Smoking Question

[mjldvlks]

Touche

 

While I see your point about apples and apples, if you buy an apple that has a bad spot on it, knowing that the bad spot is on it before you purchase it, what's the point in complaining about the bad spot on your apple?

Analogies can only be extended so far. If I can choose any apple in the bin, several of which are perfect and I knowingly take a bad one, then I have no one to blame but myself. But to make the analogy closer to what I see going on here, it would be like saying I have no right to complain about the fact all the Granny Smith Apples have bad places because there are some Golden Delicious ones that do not.

[mark290]

Touche

 

While I see your point about apples and apples, if you buy an apple that has a bad spot on it, knowing that the bad spot is on it before you purchase it, what's the point in complaining about the bad spot on your apple?

 

It would more like buying an apple that may or may not have a bad spot on it and not knowing which it is until you get it home. You know the store has the right to drop the apple, create the bad spot and sell it but you take the chance and hope that the store realizes an apple with a bad spot is not desired by most.

[Heidils]

Smoking sucks! Hubby used to smoke. I loved him then and I love him now.

 

It's offensive to others. Period.

[Cigar King]

Oh boy...:rolleyes: The OP DID say she was NOT trying to start a fight. Sheese

 

Yes, the OP asked a reasonable question, and, I believe, received reasonable replies. Follow-up posts were, IMHO, not as reasonable. Replies by yours truly may have been less than nice. None the less, I don't think we're ready to start throwing punches yet. ;-)

[Cigar King]

Analogies can only be extended so far. If I can choose any apple in the bin, several of which are perfect and I knowingly take a bad one, then I have no one to blame but myself. But to make the analogy closer to what I see going on here, it would be like saying I have no right to complain about the fact all the Granny Smith Apples have bad places because there are some Golden Delicious ones that do not.

 

Yes, but, you do have the choice not to purchase the Granny Smith. For that matter, you also have the choice to lodge a complaint with the produce manager, but, your complaint is, I believe, much more powerful if you do not purchase the product.

 

I'm hungry now. ;-)

[mjldvlks]

Yes, but, you do have the choice not to purchase the Granny Smith. For that matter, you also have the choice to lodge a complaint with the produce manager, but, your complaint is, I believe, much more powerful if you do not purchase the product.

 

I'm hungry now. ;-)

But what if this is the only store in town with Granny Smith apples [or a Flow Rider]?

[cello56]

Only 20% of adult Americans smoke. It is legal and it is their right to kill themselves by using a legal drug. Their body their choice.

 

However, for the 80% of the population who do NOT choose to kill themselves with this legal drug, why must we give up our safety to keep the minority happy? Smokers could get up from an indoor lounge like Boleros on Allure once each hour and go and have a smoke outside. As a non smoker, I cannot hold my breathe and go outside to breathe once an hour. Second hand smoke kills.

 

I am also concerned about the bar wait staff. How is working in a smoke filled venue day after day effecting their health and well being? Even if they are smokers themselves, they are not smoking non stop all day long. But they are if they work in the casino. Here in Florida there is not a single public place that people can smoke.

[Cigar King]

But what if this is the only store in town with Granny Smith apples [or a Flow Rider]?

 

Perhaps if you didn't purchase the Granny Smith, and made your reasons why known, someone might open another market that sells a product that is more in line with what you wish?

 

BTW - I totally get the we want the flow rider thing. That's a choice though. You're basically saying I'm willing to take this thing I don't want in exchange for these other things I do. Most of us need to make choices like this all the time. In this particular case it does you no good to complain too me about this issue, as I have no power to change it. I also don't believe, complaining here will not do much good. Lets face it, this has been an issue for years. Royal knows about it. Royal gets to see the books though, and as long as this model is profitable they will continue to offer it. By staying with Royal I suggest you make the possibility of change more remote.

[mjldvlks]

. . . your complaint is, I believe, much more powerful if you do not purchase the product. . .

 

Here is where I think we differ a little -- and where our apple analogy may start to reach the end of its applicability. For the cruise line, this is a business. The cruise line sets its policies where it thinks it can maximize its revenue. This is not a [yet] matter of regulation, so the cruise line is free to set the policy pretty much however it wants. If I am the cruise line it is a valuable piece of information to know how many of my existing customers are likely to continue buying my cruises if I change my policy. So I think it is quite reasonable for existing passengers to tell the cruise line I would like to see you policy change -- meaning I will sail the way it is but I would like it even better if [fill in the blank -- smokers can be heard as well]. Obviously that is only one variable in the equation [along with who will I lose and who will I gain] but it is important.

