NCL DAWN sexual assult on 6/28...

[Cruisin 4 Ever]

[quote name='MissRabbit']oh good grief. You are not getting what i'm saying at all. How dare you say that about me. How dare you blame me for the sexual assaults not being reported. That has NOTHING to do with anything and you're just lashing out at me. If you knew me at all, knew my background, knew what i've been through... ungh..

*walks away before i say something i'll regret*[/quote]


What do you mean how dare someone say that about you. Youa re saying how she should have reacted. In situations like this, where the parents befriended this family, she was SHOCKED, humiliated, degraded. You do not react in the exact way someone like you thinks you would. I only hope you, or if you have children, never have to learn first hand that girls/women do not react to being violated in a logical manner when sickos violate them.

[Crusin6]

[quote name='boyle0268']Are you kidding me??? This is an 18 year old girl we are talking about here Out for dinner with her parents. He is a sick old pervernt and his wife should be ashamed of herself for being with a creep like that. Attitudes like "she should have said something" are what give sexual predators the idea it's ok to violate others. 18 year olds are still teenagers and regardless, it is 100% his fault, 0 hers.[/quote]
Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.

[Micchi]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.[/quote]

Her "responsibility" was to deal with the assault in the best way she could. Are you unable to understand that she may have been too stunned to react? Who are you to say that she has no backbone? What a misguided attitude you have. The one with no backbone is you. May something like this never happen to you or yours.

[Mooder]

I am beginning to think that what we are seeing here is a coping mechanism. By blaming the victim, we feel less afraid. We want to distinguish ourselves from the victim so that we may believe this will never happen to us. "If she did something I would never do (or wore something I wouldn't, or drank more than I would, or went somewhere I wouldn't), then it can never happen to me." I see no other explanation for the harsh judgment. :(

[Mooder]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.[/QUOTE]

Not that her reaction should be picked apart, but the story says she did try to stop it. Below I have highlighted the items from the story that show action she took. She did not sit and cower. It is beyond upsetting to me that she is accused of not having a backbone when she stopped it and reported it without the chaos that might have resulted from a more extreme reaction at the dinner table. Sadly, a lot of women never would have told anyone. And I think we all know why. :mad:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"During the meal, Arismends foot started to touch the victim's leg.

Mr. Welling said: "At that point, she thought it was an accident. When it happened again, [B][I]she apologised.[/I][/B] It happened again, and so she said s[B][I]he gave him a look.[/I][/B]

"The defendant then slid down his chair, and began to feel her legs with his foot. [B][I]She crossed her legs to discourage him,[/I][/B] but he tried to use his feet to pry open her legs." Mr. Welling said Arismends had his arms around his wife and son.

[I][B]The victim left the table[/B][/I] during dessert and told Police that she returned to her room feeling violated and cried."[/COLOR]

[Salt air hair]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.[/quote]

Have you, as a teenager, been in this position? My guess is "no". She's stunned by what is happening, my guess is she's was trying to process what was happening and trying not to make a scene just in case this isn't intentional. Again, the families met on the beach that day and the adults seem to hit it off. You seem to expect a lot of emotional fortitude from an 18 year old. It's just possible that she and her family reside in a community that's fairly sheltered and no reason to ever think of what to do if something like this happened. Putting any type of blame or commenting on her lack of response is easy from where we sit...but be in that position and then see how you react..not so easy. As for him, this isn't his first time, and it won't be his last.

[dockrocker]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.[/QUOTE]

Many people have patiently explained why the attainment of the minimum legal age does not magically confer assertiveness, self-confidence and courage. You choose to ignore the good content of all these posts in favor of continually repeating your blanket statement that all 18-year-olds "should be able to speak up immediately."

That doesn't say anything useful about the victim of this crime. It does, however, say something about you.

[dockrocker]

[quote name='Mooder']I am beginning to think that what we are seeing here is a coping mechanism. By blaming the victim, we feel less afraid. We want to distinguish ourselves from the victim so that we may believe this will never happen to us. "If she did something I would never do (or wore something I wouldn't, or drank more than I would, or went somewhere I wouldn't), then it can never happen to me." I see no other explanation for the harsh judgment. :([/QUOTE]

Bingo. This is a common reaction of women who learn that someone they know or someone in their community has been raped or sexually assaulted. They are looking for ways to reaassure themselves and to pretend that they have ultimate control over other people's actions: "I wouldn't wear that outfit/walk down that street/flirt with someone I don't know well/stay out that late/etc./etc., so it couldn't happen to me."

