NCL DAWN sexual assult on 6/28...

[flowerchild]

how many folks are going to continue to not face the reality that there are scum bags in this world who will hurt us and that we should be prepared to DO OUR BEST to defeat them? Do you also think that the Gov't should provide your healthcare, by chance? I believe in empowerment VS being a victim. Understand, I place no blame on victims but certainly believe in teaching our kids to be strong and FIGHT.

 

Yes, in a perfect world all that would be ideal...but I live in a flawed world and I don't see it getting perfect anytime soon. Take the rose colored glasses off for just a moment...

 

You can teach your children how to handle situations thier whole lives but when it comes RIGHT down to it, you do not know how they will respond when confronted by a predator. It's one of those moments in life that is completely unpredictable, you can predict what you or your child would or should do, but until it happens, and please trust me here, you cannot imagine the shock, humiliation and shame. You can hope and pray that you/your child will handle it well, but it may not go down the way you expect.

 

I was a victim. Am I a victime any longer? No!!! But when you make comments like the ones above, you make me feel like a victim again. You make me feel like less than a person because I didn't do more in my situation.

 

If it had been your child, and she had responded in the same way as the young lady in this situation, would you have gotten mad and told them what you are saying to us on this forum and with the same lack of empathy?

 

I know you feel strongly about your opinion, but I am asking you to please reconsider and put your imperfect self in someone else's shoes for just a moment and just be COMPASSIONATE, not judgemental.

[sjn911]

How many of you think she or her family should pursue this and report it to the US police so the offender can be blessed with a record of his actions in the USA?

 

Think it would be great option for survivor and family to choose. Think all actions are survivor's choice and she should be empowered form that stance. Think things may have evolved where she feels comfortalble enough to pursue this..I sense balanced familial reactions and actions which would be more likely to empower her to these next options (though one can never know all the issues without being there and more importanly; without being the survivor.)..sjn911.

[done it]

Yes, in a perfect world all that would be ideal...but I live in a flawed world and I don't see it getting perfect anytime soon. Take the rose colored glasses off for just a moment...

 

You can teach your children how to handle situations thier whole lives but when it comes RIGHT down to it, you do not know how they will respond when confronted by a predator. It's one of those moments in life that is completely unpredictable, you can predict what you or your child would or should do, but until it happens, and please trust me here, you cannot imagine the shock, humiliation and shame. You can hope and pray that you/your child will handle it well, but it may not go down the way you expect.

 

I was a victim. Am I a victime any longer? No!!! But when you make comments like the ones above, you make me feel like a victim again. You make me feel like less than a person because I didn't do more in my situation.

 

If it had been your child, and she had responded in the same way as the young lady in this situation, would you have gotten mad and told them what you are saying to us on this forum and with the same lack of empathy?

 

I know you feel strongly about your opinion, but I am asking you to please reconsider and put your imperfect self in someone else's shoes for just a moment and just be COMPASSIONATE, not judgemental.

I am very sorry that you have been a victim, VERY SORRY. I agree that every situation is a different situation and the outcome can be unpredictable and often times, unfavorable. I was not blaiming this young woman or any other victim. I do IN THIS CASE feel that the girl should have pitched a fit and waited for her father to handle the situation. Again, not all things such as this occur with your "protector" sitting at the table with you. Again, sorry for your situation, ma'am.

[mkad1109]

I am very sorry that you have been a victim, VERY SORRY. I agree that every situation is a different situation and the outcome can be unpredictable and often times, unfavorable. I was not blaiming this young woman or any other victim. I do IN THIS CASE feel that the girl should have pitched a fit and waited for her father to handle the situation. Again, not all things such as this occur with your "protector" sitting at the table with you. Again, sorry for your situation, ma'am.

Your comment here seems much tamer than previously... I have to ask-are you a man? Because I think that perhaps some of your fervent belief she should have spoken up is explained by the natural need to protect. Rereading your posts I could actually see my husband feeling the same way--if only so he would have had a chance to kill the guy right then and there... but as a woman its not how I see it. I am much more inclined to think like a woman and to wonder what I myself would have done. Just asking...

[flowerchild]

Your comment here seems much tamer than previously... I have to ask-are you a man? Because I think that perhaps some of your fervent belief she should have spoken up is explained by the natural need to protect. Rereading your posts I could actually see my husband feeling the same way--if only so he would have had a chance to kill the guy right then and there... but as a woman its not how I see it. I am much more inclined to think like a woman and to wonder what I myself would have done. Just asking...

