Costa Concordia SINKING

[Ozcruiser1]

To be fair on the crew they were given procedures to be put in place based on orders, they were taught what to do when certain orders were given.

When NO ORDERS were given they were left like most of us would have been having very little idea of what to do. I think the crew being the waiters, kitchen staff, cabin stewards who finally gave up waiting for orders and filled the lifeboats and dropped them to the sea saved my family and hundreds of others.

It is those who should have been giving commands that deserve all of the condemnation in my books. I wish I knew the names of the Indian man who drove our lifeboat, and the waiter who sat on his shulders to see, and the waiter who stopped people falling overboard when the waves splashed in as the boat was so overfull, or the other boys in white overalls, they were our saviours.

 

Welcome back to OZ. Thanks for the post. I'm sure you would be a welcome addition to our table arrangements and would be fascinating company. So glad that you and others are safe.

Please post updates when/if the Company gets in touch with you during their review and let us know how far reaching it is or if it is a whitewash.

[chabre]

Early on in this thread we discussed the position the crew was in. They are trained to follow orders and were stuck between what they probably wanted to do and what they had orders to do.

When one thinks about it, they are responsible for getting passengers off, to save their lives before they can evacuate themselves.

 

 

I worked for six months aboard a cruise ship as a ships photographer. As a crew you have to obey the captain, you can not act before an order is given from the bridge, is my understanding that the crew can be legally prosecuted if he/she disobey the orders or take action before the bridge orders. Yes, I know, saving the life of the people is more important than saving you of being punished, personally I wouldnt care of the orders and start saving people. BUT all the crew is trained (I had a LOT of safety training) to take orders and not contradict any of them, and being most of the crew in need of that job to feed their families, they dont take the risk to get fired or get legally prosecuted in a foreign country.

[Rancher Dave]

I agree! The more people, the more panic.

 

Then add these to the mix:

 

 

http://www.viking-life.com/viking.nsf/public/products-dualchutesystems.html/$FILE/Noname.jpg

 

 

They are called evacuation devices and many of the mega ships are fitting them. They have a capacity of up to 700 people.

 

The reason, there simply is not enough deck space to store traditional life boats that only hold 150 people. If the cruise companies were forced to fit traditional life boats for every person on board I don't think many if any of these mega ships would be able to be built.

 

I have a number of significant concerns about these which I have listed in an open letter to the CEO of Celebrity cruises who have them fitted to Solstice Class Ships.

Royal Caribbean have also fitted them to Oasis Class Ships.

 

Key points of that letter are:

 

1/ Why are passengers not informed that these "evacuation devices" are fitted to Solstice Class ships?

 

2/ Who are allocated to these "evacuation devices", are they purely for crew?

 

3/ Or are some passengers in cheaper cabins allocated spaces in these rafts?

 

NB Even if these devices are allocated 'only' to crew, in an emergency there are obviously going to instances where passengers will have to use these and I feel strongly that you have a duty as an operator to be open and fully inform all passengers that this could in fact be the only way they have to escape a sinking ship.

 

4/ Has celebrity ever conducted sea trails where a full load of 700 have evacuated using the chutes.

 

5/ If a ship develops a list as has happened with the Costa Concorda, at what point, (degree of list) do they become unusable?

 

6/ In the event that one or more of these evacuation devices becomes unusable, what other option do these 700 people have as a back up escape?

 

7/ The selling point on the website for these "escape devices" is that they take up less deck space and increase views - which seems to me to be primarily a cost reduction strategy. Our muster station on Eclipse was in Qsine. And many other muster stations were also inside. My concern is that in the event of a serious and sudden list, as with Costa Concordia, Qsine is located a very long way inside the ship, well away from decks where life boats/evacuation devices are fitted.

 

Is this because with the fitting these "evacuation devices" there is simply not the space on open decks for muster stations for all passengers?

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1556890

 

NB as far as i can tell these were NOT fitted to the Costa fleet.

 

 

If you are on a sinking ship I doubt you would really argue about getting a rubber vs. a hard one. Likely you will take what you can get so you are safe.