Men do it, too, but as a means of assuring themselves that it couldn't happen to their wives, sisters, mothers or daughters: "Some 18-year-olds are promiscuous, but my daughter isn't, so it won't happen to her."

[Crusin6]

I guess I am a strong enough person to have been able to handle something like what the victim went through....and I am very grateful for that.......and I guess I am in the minority because...while I wouldn't have had to make a scene...I would have been able to stop his advances......


Now, before everyone gets on the bandwagon.......this thing happenned in the Dining Room, right? Lots of people around, right? No real danger of physical harm, right? Enough said......

Now, if she was walking alone down a corridor or on the Lido deck at an obscure time, and was accosted, that is something totally different, right?

Sorry, but as I said earlier...He is 100% WRONG and she is a VICTIM.

However, she had control over the situation...and was able to ward him off........ FWIW....18yo's live on campuses...live alone...travel to foreign countries alone....they should know how to handle a situation like this without too much stress.....and be able to take care of themselves without having a breakdown. However, I will repeat once more she was a victim and he was wrong.......but should have been able deal with this issue as it is in no way anything like what could have happened to her....and thankfully she was able to realize this before this man spent anymore time with her family.



You guys continue to debate the issue....I am off to the pool on this gorgeous day! And Happy 4th to all.

[Crusin6]

[quote name='dockrocker']Many people have patiently explained why the attainment of the minimum legal age does not magically confer assertiveness, self-confidence and courage. You choose to ignore the good content of all these posts in favor of continually repeating your blanket statement that all 18-year-olds "should be able to speak up immediately."

That doesn't say anything useful about the victim of this crime. It does, however, say something about you.[/quote]
I bet if this thread were about letting a 13yo have a midnight curfew on the cruise you would be all for it...saying something like...well, they need to grow up sometime, don't they?

[dockrocker]

[quote name='Crusin6']I guess I am a strong enough person to have been able to handle something like what the victim went through....and I am very grateful for that.......and I guess I am in the minority because...while I wouldn't have had to make a scene...I would have been able to stop his advances......[/QUOTE]

I'm happy for you that you never had to be tested on these assumptions you're making decades later.

[dockrocker]

[quote name='Crusin6']I bet if this thread were about letting a 13yo have a midnight curfew on the cruise you would be all for it...saying something like...well, they need to grow up sometime, don't they?[/QUOTE]

Actually, I'm always unpleasantly surprised that so many people let kids that age run around the ship unsupervised at all hours. Since I've made it clear that I believe most 18-year-olds lack the coping skills of adults, why would I think a 13-year-old has them?

And do you have any other lame attempts at deflection before you go?

[Mooder]

[quote name='Crusin6']I guess I am a strong enough person to have been able to handle something like what the victim went through....and I am very grateful for that.......and I guess I am in the minority because...while I wouldn't have had to make a scene...I would have been able to stop his advances......


Now, before everyone gets on the bandwagon.......this thing happenned in the Dining Room, right? Lots of people around, right? No real danger of physical harm, right? Enough said......

Now, if she was walking alone down a corridor or on the Lido deck at an obscure time, and was accosted, that is something totally different, right?

Sorry, but as I said earlier...He is 100% WRONG and she is a VICTIM.

However, she had control over the situation...and was able to ward him off........ FWIW....18yo's live on campuses...live alone...travel to foreign countries alone....they should know how to handle a situation like this without too much stress.....and be able to take care of themselves without having a breakdown. However, I will repeat once more she was a victim and he was wrong.......but should have been able deal with this issue as it is in no way anything like what could have happened to her....and thankfully she was able to realize this before this man spent anymore time with her family.



You guys continue to debate the issue....I am off to the pool on this gorgeous day! And Happy 4th to all.[/QUOTE]

I guess I don't get what your point is. Yes, we would all like for an assault to be stopped and for all people to know exactly what to do when the time comes. But since we agree that it wasn't her fault, what is the point of saying what she [I]should [/I]have done!?!?! What does "should" mean? You don't mean legally, I gather, so what is the point? She did what she did and it worked out as well as possible. But discussing publicly your opinion that she [B][I]should [/I][/B]have reacted differently is what causes women to fear reporting these incidents. It is simply not for anyone to judge -- even if I were to agree that you might have been able to handle it better -- it is irrelevant and dangerous to say so.

