening again. I read about your reservations altering the HSC...well.... I promise you to take care of this and in the meantime you and your 3 travel companions may enjoy one meal in the Pinnacle Grill. Generally far less crowded, so a lot safer for you!" :):)

-Over-generalisation.... Oh...and please remember there is NO way within our system you can say: "X and Y underperformed, but the others performed okay, so please make sure only X and Y don't get the HSC.

And don't give me the standard black&white "but you don't even see a lot of your hard-working crew" comment. That's what managers would like to hear. Because, truth is, if you can really pinpoint those who underperformed. EVERYONE else could be able to still get the original HSC. It just is simple Calculus: I am okay enough with everyone's performance MINUS X and Y. Since everyone includes crew behind the scenes, I really don't see the problem.

-'Smile and be fake, for HSC's sake' crew who don't dare to address kids/parents who make a mess of the pool area. crew who don't seem to dare to stop the culprit when someone is run over by an electric scooter. crew who just seem to greet you in a really uninterested manner.

Of course not everyone was like that, but to be honest it seemed to be the majority. And I DON'T BLAME THEM. Doing stuff that might upset passengers, might eventually lower your salary...!!?? So just keep smiling and safeguard your HSC.

Maybe this post comes across as harsh. But to be honest, it is more of a general feeling of sadness which can be interpreted as being harsh.

I love the sea and I was the one who got my family excited to join me on a cruise. They still had quite a great cruise, so I actually had fun as well eventually, because I noticed the amount of fun they were having! :)

But in the meantime, I couldn't shake this feeling of sadness. I couldn't walk well due to my injury, and felt my cruise wasn't nearly as great as it should have been.

However, besides these direct consequences of the incident, I strongly felt HAL left me another burden to bear as well. The burden of the HSC. And I really think this shouldn't have been the case. Someone of the management should have come to talk with me.

Do I still expect HAL to contact me? No...what's done is done. But it helped writing all of this down. I am doing fine now and my cruise still was quite okay. Truth is, although I even might try and hope for a better HAL cruise in the future. And if that happens, I hopefully will willingly pay the full HSC ;)

Sorry for this convoluted mess :p

To me "service" is whenever someone does something for me ... serves me a drink or a meal, "services" my cabin etc ... whether it falls within their basic job function or not, and Hotel Service Charge is the perfect term.

.

I almost always tip extra over the HSC.

So here we go again. All black and white.

Someone saying how he always pays more, someone just stating the obvious.

Maybe my post isn't of War Poet quality, but I think it's sad when it just gets downgraded to 'flamebait', which by any standards, it clearly is not.

:(

On our first night on Maasdam, we joined a group of 6 we didn't know. Our service was terrible. We complained to the Manager and the next night we were in the Pinnacle. Our waiter from the previous night sought us out to apologize and so did the MDR manager. He bought us a bottle of wine.

We did not eat in the MDR the rest of the cruise.

Glenn:cool:

On our first night on Maasdam, we joined a group of 6 we didn't know. Our service was terrible. We complained to the Manager and the next night we were in the Pinnacle. Our waiter from the previous night sought us out to apologize and so did the MDR manager. He bought us a bottle of wine.

 

We did not eat in the MDR the rest of the cruise.

 

Glenn:cool:

That's actually pretty good. By those standards I might have gotten a 'your next cruise for free' offer. :p

Seriously, though... your example really strengthens my feelings towards my first HAL cruise. They did nothing for me... :(:confused:

I have also had the experienced where I found that members of the crew, especially the spa/exercise people, really had no interest in me at all even though they projected the pretense of being friendly while on duty. Don't even think of trying to talk to them out on deck when they are off duty. I had one walk away from me because I intruded on his off-time.

After a few cruises I now understand that the polite greetings are just part of their job, and that the passengers represent their work tasks. Occasionally our dinner waiter will engage us in personal conversation beyond the standard greetings.

igraf

...

-every single time I came across an employee, I heard the same basic: "hello Sir, how are you today?". But when I actually stopped to say how I was doing and ask them how THEY were doing, it was blatantly clear that all these greetings were just -excuse me- fake as Hell. Most of them didn't even bother to listen to my response.....