[SomeBeach]

I worked for six months aboard a cruise ship as a ships photographer. As a crew you have to obey the captain, you can not act before an order is given from the bridge, is my understanding that the crew can be legally prosecuted if he/she disobey the orders or take action before the bridge orders. Yes, I know, saving the life of the people is more important than saving you of being punished, personally I wouldnt care of the orders and start saving people. BUT all the crew is trained (I had a LOT of safety training) to take orders and not contradict any of them, and being most of the crew in need of that job to feed their families, they dont take the risk to get fired or get legally prosecuted in a foreign country.

 

My last post and others I have made have been with complete understanding of the position the crew is in. If you took it wrong, I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. My final sentence in the last post means they must risk saving others before they can save themselves. That's a lot to ask of another person. I found what the crew did to be very brave.

[SomeBeach]

Police secretly tape Captain.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gOJD4Os6JJZHGryCo7zDPukNErPg?docId=CNG.2ed706274083b5e00481b72882b4a47d.571

[Aus Traveller]

I worked for six months aboard a cruise ship as a ships photographer. As a crew you have to obey the captain, you can not act before an order is given from the bridge, is my understanding that the crew can be legally prosecuted if he/she disobey the orders or take action before the bridge orders. Yes, I know, saving the life of the people is more important than saving you of being punished, personally I wouldnt care of the orders and start saving people. BUT all the crew is trained (I had a LOT of safety training) to take orders and not contradict any of them, and being most of the crew in need of that job to feed their families, they dont take the risk to get fired or get legally prosecuted in a foreign country.

That is exactly the way I see it. The problem was that the orders did not come.:(

 

The question if and when another emergency arises is - given the failure this time, how long will the crew and passengers wait for an officer to give appropriate orders?

[Aus Traveller]

If you are on a sinking ship I doubt you would really argue about getting a rubber vs. a hard one. Likely you will take what you can get so you are safe.

I don't care terribly what kind of raft I would get in, but I don't like the idea of those shutes. I am trying to imagine very large people going down the shute.

[Cuizer2]

Excactly, why in the world would they want to do that?

 

Because in the long run it might be less expensive to self insure than to purchase the insurance.

[Keel Haul]

To be fair on the crew they were given procedures to be put in place based on orders, they were taught what to do when certain orders were given.

When NO ORDERS were given they were left like most of us would have been having very little idea of what to do. I think the crew being the waiters, kitchen staff, cabin stewards who finally gave up waiting for orders and filled the lifeboats and dropped them to the sea saved my family and hundreds of others.

It is those who should have been giving commands that deserve all of the condemnation in my books. I wish I knew the names of the Indian man who drove our lifeboat, and the waiter who sat on his shulders to see, and the waiter who stopped people falling overboard when the waves splashed in as the boat was so overfull, or the other boys in white overalls, they were our saviours.

My wife thanks you she was a crew member for 10 yrs in the 80s. She still has her fire fighting certificate from Miami Coastguard.

She survive a general alarm, left muster to help fight the fire in the engine room.No one ever thanked her so she is touched by your post.

[glrounds]

Excactly, why in the world would they want to do that?

 

To cut out the insurance broker and insurance company. They act as their own insurance company. In effect saying they can absorb the loss of earnings themselves and pocket the equivalent of what the insurance premiums would be.

 

(You are "self-insuring" for the DEDUCTIBLE on your car or home insurance.)

 

The CONCORDIA only represented 1.5% of Carnival Corp's revenues.

 

[Keel Haul]

I worked for six months aboard a cruise ship as a ships photographer. As a crew you have to obey the captain, you can not act before an order is given from the bridge, is my understanding that the crew can be legally prosecuted if he/she disobey the orders or take action before the bridge orders. Yes, I know, saving the life of the people is more important than saving you of being punished, personally I wouldnt care of the orders and start saving people. BUT all the crew is trained (I had a LOT of safety training) to take orders and not contradict any of them, and being most of the crew in need of that job to feed their families, they dont take the risk to get fired or get legally prosecuted in a foreign country.