 

This is a good point...I know that men and women are very different in the way they think and feel...perhaps my husband would have a hard time understanding, also. Mars and Venus and all that.

 

Done it, I appreciate your apology (weird still at 43 to be called maam, lol) and understand completely how you feel but want you to understand that sometimes life is not so black and white...

[sjn911]

For some reason, I don't think it's INTENTIONAL.:D

 

Said hi to you in our other place:)..Viva Bermuda..I may like it in different and similar ways I like Hawaii and England etc. Thanks so for your encouragement. The combo must be amazing..anyway..how I think about it with zero experience as a west coast and west interior gal.:):).

[sjn911]

This is a good point...I know that men and women are very different in the way they think and feel...perhaps my husband would have a hard time understanding, also. Mars and Venus and all that.

 

Done it, I appreciate your apology (weird still at 43 to be called maam, lol) and understand completely how you feel but want you to understand that sometimes life is not so black and white...

 

At 50..hate ma'am..but it is often meant politely. In France it is/was very rude to call a woman Mademoiselle (sp) (Miss) after a certain age and Ma'am or Madame is not considered over the hill fodder..much less ageism there...woo hoo..time to visit Europe again..before 60..on the bucket list!!:)

[flowerchild]

At 50..hate ma'am..but it is often meant politely. In France it is/was very rude to call a woman Mademoiselle (sp) (Miss) after a certain age and Ma'am or Madame is not considered over the hill fodder..much less ageism there...woo hoo..time to visit Europe again..before 60..on the bucket list!!:)

 

I know it's polite but I don't have to like it! :p

 

Actually, I caught myself saying "young man" when addressing a teenage boy a few days ago...my husband is still laughing at that one and asks me when I officially became an old broad...lol. Gone is his cute 30 something yo wife, only to be replaced with someone that calls boys "young men". Oh well.

[C Cruise Dude]

While I agree that what he did was wrong and should be fined/locked up etc, this "teenager" was also 18, an adult. Giving someone a "look" while still allowing the foot to remain where it was is not enough. She needed to say NO and push his foot away. She's not a young girl or a young teenager. All she had to do is say something to him and call over someone to report it.

 

Yes, she shouldn't have had to go through that as it was horrible and yes, he should be held accountable for what he did to her. But at the same time, this whole thing could have been prevented if she had just said something to him. I would have understood if she was 12 or 14 but not 18, which in most places (including Bermuda), is deemed an adult.

 

The young lady was most likely embarrassed to have to deal with the situation at all no less in front of her parents. :rolleyes:

[sjn911]

I know it's polite but I don't have to like it! :p

 

Actually, I caught myself saying "young man" when addressing a teenage boy a few days ago...my husband is still laughing at that one and asks me when I officially became an old broad...lol. Gone is his cute 30 something yo wife, only to be replaced with someone that calls boys "young men". Oh well.

:):):p My experience and sentiments exactly..thank you..you helped me as all did on this thread..around the issues..it was so much more sane and strong than other threads on this empassioned kind of subject; to me a sane growth oriented discussion instead of off the map ugliness..Have a good day Miss:).:D

[dockrocker]

The young lady was most likely embarrassed to have to deal with the situation at all no less in front of her parents. :rolleyes:

 

It's funny -- I've been thinking this all along and no one, including me, has verbalized it until a few posts ago. Along with frequently having undeveloped senses of confidence and assertiveness, teenage girls live in terror of mortifying moments, and telling your parents and the wife and child of the man sexually assaulting you under the table that that's what he's doing qualifies as something that would appall many teenagers. If she was thinking straight at all, and she very likely wasn't (people's brains often literally freeze in moments like this), she may also have been afraid that he would deny it and she would look paranoid or crazy.

 

Ironically, her pursuing the charges later when she was calm is the best thing that could have happened for Mr. Power Trip's future victims (and there were many past and would have been many future victims -- as I mentioned previously, guys like this don't do this stuff as a one-off). He has now been publicly called out for his actions, his name has been emblazoned across the media and he has been thoroughly humiliated. I doubt he'll try this again, although his particular sickness will probably lead him to bully in other ways.

[travelcall]

Your report makes me want to comment on the behavior of NCL crew members. I am not making any allegations of assault at all.

I just returned from a cruise on the Gem, back to back from Venice departure June 12th. The crew is friendly--almost too friendly sometimes. I don't think they mean anything, but they are not properly trained as to professionalism and limits of physical contact.