Enjoy the pool and the holiday!!!

[iheartbda]

[quote name='Crusin6']I bet if this thread were about letting a 13yo have a midnight curfew on the cruise you would be all for it...saying something like...well, they need to grow up sometime, don't they?[/quote]
Give me a break......now you're making ridiculous assumptions that really have nothing to do with anything about the situation at hand.

Also, it's very easy, as an adult NOW, to think that we would have done something when we were younger the same way we know how to do it now. If you truly were able to be so stong when you were younger, good for you. But it is VERY unfair, presumptuous, etc. to project that ability on someone else, or all 18 yesr olds for that matter.

I know adults who cannot speak up for themselves.

[iheartbda]

[quote name='ColinIllinois']I'm not the board police but with all the comments I'm seeing here from both sides it seems this thread is contrary to what should be being discussed on a forum about cruising.

Just my .02 worth.[/quote]
Maybe so, but it does bring to light that bad people can be everywhere and children,[I] no matter the age[/I] need to be reminded or educated how to deal with them even on ships. It also brings up the question of how to deal with something......possibly make a huge scene in the MDR or quietly let it go til later.;)

[halos]

[quote name='iheartbda']Give me a break......now you're making ridiculous assumptions that really have nothing to do with anything about the situation at hand.

[COLOR=red]Also, it's very easy, as an adult NOW, to think that we would have done something when we were younger the same way we know how to do it now. If you truly were able to be so stong when you were younger, good for you. But it is VERY unfair, presumptuous, etc. to project that ability on someone else, or all 18 yesr olds for that matter.[/COLOR]

I know adults who cannot speak up for themselves.[/quote]

[I][U]I very much agree with you.[/U][/I]
At 18, I think I would have likely did exactly as this girl did. (But really...who can actually KNOW what they'd do in any situation. It's real easy to have a plan....not easy to follow through on it when you are taken off guard)

Now, at 40 (something) I would like to think that I would have [I]hurt [/I]the butt-head....like I said, there are nice weapons on the dining tables. A good fork in the foot would have been what I (think) I would do now.
At 18...I know I would have been to stunned to think right away but would have reported it after I got my wits together JUST as this girl did.

I have a SIL that has a few black belts. She is a postal worker and was attacked by a drugged up woman with a broken bottle one day while delivering mail....the absolute shock of this happening, catching her off guard was enough to get her pretty banged up even with knowing very well how to defend herself. She can (when prepared) take down a man more than twice her weight. All those years teaching Tae Kwon Do amounted to nothing when she was taken off guard.

For anyone to blame this girl in any way, just because you think she didn't handle the assault properly is so lame that I can't believe it. Even more lame is to suggest she may have acted a little bit promiscuously and lead the guy on.....

again, so many incidents like this go unreported. Just the fact that she DID report the guy is awesome in my opinion and I applaud her.

[Salt air hair]

A last thought, at least of mine, on this situation. It was a fortunate thing that it happened in Bermuda and not here in the states. We have a justice system here in the states that is second to none, but in fact is sllllllooooooowwwww in many instances. This guy would not even have seen the inside of court as of yet and when he did, the case would be adjourned and adjourned and eventually he would have walked away without so much as a slap on the hand. I know, I've seen it repeatedly in the courtroom. Monetary consequences, no...not on something like this, not here. So, if the creep has done this before, and I believe that he has and many times, he's been outed and held accountable. No excuses ~ Zero tolerance, and for this I thank the justice system in Bermuda.

[flowerchild]

I shared a very painful and personal story with virtually thousands of strangers for a reason...to make a very strong point that even though I knew what was happening to me was WRONG, I did little to stop it because I was in such shock and felt such deep shame. I was ashamed that my body had matured so quickly and I appeared to be a woman, not a 15 yo. I was shamed because I knew his family so well. I was just shocked and humiliated and so many awful feelings just rushed over me. I did finally do the right thing by telling an adult, but it took A LOT to be able to do that.

Do not judge a person before you have walked in thier shoes. Hindsight is always 20/20 and you truly do not know what you will do in a situation like that until you have experienced it yourself. It is life altering.

I feel so strongly for this poor young woman and her family. I just hope she is able to cope with it better than I did. To this day, I am paranoid with my own daughter and confess to be overprotective of her because of my experiences. Life can be complicated, can it not?