Well said.

[Milaandra]

Police secretly tape Captain.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gOJD4Os6JJZHGryCo7zDPukNErPg?docId=CNG.2ed706274083b5e00481b72882b4a47d.571

 

Can they do that in Italy?!

[Milaandra]

The question if and when another emergency arises is - given the failure this time, how long will the crew and passengers wait for an officer to give appropriate orders?

 

You might be surprised by my answer.

 

I hope the crew and passengers will wait until the order is given by the bridge.

 

Despite all general opinion that the abandon ship was called too late in this case, I still think that only the bridge can determine when to start evacuating passengers. There may be circumstances involved that neither the crew nor the passengers are aware of.

 

I would want someone to check with the bridge if things seemed to be going on beyond a reasonable time frame...I don't want to be waiting for an order that will never come because all the officers on the bridge were electrocuted in a freak accident, or something!

 

I also maintain my right to put on warm clothes, grab my lifejacket and hang out in the muster station if I think something is wrong, and the right to leave my muster station if I don't feel safe there.

[Milaandra]

I don't care terribly what kind of raft I would get in, but I don't like the idea of those shutes. I am trying to imagine very large people going down the shute.

 

Like a rabbit eaten by a snake? :D

 

I imagine it's designed in a way to handle a multitude of body shapes from Arnold Schwartenegger to Kate Moss. That's the point of the flexible inner sleeve, isn't it?

 

How about the elderly. I know because they are landing on rubber over water, the impact will be softer than it looks, but I'd worry about brittle bones.

[Milaandra]

The matrie'd in me has been working very hard over the past 24 hrs.

Uniall,You have been moved from the dining room to the nightclub as the DJ!! BUT a word of warning about the younger females dancing the night away (especially in little black dresses!).... I'm sure you get my drift.;)

 

Don't make me get out the protective padding!

[Aus Traveller]

Because in the long run it might be less expensive to self insure than to purchase the insurance.

I didn't answer the question because I thought it was so obvious and that it might have been a rhetorical question. By the way, our government in Queensland doesn't insure any of its vehicles or buildings.

 

My post about Carnival not insuring for loss of income was because someone had misunderstood the comment from Carnival about insurance.

[Aus Traveller]

You might be surprised by my answer.

 

I hope the crew and passengers will wait until the order is given by the bridge.

 

Despite all general opinion that the abandon ship was called too late in this case, I still think that only the bridge can determine when to start evacuating passengers. There may be circumstances involved that neither the crew nor the passengers are aware of.

 

I would want someone to check with the bridge if things seemed to be going on beyond a reasonable time frame...I don't want to be waiting for an order that will never come because all the officers on the bridge were electrocuted in a freak accident, or something!

 

I also maintain my right to put on warm clothes, grab my lifejacket and hang out in the muster station if I think something is wrong, and the right to leave my muster station if I don't feel safe there.

That is what I think will happen, rather than people just waiting in the lounges or their cabins and not even heading to the muster stations. I agree with you that evacuation should only be on orders from the bridge. Unfortunately in this case, it appears to have been an officer from another ship who was hitching a ride who took over when the officers didn't do their duty.

[shipfriend_max]

Is there really a need to look for more bodies? They must be all dead. :(

But the puping out starts luckily at Saturday, but what happens than to the ship? :confused::confused::confused:

[Aus Traveller]

Is there really a need to look for more bodies? They must be all dead. :(

But the puping out starts luckily at Saturday, but what happens than to the ship? :confused::confused::confused:

To give closure to the families. Instead of thinking XXXX must be dead, they can grieve, have a service, grieve some more and try to get on with their lives.

[DinghyRacer]

Just finished reading your link and then went further.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2091128/Costa-Concordia-Francesco-Schettino-victim-witch-hunt-claims-wife.html

 

This goes into comments the wife made to an Italian magazine.

It also contains some new pictures of the salvage company setting up.