 

During the cruise I saw several incidences of crew member patting and rubbing the backs of passengers. In one incident a male server in one of the main restaurants--Grand Pacific--, pat the bare back of a female teenager at the table. I would never allow anyone do this to my daughter. Another waiter threw his arms around an adult male passenger and wrapped him in a bear hug.

I myself (female) was subjected to unwanted physical contact. At the casino, one female attendant actually stood behind me and rubbed my back while I was at a slot machine. I was appalled and greatly offended by such "friendliness." I'm sure its a cultural thing--I saw crew members do this to each other. But crew members (and anybody, for that matter) should NOT touch any passenger.

I sincerely hope NCL reads this and acts accordingly.

[sjn911]

Your report makes me want to comment on the behavior of NCL crew members. I am not making any allegations of assault at all.

I just returned from a cruise on the Gem, back to back from Venice departure June 12th. The crew is friendly--almost too friendly sometimes. I don't think they mean anything, but they are not properly trained as to professionalism and limits of physical contact.

 

During the cruise I saw several incidences of crew member patting and rubbing the backs of passengers. In one incident a male server in one of the main restaurants--Grand Pacific--, pat the bare back of a female teenager at the table. I would never allow anyone do this to my daughter. Another waiter threw his arms around an adult male passenger and wrapped him in a bear hug.

I myself (female) was subjected to unwanted physical contact. At the casino, one female attendant actually stood behind me and rubbed my back while I was at a slot machine. I was appalled and greatly offended by such "friendliness." I'm sure its a cultural thing--I saw crew members do this to each other. But crew members (and anybody, for that matter) should NOT touch any passenger.

I sincerely hope NCL reads this and acts accordingly.

 

In my opinion this is a perfect copy paste quick letter to them if you are so inclined. It's not too much; not to little; perfect as stated. There have been reports about another line's crew member's backrubbing being the same kind of step by step.."grooming" for more. The embarassed woman ended up with a bit more uncomfortable fondling and shame about whole deal. Yes she was learning early assertiveness...but still the scene..the crew member even trying..wow.

Just like any small city, all ships will have a few characters like this as passengers and crew.

[mkad1109]

It's funny -- I've been thinking this all along and no one, including me, has verbalized it until a few posts ago. Along with frequently having undeveloped senses of confidence and assertiveness, teenage girls live in terror of mortifying moments, and telling your parents and the wife and child of the man sexually assaulting you under the table that that's what he's doing qualifies as something that would appall many teenagers. If she was thinking straight at all, and she very likely wasn't (people's brains often literally freeze in moments like this), she may also have been afraid that he would deny it and she would look paranoid or crazy.

 

Ironically, her pursuing the charges later when she was calm is the best thing that could have happened for Mr. Power Trip's future victims (and there were many past and would have been many future victims -- as I mentioned previously, guys like this don't do this stuff as a one-off). He has now been publicly called out for his actions, his name has been emblazoned across the media and he has been thoroughly humiliated. I doubt he'll try this again, although his particular sickness will probably lead him to bully in other ways.

You are absolutely right! I think unless you have teenage girls its tough to appreciate the power of embarrasment! This girl should be lauded for her bravery in reporting the incident. NEVER questioned!

[Chuck2810]

This incident took place on 6/28 and they settled the next day? Why can't cases in the U.S. be resolved that quickly ?

 

Torte Reform - would solve a lot of the bottleneck.

[sjn911]

You are absolutely right! I think unless you have teenage girls its tough to appreciate the power of embarrasment! This girl should be lauded for her bravery in reporting the incident. NEVER questioned!

 

 

Absolutely..all their typical bravado they are usually displaying is hiding the usual growing up insecurity. This woman did a wonderful job..many would have sat on it for at least a couple of days; or after the cruise;..then it may have been a no go or too hard of a climb for anything.

 

The same for any age person..shock can take over a typical competitor type (athlete) etc. When in vacation mode, not wanting a scene, being with a relative one is not usually with..etc. So many different options affect responses.

 

I later felt wrong even mentioning that assertiveness could have been better in the other situation I mentioned. Of course it is always helpful in the right situations; ASAP; and there are many ways to do it; often many of us have much room for improvement. This girl was very properly assertive and still got judged as not enough by many...she had an extemely short healthy process of "turn around time."