 

[Edited after reading your last post] We all know that Richard Fain and Adam Goldstein monitor this board continuously. [OK, that was a joke], but discussing these issues and making my opinions known on this subject makes about as much sense as any other subject we discuss [alcohol policy for example?].

[jakesmom04]

I haven't had a problem with smokers on other balconies. We had a heavy smoker on the balcony next to us last year on the Voyager and it was never a problem. Our next cruise will have a smoker next to us (a friend this time) and I am sure it will again not be a problem.

[mjldvlks]

I haven't had a problem with smokers on other balconies. We had a heavy smoker on the balcony next to us last year on the Voyager and it was never a problem. Our next cruise will have a smoker next to us (a friend this time) and I am sure it will again not be a problem.

That has more or less been my experience as well. After several balcony cruises, I never actually thought about it before reading complaints on this forum, so on our last cruise I actually tried conciously looking for it. I smelled smoke when we were in port, but never noticed it at sea. It may be an issues for some, but has not been for me.

[Finbar127]

Smokers could get up from an indoor lounge like Boleros on Allure once each hour and go and have a smoke outside. As a non smoker, I cannot hold my breathe and go outside to breathe once an hour. Second hand smoke kills.

 

Non-smokers could always patronize a lounge that does not allow smoking. Why would you knowingly put yourself in a place that you consider dangerous to your health?

 

I am also concerned about the bar wait staff. How is working in a smoke filled venue day after day effecting their health and well being? Even if they are smokers themselves, they are not smoking non stop all day long. But they are if they work in the casino. Here in Florida there is not a single public place that people can smoke.

 

Please don't get me wrong cello56, I'm not accusing you of being disingenuous. But IMHO a good number of the people who use this argument couldn't care less for the workers. They are only interested in having a smoke free environment for themselves. The "save the worker" rant is a convenient tool to help them get their goal.

[mommabean]

That has more or less been my experience as well. After several balcony cruises, I never actually thought about it before reading complaints on this forum, so on our last cruise I actually tried conciously looking for it. I smelled smoke when we were in port, but never noticed it at sea. It may be an issues for some, but has not been for me.

 

There are many more non-smokers than there are smokers so you have a pretty good chance of not having a smoker directly forward from you along with the wind condition to blow it onto your balcony and into your room as I've had. I've been on 40+ cruises and only had the problem a few times. 3 or 4 probably.

 

I've never had the problem when I've been in an aft balcony cabin but I've read about those who have had the smoke lingering on their balcony from a neighboring balcony due to lack of wind to blow it away.

 

Most people have never had a problem with noisy neighbors when they've had a room with a connecting door. I had the problem once - my first grand suite had a door to a owners suite. The parents were drunks and the children were out of control left alone in the room at many times. But you probably won't hear that story from many people.

 

I think the OP just wanted to know if smoke can be an issue on her balcony. And the answer is yes. It seems some smokers have taken offense to that answer.

 

And when I've had those few stinky smokers next to me, I've avoided going out on my balcony when they are out. Simple solution even if I did pay for the use of my balcony. I do consider it disgusting when I walk into my cabin in the evening and it smells of smoke. It sure seeps in from somewhere. Even my husband has noticed without me saying anything and his nose isn't as sensitive as mine.

 

Gina

[Sequim88]

Non-smokers could always patronize a lounge that does not allow smoking.

 

We really would have liked to have frequented the Wig & Gavel pub on Mariner. We are both beer & ale aficianados and they have a much expanded selection there. The music there would also have been nice to enjoy. But the smoke was so bad, even out in the promenande area, we could not go there. Asthma and sinus issues make us both very sensitive to smoke. So. no, we can't always patronize another lounge.

 

[2tall]

In response to the OP's original question, I've read that some folks like to book balconies as far forward as possible to avoid the smoke blowing back onto their balconies as the ship is moving. I've read that other folks have had luck on aft balconies. With that said, it's always possible to have a bad experience no matter where you are depending on how heavily the person next to you smokes (if they do), how sensitive you are, the weather, etc...so there are no guarantees that it absolutely will not bother you. However, some ships have spa cabins with balconies that are completely nonsmoking (somebody correct me if I'm wrong or if it's already been mentioned--I got distracted with the apple conversation) and the interior balconies of the Oasis class ships are nonsmoking as well. Those might be the best bet although the interior balconies don't face the sea.