That's actually pretty good. By those standards I might have gotten a 'your next cruise for free' offer. :p

Seriously, though... your example really strengthens my feelings towards my first HAL cruise. They did nothing for me... :(:confused:

I wonder what type of room gsrunyan was in. It is highly unusual for Hal to make that big of a gesture.

As HAL moves out into more non-US markets, this system will probably change under its own weight. It is really the total cruise price, but disguised as something else.

Saw lines wrapping around the deck once on a ship full of Austraiians and New Zealanders who do not have the tradition of tipping, so they were at the front desk asking for these charges to be taken off on the final cruise day.

In Europe don't most restaurants automatically add a service charge? Why does the same system bother you on a ship?

It is interesting to think of all those people who serve us but never get any tips - grocery store clerks, people working in doctor's, dentists etc.

offices, the woman that puts all our mail in those super boxes, and on and on.

We are pensioners and don't have a large income so we don't cruise as often as we would like to so the HSC is a lot for us to come up with. It swallows all the money we could spend on tours etc.

The staff onboard get everything taken care of - food and lodging and uniforms and their own doctor. So why make it an automatic charge and not something people can do on their own according to the quality of service they do get?

On our next cruise they would not give us the OBC because we booked before they offered it and now this cruise is 2000 pp less than we paid - as they try to fill the cabins and they want us to pay the HSC on top of that?

It is interesting to think of all those people who serve us but never get any tips - grocery store clerks, people working in doctor's, dentists etc.

offices, the woman that puts all our mail in those super boxes, and on and on.

We are pensioners and don't have a large income so we don't cruise as often as we would like to so the HSC is a lot for us to come up with. It swallows all the money we could spend on tours etc.

 

The staff onboard get everything taken care of - food and lodging and uniforms and their own doctor. So why make it an automatic charge and not something people can do on their own according to the quality of service they do get?

 

On our next cruise they would not give us the OBC because we booked before they offered it and now this cruise is 2000 pp less than we paid - as they try to fill the cabins and they want us to pay the HSC on top of that?

Well, to be fair, it seems to be more of a 'salary compensation' than an actual tip. At least, that's how I see it.

The Indo/Phil work force don't get paid much by our standards, and this 'HSC' seems to raise their salaries to more acceptable levels.

For the record, I wasn't criticising the actual amount, but the way the system works. In a way I was even making a case for the Indo/Phil workforce. ;-)

But that seems to be the problem of this thread. I am probably completely sandwiched between those in favour of the current system (who don't want to hear about any change whatsoever) and those opposed to HSC (who will probably want to remove it in its entirety).

yep...this thread seems to have been a baaaaad decision

 

<snip>

For the record, I wasn't criticising the actual amount, but the way the system works. In a way I was even making a case for the Indo/Phil workforce. ;-)

 

But that seems to be the problem of this thread. I am probably completely sandwiched between those in favour of the current system (who don't want to hear about any change whatsoever) and those opposed to HSC (who will probably want to remove it in its entirety).

 

It's not that many are in favour, it's simply a matter that we have read the threads on this issue and there are reasons that it is done this way and it is to FAVOUR THE CREW and for their benefit.

As we go down the all too familiar trail that occurs on virtually every tipping thread on Cruise Critic (not just HAL), let's try to be realistic. HAL sails internationally far more than in the USA so its customers experience a variety of tipping policies in every port.

Just one example. In Paris you will encounter a service charge, usually 10%, that is added to a restaurant bill. When paying by cash it is the usual custom to leave an even amount and the staff gets the rounding. (Example, a EU45.00 bill is increased by 10% to Eu49.50. The standard is to leave Eu50.00. As an American I always feel uncomfortable doing that but my French associates tell me that this is the standard practice. BTW, I round up the same way when paying by credit card.)

In Indonesia, it's the same. In the Philippines it's the same. In the Caribbean, it's pretty much the US style simply because that's the primary source of tourism. I don't recall ever seeing an automatic tip in any Caribbean restaurant (or hotel, for that matter).

Because we have Indonesian staff, should we follow Indonesian (and European) custom or US custom when we're on a Mediterranean cruise?

Frankly I like the HSC so much more than HAL's former (and ambiguous) "Tipping Not Required" policy where we customers had no idea at all if we really should tip anyway, especially when tip envelopes were provided.