 

I've had a couple tough crucibles my life has been forged upon or I would not have been here to speak so much...evey discussion like this is one step closer to making things better..this was done in such a better fashion than I have seen here and elsewhere before; so much more a learning discourse than a fighting match; so many good supportive wise people; enough to be a support to the woman should she read here and it was to me...sjn911.:)

[sjn911]

Torte Reform - would solve a lot of the bottleneck.

 

In what way..if you don't mind educating a little further.:)

 

Or just explaining this a little further if you have a moment..thanks.

[mkad1109]

In what way..if you don't mind educating a little further.:)

yes please elaborate....do not understand how tort (isnt that civil forgive my naivte!) would help... but always open to options

[sjn911]

I get it all mixed up up sometimes..and as per what kind of situation..statue of limitations, severity of crime and it's definitions..think torte in general is crime to a "person" but again not my area and could be embarassing the heck out of myself.

[swedish weave]

Your report makes me want to comment on the behavior of NCL crew members. I am not making any allegations of assault at all.

I just returned from a cruise on the Gem, back to back from Venice departure June 12th. The crew is friendly--almost too friendly sometimes. I don't think they mean anything, but they are not properly trained as to professionalism and limits of physical contact.

 

During the cruise I saw several incidences of crew member patting and rubbing the backs of passengers. In one incident a male server in one of the main restaurants--Grand Pacific--, pat the bare back of a female teenager at the table. I would never allow anyone do this to my daughter. Another waiter threw his arms around an adult male passenger and wrapped him in a bear hug.

I myself (female) was subjected to unwanted physical contact. At the casino, one female attendant actually stood behind me and rubbed my back while I was at a slot machine. I was appalled and greatly offended by such "friendliness." I'm sure its a cultural thing--I saw crew members do this to each other. But crew members (and anybody, for that matter) should NOT touch any passenger.

I sincerely hope NCL reads this and acts accordingly.

 

Does that mean you would shut down the massages ?

 

I don't agree that NCL should restrict their employees to the extent you want. I cruise on a specific ship quite often, and have gotten to know many of the people who work on the ship. The spontaneous hugs and handshakes, and the pats on the back are welcome, very welcome. They do not signal any ulterior motives as you are suggesting.

[iheartbda]

Everyone perceives things in a different way and I am not questioning the OP's feelings. However, DH and I both agreed we never saw anything that we would consider inappropriate by any NCL crew members. I may have missed it, but this is also the first time I've seen this type of thing brought up on CC.

 

I would be willing to guess that all cruise lines do spend a lot of time emphasizing the importance of the crew's behavior as to not be interpreted as inappropriate with the ever present possibility of someone taking it the wrong way. Except for the one personal experienced in the casino, the OP has no idea what may have been going on with what she saw in the other instances.

 

I think she is seeing something that is not there for the cruising population as a whole.

[sjn911]

There was a recent incident; past year; where a cabin steward did a little shoulder rub to a gal with her sister on the balcony (do not remember all details and involved another line)..they were in cabin for cleaning and the women went to balcony..and on down her front it went (appearing to be a testing the waters thing)..it was a little more like this deal a "step deal" involved many pieces..the worst of which was the discussion here..makes this one such an improvement. It got pulled I assume because folks got out of hand..here it was lucid and illustrative discussion of the issues.. and while not all in agreement...just so much better...the other thread was finally and wisely partially pulled and/or cut short etc...much more ugliness in the discord. This discussion is huge progress in comparison. Probably the whole deal was more problematic with protection of cuiseline employee/employer and client issues. Also, there was not the same balance of opinions...sjn911.

 

This had nothing to do with spa or massage services.

[lovesublime]

Torte Reform - would solve a lot of the bottleneck.

 

 

 

No. It's called due process and you should be damn glad we have it.

[Cruisin 4 Ever]

Al - You are the same kind of Dad as me.

 

A few years ago on the Carnival Legend there was a young man that was being over the top in the comments with my then 16 year old daughter. He kept asking her to come back to his cabin so he could show her some of the CDs he brought with him. Well my daughter knows that this is a no-no and pointed him out to me on the Lido Deck because she felt uncomfortable.

 

I found the young man later on the Lido deck and approached him. I told him he had 2 choices:

 

A. Stay away from my daughter for the remainder of the cruise.

 

or

 

B. Be prepared to swim back to Tampa.

 

Not surprisingly he chose option A.:cool:

You are my kind of dad!

[Ms belp]

Don't judge Miss Rabit. It has happened to me in a public place when I was young, also considered adult, and I was afraid of causing a scene and embarrassed.