NCL DAWN sexual assult on 6/28...

[KaththeTaff]

Let's think about what would have happened had the young woman in question asked the man to remove his foot.

 

The pervert would have laughed it off and made some feeble excuse.

The young woman would have felt bad and embarrassed about raising it at all, and thought she had spoilt the friendship her folks ahd begun with the other family.

The man would no thave faced justice, allowing him to try it again with soemone else.

 

Having been dealt with by the authorities, and admitted his offence, we can but hope that this public admission may lead him to seeking help, for his family;s sake at least, and will spare anyone else from having to endure his seedy and unwelcome advances.

 

I'm sure this would be a better outcome than a scene in the dining room, which, it has been pointed out, could have led to violence.

[SnootieTootie]

Let's think about what would have happened had the young woman in question asked the man to remove his foot.

 

The pervert would have laughed it off and made some feeble excuse.

The young woman would have felt bad and embarrassed about raising it at all, and thought she had spoilt the friendship her folks ahd begun with the other family.

The man would no thave faced justice, allowing him to try it again with soemone else.

 

Having been dealt with by the authorities, and admitted his offence, we can but hope that this public admission may lead him to seeking help, for his family;s sake at least, and will spare anyone else from having to endure his seedy and unwelcome advances.

 

I'm sure this would be a better outcome than a scene in the dining room, which, it has been pointed out, could have led to violence.

 

This post says it all. Very good point.

[halos]

THAT IS JUST GROSS...

 

But, what needs to be said here is that young people, girls and boys, need not be embarrased and suffer in silence. They need to be able to STOP any infraction quickly and without apprehension. That young girl should have said loudly "woah, buddy... please do not touch me! It is inappropriate and unwelcomed!" What makes this character think resting his foot on the leg of a young girl who he just met is appropriate in any universe. He deserves whatever he got.

 

I think she did well reporting it as quickly as she did...since this happened under the table, he could have denied it during the meal if she accused him right then. I LOVE the idea that official charges were made and he was delayed and had to shell out money.

So many women do not report incidents such as this. KUDOS to this one for speaking up...it would have been nice for her to say something sooner but sometimes things like this are so unexpected, you don't have time to think. The best thing would have been for her to stick her knife or fork under the table and give him a good stab.....THEN once she screamed, he would be able to join her and then she could say that his foot was on her knee and people would know she was telling the truth..

Not many people can think that fast....

 

I love the line...'he was resting his foot on her knee'

Yeah right...everyone does this to a stranger at a table :rolleyes:

[snydermann]

First let me say that I DO believe the man acted inappropriately and the 18 year old woman wasn't experienced enough to disarm the situation as it was happening.

 

Please read that again.

 

But, we have no idea what lead up to the situation or the personalities of those involved.

 

Yes, the man plead guilty as I'm sure he just wanted this situation to go away as quickly as possible. He was probably advised as to what the fine would be and it was easier to pay it than fight it.

 

Everyone assumes she was an "innocent little 18 year old girl". We don't know what her behavior was like toward this man before the incident. We don't know how "playful" they were beforehand. How do we know he wasn't an extremely good looking charming man and she was being flirty?

 

My wife is a medical professional and we know that 18 year old girls are capable of being very, very, very promiscuous.

 

A cruise is a party atmosphere and people don't always behave appropriately as they would in real life. We don't know that at some point during the day one or more of the group had too much to drink and sent or received the wrong message.

 

Yes, he is a married man, but maybe they have an "open" marriage and his wife doesn't mind if he flirts. In his situation he wasn't cheating.

 

From the article, we don't know the whole story.

 

Please read my first sentence again.

[CruiseNurseBabe82]

First let me say that I DO believe the man acted inappropriately and the 18 year old woman wasn't experienced enough to disarm the situation as it was happening.

 

Please read that again.

 

But, we have no idea what lead up to the situation or the personalities of those involved.

 

Yes, the man plead guilty as I'm sure he just wanted this situation to go away as quickly as possible. He was probably advised as to what the fine would be and it was easier to pay it than fight it.

 

Everyone assumes she was an "innocent little 18 year old girl". We don't know what her behavior was like toward this man before the incident. We don't know how "playful" they were beforehand. How do we know he wasn't an extremely good looking charming man and she was being flirty?

 

My wife is a medical professional and we know that 18 year old girls are capable of being very, very, very promiscuous.

 

A cruise is a party atmosphere and people don't always behave appropriately as they would in real life. We don't know that at some point during the day one or more of the group had too much to drink and sent or received the wrong message.

 

Yes, he is a married man, but maybe they have an "open" marriage and his wife doesn't mind if he flirts. In his situation he wasn't cheating.

 

From the article, we don't know the whole story.

 

Please read my first sentence again.