The really important aspect to all this is that the policies and the amounts of the HSC are clearly disclosed by HAL so there should not be any surprise at all.

Whether or not one should remove the HSC is a strictly personal decision that can't be resolved in an internet forum. Where I may feel the staff are underpaid and therefore pay the HSC regardless of service quality, others may feel this is the only way to address lousy service in a meaningful way.

To the OP, did you report to the infirmary and make a formal accident complaint?

i would assume HAL carries liability insurance for this sort of incident, but they would need some form of objective injury documentation. I am sorry the front office did not direct you to the infirmary to start this process and that you were not then contacted by their risk management team.

If they allow scooters on board this sort of accident must come with the territory from time to time. And let's assume this was indeed an accident, not an intentional assault. HAL should have not reluctance to deal with it.

And if HAL maintains inadequate aisle space to accommodate both the scooter and other passengers in normal public walkways, this too needs to be documented and remedied.

I never expect any crew member to be a comprehensive and final decision maker. They know part of their duties, have limited command of English, do smile and are pleasant but have no business being someones new BFF and expected to deliver comprehensive follow-through. It is just not type of a ship.

In fact, much of what you reported sounds like it was fairly normal - busy in the dining rooms the first few days, kids in the pool, etc. But it all settles out and sometimes takes an affirmative response by the passenger himself, to get things changed and not expect a crew member to initiate the full and desired response.

This is a known mass cruise line and one should not expect the allegedly anticipatory, intrusive, cloying and ultimately oppressive Crystal Cruise Line service standards on any HAL ship. Though for easily half the price one gets pretty darn close to an extremely pleasant cruise experience on all HAL ships.

Sorry your experience was so lacking for you. I don't blame you for being unhappy in your failed expectations.

We are retired and do not have unlimited income. We cruise because we love it and feel pampered the entire cruise, whether or not the crew is ultra attentive or just there when we need something. We like the HSC as we feel everyone that attended to us, even those we may not have noticed, are getting a tip. We then leave a tip for the people that do something we specifically request. I would not dream of taking it off our bill or not leaving something extra. It is, in my opinion, the cost of cruising

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1) If you are injured while onboard....have someone get a manager. Write up an injury report. DO NOT STAND AROUND IN THE LIDO...SIT DOWN TO WAIT FOR YOUR GROUP.

2) If your sheets are dirty have the steward change them....CALL HOUSEKEEPING. If the TV does not work properly....CALL THE FRONT DESK.

3) The people working on the ship are living where they work. IF THEY ARE NOT ON DUTY LEAVE THEM ALONE. If they want to chat let them come to you.

4) YOU ARE TOLD UPFRONT WHAT THE HOTEL SERVICE CHARGE IS. IT IS PART OF THE COST OF YOUR TRIP. Leave it alone. Can you remove the resort fee from a hotel visit on land?

If you have issues on the ship take it up with the department manager (you may have to bypass the front desk) if the issue is not resolved quickly and to your satisfaction. Then you can enjoy the rest of your trip.

To the OP, did you report to the infirmary and make a formal accident complaint?

 

i would assume HAL carries liability insurance for this sort of incident, but they would need some form of objective injury documentation. I am sorry the front office did not direct you to the infirmary to start this process and that you were not then contacted by their risk management team.

 

If they allow scooters on board this sort of accident must come with the territory from time to time. And let's assume this was indeed an accident, not an intentional assault. HAL should have not reluctance to deal with it.

 

And if HAL maintains inadequate aisle space to accommodate both the scooter and other passengers in normal public walkways, this too needs to be documented and remedied.

 

I never expect any crew member to be a comprehensive and final decision maker. They know part of their duties, have limited command of English, do smile and are pleasant but have no business being someones new BFF and expected to deliver comprehensive follow-through. It is just not type of a ship.

 

In fact, much of what you reported sounds like it was fairly normal - busy in the dining rooms the first few days, kids in the pool, etc. But it all settles out and sometimes takes an affirmative response by the passenger himself, to get things changed and not expect a crew member to initiate the full and desired response.

 

This is a known mass cruise line and one should not expect the allegedly anticipatory, intrusive, cloying and ultimately oppressive Crystal Cruise Line service standards on any HAL ship. Though for easily half the price one gets pretty darn close to an extremely pleasant cruise experience on all HAL ships.