[CruisnGram]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.[/QUOTE]

Sure, and cause complete havoc in the restaurant. And have him look at her and say "excuse me? I brushed your leg by accident...so sorry". And then what? Have her dad get up from the table and bash the guy? Great scenario huh?

This young woman did EXACTLY what she should have done. She had plenty of backbone along with a lot of smarts to handle it like she did. Unlike many on this thread.

CG

[BikerAl]

[quote name='CruisnGram']Sure, and cause complete havoc in the restaurant. And have him look at her and say "excuse me? I brushed your leg by accident...so sorry". And then what? Have her dad get up from the table and bash the guy? Great scenario huh?

This young woman did EXACTLY what she should have done. She had plenty of backbone along with a lot of smarts to handle it like she did. Unlike many on this thread.

CG[/quote]

I have not gone back and looked a what I originally said, but it was along the lines of what would happen to the guy, if it was my daughter. In hind sight, I fear you are correct, I would have been the one arrested, and the perv would have walked.

If by any chance the victim is reading this thread, please know you did the right thing in that circumstance. Don't let anything said here put any doubt in your mind.

Al

[CruiseNurseBabe82]

I have not gone back and looked a what I originally said, but it was along the lines of what would happen to the guy, if it was my daughter. In hind sight, I fear you are correct, I would have been the one arrested, and the perv would have walked.

 

If by any chance the victim is reading this thread, please know you did the right thing in that circumstance. Don't let anything said here put any doubt in your mind.

 

Al

 

Al, you are my kind of guy!

[flowerchild]

Of course HE is 100% to blame....but she should have said something immediately!!!! She was the victim...but really now...she was unable to kick his leg off? And of course stay away from the creep and have her family do the same...and report him.as well.....victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately.

 

This just offends and disturbs me to the very core. It makes me very very sad. This particular statement just makes me want to weep:

 

"victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately"

 

Like I said before, you can judge and speculate what YOU would have done in the same situation, but until it actually happens to you, you have NO IDEA how you will respond. The first responsibility that young lady had was TO HERSELF.

[sjn911]

I am pleased to see support of the victim in this circumstance and the majoity of the conversation toward understanding what really comes down in these situations...and when you are 18..my heavens you are a puppy...period.

 

The truth is the strongest person on the block can be hit off-guard no matter what one thinks in these circumstances..I've seen many threads go more toward blaming the victim on these issues in the short time I've been here. This one has the most sane balance of discussion even with varried opinions and with those that think the girl should have had more of a voice when it happened. The discussion this time is much more calm than other threads I've read on the issue.

 

I do think that is a very unfair expectation to expect 18 year old to immediately say "stop" given the typical sneaky behavior of this type of assaulter, age difference..and simple possible shock she most probably was experiencing. Many scenarios have also been written about the fact she may have taken an extremely speedy and wise route of action..this is my opinion.

 

Another reality is one never knows how much sane, safe and happy experiences of practice or talking about these situations, their possibilities, and coping options goes on in a family...for all of societies in my opinion "off the map vulgarities and blatant sexual content"...we make innocent mistakes teaching our young and ourselves no matter what age; because we still are learning as a society to embrace and define what is healthy, happy respectful sexuality...this thread is better than some I have read here and elsewhere...brought me comfort.

 

I like Bermuda's actions..another vote for wanting to visit there.

 

Kudos the those that shared ther personal stories. sjn911

[sjn911]

This just offends and disturbs me to the very core. It makes me very very sad. This particular statement just makes me want to weep:

 

"victims have a responsibility to stop predators ASAP...and not wait and cower....and have a backbone.....for that matter we should all have a "backbone" By 18yo she should have been able to speak up immediately"

 

Like I said before, you can judge and speculate what YOU would have done in the same situation, but until it actually happens to you, you have NO IDEA how you will respond. The first responsibility that young lady had was TO HERSELF.

 

Me too..just weep. You are not alone..thank you for your courage.:)

[sjn911]

Me too..just weep. You are not alone..thank you for your courage.:)

I spoke and agreed to the comments only. I have found help and understanding here with this responder on other issues.

 

 

I hope this thread is kept around..it was sane discussion for the hot topic.:) And really gets to the issue pretty well..the victim is in the toughest spot..and there is a long way to go to that true understanding.