 

Wow, your wife is a medical professional and she knows 18 year girls are known to be "very, very, very promiscuous". Good grief is all I have to say on this one. If that's the knowledge she brings about 18 year olds, I hope I never serve alongside with her.

[SnootieTootie]

The victim spoke up BEFORE this idiot had a chance to catch her ALONE somewhere on the ship and FINISH the crime that started in the dining room.

GOOD for her for telling someone, GREAT for NCL not sweeping this under the table, and OUTSTANDING for Bermuda having 0 tolerance for crimes such as this.

And, just a thought, what if the victim and/or her family just happen to log into Cruise Critic and read what some here are saying.

Would you say the same thing about this victim if you knew she was reading this?

[snydermann]

[quote name='CruiseNurseBabe82']Wow, your wife is a medical professional and she knows 18 year girls are known to be "very, very, very promiscuous". Good grief is all I have to say on this one. If that's the knowledge she brings about 18 year olds, I hope I never serve alongside with her.[/quote]


Maybe that wasn't as clear as it could have been, but you personal attack wasn't necessary. She works with pregnant women and has seen the unfortunate results of teenage promiscuity. I could give details but didn't think it was needed. My wife is a caring and compassionate woman who has dedicated her whole life to helping these families. It breaks her heart to see the situations many of the women now face at such a young age.

[Micchi]

[quote name='snydermann'][B]First let me say that I DO believe the man acted inappropriately and the 18 year old woman wasn't experienced enough to disarm the situation as it was happening.[/B]

Please read that again.

But, we have no idea what lead up to the situation or the personalities of those involved.

Yes, the man plead guilty as I'm sure he just wanted this situation to go away as quickly as possible. He was probably advised as to what the fine would be and it was easier to pay it than fight it.

Everyone assumes she was an "innocent little 18 year old girl". We don't know what her behavior was like toward this man before the incident. We don't know how "playful" they were beforehand. How do we know he wasn't an extremely good looking charming man and she was being flirty?

My wife is a medical professional and we know that 18 year old girls are capable of being very, very, very promiscuous.

A cruise is a party atmosphere and people don't always behave appropriately as they would in real life. We don't know that at some point during the day one or more of the group had too much to drink and sent or received the wrong message.

Yes, he is a married man, but maybe they have an "open" marriage and his wife doesn't mind if he flirts. In his situation he wasn't cheating.

From the article, we don't know the whole story.

Please read my first sentence again.[/quote]

She could have been standing in front of him, fully naked, and HE WOULD STILL BE IN THE WRONG IF SHE SAID "DO NOT TOUCH ME." He would ALSO be in the wrong if she DID NOT explicitly say "YES." She was INNOCENT because his assault - ASSAULT - was unwelcome.

It doesn't matter how "promiscuous" you (or someone else) thinks she may have been. What decade do you live in? "She deserved it because she was wearing a short skirt?"

Don't try to make excuses for other men. I'm embarrassed for your wife.

[Micchi]

[quote name='CruiseNurseBabe82']Wow, your wife is a medical professional and she knows 18 year girls are known to be "very, very, very promiscuous". Good grief is all I have to say on this one. If that's the knowledge she brings about 18 year olds, I hope I never serve alongside with her.[/quote]

Amen.

[snydermann]

[quote name='Micchi']She could have been standing in front of him, fully naked, and HE WOULD STILL BE IN THE WRONG IF SHE SAID "DO NOT TOUCH ME." He would ALSO be in the wrong if she DID NOT explicitly say "YES." She was INNOCENT because his assault - ASSAULT - was unwelcome.

It doesn't matter how "promiscuous" you (or someone else) thinks she may have been. What decade do you live in? "She deserved it because she was wearing a short skirt?"

Don't try to make excuses for other men. I'm embarrassed for your wife.[/quote]

Wow, a lot of personal attacks for presenting a different viewpoint for the sake of doing so. I'm not saying any of those points are true, or even close to being true.

Like I said, the guy was wrong, and, like some have said (like the poster who was molested on the subway) you can't "blame" the girl for how she handled the situation because you weren't there experiencing it first hand.

The man has a family, maybe he's not a "pervert", just stupid.

We don't know the whole story, THAT is the point.

[halos]

[quote name='snydermann']Maybe that wasn't as clear as it could have been, but you personal attack wasn't necessary. She works with pregnant women and has seen the unfortunate results of teenage promiscuity. I could give details but didn't think it was needed. My wife is a caring and compassionate woman who has dedicated her whole life to helping these families. It breaks her heart to see the situations many of the women now face at such a young age.[/quote]

sooo, let's get this straight. Just because some teens/young adults are promiscuous, that means that THIS 18 year old lead this guy on to the point that he would fondle her with his foot under a table while in the presence of his family??