 

Those of us who live in the UK appreciate what sort of newspaper the Daily Mail is - a rather sensational one, and not one we go to for factual reports.

[Milaandra]

T Unfortunately in this case, it appears to have been an officer from another ship who was hitching a ride who took over when the officers didn't do their duty.

 

I think that story is a misquote that ran rampant and took on a life of its own. The legal document and the harbour master's report say that Schettino ordered the abandon ship.

[Ozcruiser1]

That is what I think will happen, rather than people just waiting in the lounges or their cabins and not even heading to the muster stations. I agree with you that evacuation should only be on orders from the bridge. Unfortunately in this case, it appears to have been an officer from another ship who was hitching a ride who took over when the officers didn't do their duty.

I have been jumping between this and another forum on CC

Request that Cruise Companies Renounce Passenger Deception in Emergencies

If I could add to this forum with a post from Activated95b

(I have not cleared this with Activated95b but I feel that it would add to some discussion on this widely followed forum)

Below is a copy and paste from Activated95b

 

One of the primary rules for communicating with people during a crisis is to be honest and communicate your plan.

 

Contrary to common belief people do not tend to panic in an emergency. They want (and need) to know the following:

 

1) What happened

2) How serious things are

3) What you are doing about it

4) What your plan is, and

5) What they need to do*.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Activated95b

1) the ship has struck a submerged object

2) we don not know how serious

3) we are seeing how serious

4) we are seeing how serious, to determine what we should do

5) go to your rooms, put your life jacket on.

 

I think that's fair.

That works - as long as you assign somebody to keep everybody informed as to the situation.

In additiotion to your item #5, I would also tell the passengers to dress warmly, then as soon as the crew were in position and the lifeboat stations were ready, had the passengers report to their muster stations. Putting the passenger through a 'hurry up an wait excercise' gives you time to take roll and ensure that everybody is accounted for and where they are supposed to be. You can also use this extra time to sort out the people who will need assistance getting on the lifeboat, verify that life vests are being worn correctly, give other instructions etc.

 

Now everybody is ready and all they need to do is board the lifeboats (and the passengers are already lined up in the order they will board).

 

I doubt that the passengers will criticize you for 'going overboard' for their safety in an emergency.

 

There was no panic because the passengers 1) understood what was going on, 2) understoon what was expected of them and most importantly - they felt that the information they were getting was credible.

[PizzaJohn 7]

How about the elderly. I know because they are landing on rubber over water, the impact will be softer than it looks, but I'd worry about brittle bones.

 

Better a broken bone and a life saved than the worst case scenario

[Milaandra]

If I could add to this forum with a post from Activated95b

 

I agree with this 90%

 

I have read personal reports where total lack of honest communication with passengers has happened on other ships, as well (although with less dire consequences). It just shouldn't happen.

 

I'm okay with something being a little underplayed to keep people calm. I can see that "we're having some problems with the engines, but because of heath and safety regulations, we ask that you take your lifejackets and go to your muster stations" would be better than "our engines don't work because they are currently underwater"... In a crowded movie theatre, we know that yelling "fire" isn't a great idea.

[Ozcruiser1]

I agree with this 90%

 

I have read personal reports where total lack of honest communication with passengers has happened on other ships, as well (although with less dire consequences). It just shouldn't happen.

 

I'm okay with something being a little underplayed to keep people calm. I can see that "we're having some problems with the engines, but because of heath and safety regulations, we ask that you take your lifejackets and go to your muster stations" would be better than "our engines don't work because they are currently underwater"... In a crowded movie theatre, we know that yelling "fire" isn't a great idea.

 

A response from the other forum from cc member italesi ( this should amuze my old tablemate and now DJ uniall)

 

But just after the impact maybe they should have stated

"please get your lifejackets on, the captain is drunk, banging some woman who is not his wife on the bridge and is on hold with room service. Report to your abandon ship stations and board the lifeboats. Just in case"

 

I promise that I won't quote from other sources without acknowledgement from now on. (Shame most of the media outlets will continue to do so)