 

Sorry your experience was so lacking for you. I don't blame you for being unhappy in your failed expectations.

Thank you :)

Regarding the first quote in bold:

The FO employee gave me the form on which I also had to describe the incident. Including the timeframe and location. But this already was the HSC-change form. Not a separate complaint form. Should it have been one?

I wasn't looking to sue them :p , but I was just shocked and had trouble walking at first. (Which by all means didn't mean I was an invalid; I just felt numb emotionally and my Achilles made sure I walked like a soccer player who just got tackled)

And the second part in bold:

Yep, I also mentioned that in the survey I received by mail :)

I am sorry all this happened to you. And I believe you.

If you were on the Zuiderdam this past summer, I am not too surprised. I found the service to be quite lacking in both the lido and the MDR for the 22 days I was on board. This was the first HAL cruise where we did not leave gratuities over and above the HSC. I do understand where you are coming from. However we did not reduce the automatic HSC added to our accout.

However, you should have gone to the Medical Center and reported the incident and filed and report. There is no excuse for a crew member not coming to your aid.

Terri

It is interesting to think of all those people who serve us but never get any tips - grocery store clerks, people working in doctor's, dentists etc.

offices, the woman that puts all our mail in those super boxes, and on and on.

We are pensioners and don't have a large income so we don't cruise as often as we would like to so the HSC is a lot for us to come up with. It swallows all the money we could spend on tours etc.

 

The staff onboard get everything taken care of - food and lodging and uniforms and their own doctor. So why make it an automatic charge and not something people can do on their own according to the quality of service they do get?

 

On our next cruise they would not give us the OBC because we booked before they offered it and now this cruise is 2000 pp less than we paid - as they try to fill the cabins and they want us to pay the HSC on top of that?

With all due respect all the people that you've listed in Canada get paid decently, especially the post office. I've been unemployed for over 7 months so I'm not exactly rolling in money. It never occurred to me to short change the hsc due to my situation. When it comes to that choice I will stay at home.

Thank you :)

 

Regarding the first quote in bold:

The FO employee gave me the form on which I also had to describe the incident. Including the timeframe and location. But this already was the HSC-change form. Not a separate complaint form. Should it have been one?

I wasn't looking to sue them :p , but I was just shocked and had trouble walking at first. (Which by all means didn't mean I was an invalid; I just felt numb emotionally and my Achilles made sure I walked like a soccer player who just got tackled)

 

And the second part in bold:

Yep, I also mentioned that in the survey I received by mail :)

It is not a matter of you wanting to sue them. It is just being fair to their standards of operation, for you to report what may be a way to a prevent the same kind of accident happening to others.

Alright...I know people seem to like to discuss the HSC. But it always seems so awfully black and white. So I would like to share my own lengthy opinion on the HSC based on my first HAL cruise.

It is probably more of a blog than an actual thread...but I would just like to share it.

 

I'm from Europe, so basically I am not really used to 'tipping as a compensation for low salaries'. We only tend to consider tipping if people are prepared to go the extra mile.

 

It is a Hotel Service Charge. I am pretty sure whenever we are in Europe and stay in a hotel, there are hotel charges on our bill.

The hard working crew members earn every penny from the HSC and some additional. Room stewards are probably the hardest working people on the ship.

It is a Hotel Service Charge. I am pretty sure whenever we are in Europe and stay in a hotel, there are hotel charges on our bill.

They were always added to European restaurant bills along with the "bread and cover" charges.

Always had to look or check for the abbreviations on the final bill that indicated the percentage tip had already been included. Servis enbegriffen (sp???) comes to mind in German, service complet (sp???) in French, servisio completo (???) in Italian etc.

Then one could or would round off the bill for "trinkgeld", "pourboire" etc - a gratuitous direct tip to the waiter in cash.

It's not that many are in favour, it's simply a matter that we have read the threads on this issue and there are reasons that it is done this way and it is to FAVOUR THE CREW and for their benefit.

For something to FAVOUR THE CREW the HSC should be included in the price of the cruise. The crew would then get at least some reasonable recompence over and above their board and lodging.

If you then felt that someone went over and above the requirement of their job description, you could then tip them extra. I find the US tipping culture of tipping everybody for everything that they do completely incomprehensible.