:rolleyes:

[CruiseNurseBabe82]

[quote name='snydermann']Maybe that wasn't as clear as it could have been, but you personal attack wasn't necessary. She works with pregnant women and has seen the unfortunate results of teenage promiscuity. I could give details but didn't think it was needed. My wife is a caring and compassionate woman who has dedicated her whole life to helping these families. It breaks her heart to see the situations many of the women now face at such a young age.[/quote]

If someone could be so heartless to say 18 year olds are very, very, very promiscuous, then no I do not believe my comments were not warranted. As a medical professional, she should know we do not stereotype people. Just poor taste IMO.

[jaja]

[quote name='SnootieTootie']The victim spoke up BEFORE this idiot had a chance to catch her ALONE somewhere on the ship and FINISH the crime that started in the dining room.

GOOD for her for telling someone, GREAT for NCL not sweeping this under the table, and OUTSTANDING for Bermuda having 0 tolerance for crimes such as this.

quote]

totally agree !!!

[Crusin6]

[quote name='nezume']Amen! Moderation is a wonderful thing. There is no substitute for education on crime prevention. Teaching people ways to prevent themselves from becoming a victim is an excellent thing to do. From women going to clubs in groups, watching their drinks, not going to the store alone at night, and being aware of their surroundings in parking lots to teaching travelers how to prevent themselves from being easy targets for pickpockets, these are things we can do. When we hear of crimes like these, they can be used as learning moments for our children (ex: "Sally, you heard about that girl who had something slipped in her drink? Make sure you don't take your eyes off your drink") but in no way is it justifiable to place blame or "onus" on the victim, especially in these circumstances where the victim did nothing wrong. I feel like certain posters must have the attitude that women who wear revealing clothing and become victims could have prevented it by covering up and are to blame because of their attire or other silly excuses. That is just ludicrous.[/quote]
I am 50/50 with you on this...however....walking around with everything hanging out strikes me as just plain stupid.....the same goes for not speaking up when being victimized.......as well as making damagaing accusations and then recanting for whatever reasons....

[Crusin6]

[quote name='halos']sooo, let's get this straight. Just because some teens/young adults are promiscuous, that means that THIS 18 year old lead this guy on to the point that he would fondle her with his foot under a table while in the presence of his family??

:rolleyes:[/quote]
Of course Halos....you should know this by now...all women are promiscious...everyone thinks that...and sometimes the nurses in the pediatricians office are the worst...as well as some pediatricians...I guess when they see one case of a pregnant 13yo they assume that all 13yo's are going to come in pregnant.

Thankfully, I have a pediatrician who understands and knows us very well and is of the same mindset as I am.

It all goes back to the "villiage" concept, which I am no fan of BTW....one kid gets in trouble...it must be the parents fault for not raising them right...so the villiage steps in...as early as possible..and starts to teach the 10yo's....as though they are all on the verge of having sex with the kid next to them!!!:rolleyes: Sorry, but it aint so......and those pregnant 13yo's are in reality a rarity.

[CruiseNurseBabe82]

[quote name='Crusin6']Of course Halos....you should know this by now...all women are promiscious...everyone thinks that...and sometimes the nurses in the pediatricians office are the worst...as well as some pediatricians...I guess when they see one case of a pregnant 13yo they assume that all 13yo's are going to come in pregnant.

Thankfully, I have a pediatrician who understands and knows us very well and is of the same mindset as I am.

It all goes back to the "villiage" concept, which I am no fan of BTW....one kid gets in trouble...it must be the parents fault for not raising them right...so the villiage steps in...as early as possible..and starts to teach the 10yo's....as though they are all on the verge of having sex with the kid next to them!!!:rolleyes: Sorry, but it aint so......and those pregnant 13yo's are in reality a rarity.[/QUOTE]

Let's not flame nurses or doctors here please. Why do people have to be stereotypical? Just because one 18 year old is promiscuous they all are and because one nurse is judgemental they all are? Some people make my stomach turn and now I know why the world is the way it is.

[Micchi]

[quote name='snydermann']
We don't know the whole story, THAT is the point.[/quote]

Doesn't matter. He assaulted her - it was unwelcome - he was wrong - the end.

[Micchi]

[quote name='CruiseNurseBabe82']If someone could be so heartless to say 18 year olds are very, very, very promiscuous, then no I do not believe my comments were not warranted. As a medical professional, she should know we do not stereotype people. Just poor taste IMO.[/quote]

Sadly, I don't think there is anything "professional" going on there.

[dockrocker]

[quote name='snydermann']The man has a family, maybe he's not a "pervert", just stupid.[/QUOTE]

I don't use the word "pervert" -- it's been, er, so perverted by multiple contradictory connotations as to have very little meaning. (I am amused, though, by the idea that men with families are somehow safe from the word being applied to them -- hilarious.)

You don't seem to know much about the mindset of people who do stuff like this, so let me try to help you understand it. The man is not "stupid" --what he IS is someone on a power trip. He was getting off on the risk -- the risk of his wife sitting right there and discovering this, the risk of this girl calling him out. He was basically challenging this girl to stop him, banking on her not making a fuss in front of his family and her parents, and when she didn't call his bluff, he became more and more excited because he felt he had her in his power.

For guys like this, the sexual thrill is all tied up in the subjugation of someone against their will. And they are almost without exception repeat offenders, because risk is addictive for them. There is very likely a string of other women who would be more than delighted to hear of this dude's arrest and public humiliation.

[UK_Cruiser]

[quote name='billie5']Really strange. Since it was just her word as to what happened, I would have expected the pervert to just deny, deny, deny. The fact that he admitted to the action makes me wonder if mental illness is the overriding issue. (And no, I am not in any way excusing him.)

Bill[/quote]


Nothing to do with mental illness of any sort. More to do with him being a total prick. He has admitted to it because I would imagine his wife (poor woman) has forced him to admit it. No doubt his legal advisers also probably advised that admitting it was his "easy" way out.

[Mooder]

[quote name='billie5']Mooder, I could not agree with you more about trying to find a healthy middle course. I think, if you look back at Rabbit and others, no one has accused the victim of this being her fault. My point was that Rabbit seemed to be raising the very unpopular point of view that there is a middle, and that is intolerable for quite a few people.

Micchi, links to a more balanced approach to victimization are easy enough for anyone to find.

Bill[/QUOTE]

I'd like to say we have reached an accord, but I have looked back and the words "fault" and "blame" and "onus" were used in connection with the young woman. Saying the man was "also" at fault doesn't change that. As I said to Rabbit, she may not realize the harm of what she said. She may, indeed, merely be trying to see another point of view and wrote carelessly. But words are powerful and the way her posts were phrased blame the victim. They just plain do.

I'd also like to say that the woman's age has very little to do with my position. I am 51 years old and while I would love to be like the wonderful women I know who would react strongly against the man, I am not sure I would. I know I couldn't when I had a situation at a young age and I'm not sure I have changed that much. I tend to freeze and react later. I applaud the young woman - I hope I would do what she did.

Isn't it frightening how many of us can recall similar situations?!?!?! :eek: Flowerchild, thank you for sharing your story.

[dockrocker]

[quote name='UK_Cruiser']Nothing to do with mental illness of any sort. More to do with him being a total prick. He has admitted to it because I would imagine his wife (poor woman) has forced him to admit it. No doubt his legal advisers also probably advised that admitting it was his "easy" way out.[/QUOTE]

It's also interesting how quickly some bullies will fold when people finally confront them.

[Cruisin 4 Ever]

[quote name='MissRabbit']at what point do we start holding people responsible to STOP what is happening to them?? She was 18, an adult. Whether she's frightened or not, she's old enough to know it's wrong and to do something about it after the fact, so why not do something before that point? My point was that whether she's frightened or voilated, she should have stopped it and said something. If she had been 30 or 40 years old, and the guy was playing footsie with her, i would most certainly have questioned why she didn't just push his foot away. The guy was a stranger. Not a teacher, cop or someone else in a position of authority. If someone walks up to you on the street and starts manhandling you, do you just stand there and let him do it or do you tell him no and walk away??

I'm not condoning what he did in any way shape or form. But he also wasn't holding her against her will or stopping her from the ability to just say NO. At what point is someone an adult enough to be responsible for their own actions, or in her case, her inactions??[/quote]


Are you kidding me??? This is an 18 year old girl we are talking about here Out for dinner with her parents. He is a sick old pervernt and his wife should be ashamed of herself for being with a creep like that. Attitudes like "she should have said something" are what give sexual predators the idea it's ok to violate others. 18 year olds are still teenagers and regardless, it is 100% his fault, 0 hers.

[Mooder]

[quote name='boyle0268']Are you kidding me??? This is an 18 year old girl we are talking about here Out for dinner with her parents. He is a sick old pervernt and his wife should be ashamed of herself for being with a creep like that. Attitudes like "she should have said something" are what give sexual predators the idea it's ok to violate others. 18 year olds are still teenagers and regardless, it is 100% his fault, 0 hers.[/QUOTE]

Amen. But don't blame the wife either. We have even less information about her situation. :(

[JAMS1]

Miss Rabbit, you amaze and insult all of us with your indignation.
This is an absolute - the young lady was the victim.
Quite a few 18yr old young ladies are not savvy enough in any way to know how to handle something like this.
If she had been raised to be polite to her elders and not to make a scene in public, figuring a way to handle this while it was happening could have been beyond her experience.

Yes, it is our consensus, being judgmental of this very young lady, as you are, contributes to sexual assaults around the world not being reported.
Please reach inside yourself and really think on this one. If so many folks are telling you to think again, maybe you need to rethink your thought process for situations like this.