 

If you do have a smoker next to you, it might not bother you as much as you might think (it doesn't for some people as you've probably noticed by the replies). If I were you, I'd try a forward cabin first and see how it works.

 

Good luck.

 

(And, P.S., as a smoker, I fully agree with prohibiting smoking in all interior spaces on the ship.)

[Cigar King]

BTW, if RCI were to make me king of the smoking policy, I would have designated and well ventilated areas for smoking indoors. Think the cigar lounge on the Voyager class. Indoor smoking would only be in those areas, and none of them would be located in places where non-smokers might wish to go. Think the casino here. I'd also move the outdoor smoking section to a special area on the aft, and make sure it was both comfortable and accessible. I think I would also make balconies smoke free or perhaps only allow smoking on balconies midship and back.

Anyway, it's been an interesting conversation. Don't know that we accomplished anything. It's a gorgeous day here, so I am looking forward to a cigar later tonight. Smoke em if ya got em! ;-)

[cello56]

[quote name='Finbar127'][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Non-smokers could always patronize a lounge that does not allow smoking. Why would you knowingly put yourself in a place that you consider dangerous to your health?[/FONT][/COLOR]

It is not just a case of avoiding a particular lounge or bar - on the Allure, we started avoiding that entire end of the Royal Prommanade. The smoke was literally pouring out of Boleros since there do not have any kind of door or barrier to block it. My point is that why should I as a non smoker have to completely give a certain venues in order to breathe clean air? The smokers could go outside to smoke and still enjoy every single venue on the ship. I on the other hand am not given that choice due to the smokers.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Please don't get me wrong cello56, I'm not accusing you of being disingenuous. But IMHO a good number of the people who use this argument couldn't care less for the workers. They are only interested in having a smoke free environment for themselves. The "save the worker" rant is a convenient tool to help them get their goal.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Actually you have no idea what I am like, and in fact I truly AM CONCERNED about the health of the staff. How could someone not be concerned about them? Here in Florida they passed non smoking laws in part to protect the workers from second hand smoke. Like I said in my original post, smokers can feel free to kill themselves, but they should not have the right to expose others to their drug.

[Finbar127]

[quote name='cello56']Actually you have no idea what I am like, and in fact I truly AM CONCERNED about the health of the staff. How could someone not be concerned about them? Here in Florida they passed non smoking laws in part to protect the workers from second hand smoke. Like I said in my original post, smokers can feel free to kill themselves, but they should not have the right to expose others to their drug.[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You are correct, I have no idea what you are like, that is why I DID NOT ACCUSE YOU of being dishonest with your statement. It was not my intent to offend you, if I did I'm sorry.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]They passed similar laws here in New York but I will repeat my belief that, although the advocates of the law loudly proclaimed they wanted to "protect the workers", their real agenda was simply to make smoking in bars/restaurants illegal. Once done it would be much easier to pass additional laws to ban smoking in other places. A good example of the process is the recently passed law that bans smoking in NYC parks, beaches and some other public areas. During the debates the proponents frequently argued that the ban would simply be an extension of existing laws. It is very easy to build upon a precedent. The key is to get your foot in the door by passing the first law.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]BTW, for the record I also prefer smoke free lounges, restaurants and bars but I strongly believe it should be the owner's decision to allow or ban smoking in their establishments. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]To get back OT, I don't smoke cigarettes but I do smoke cigars. I like Cigar King's solution of having a couple of well ventilated indoor spaces as well as a comfortable outdoor cigar lounge. If there was a nice outdoor cigar lounge I would have no need to smoke my cigar on the balcony.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Finbar127]

[quote name='Sequim88']We really would have liked to have frequented the Wig & Gavel pub on Mariner. We are both beer & ale aficianados and they have a much expanded selection there. The music there would also have been nice to enjoy. But the smoke was so bad, even out in the promenande area, we could not go there. Asthma and sinus issues make us both very sensitive to smoke. So. no, we can't always patronize another lounge.
[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Of course you can. No one forces you to go into a smoky place. As an experienced RCI cruiser I'm sure you are well aware of the smoking policies and what venues allow smoking.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[betsyl]

I'm the OP -- thanks to everyone for their informative and sometimes entertaining replies!:cool:

[cello56]

So basically it comes down to this:

Smokers have the ability to go to any bar or lounge on the ship. Every single one if they are willing to refrain from smoking in the non smoking ones.

Non Smokers can only frequent the non smoking bars and lounges unless they are willing to expose themselves to second hand smoke and endanger their health.

Somehow this just does not seem equitable to me.

[CVU]

[quote name='cello56']So basically it comes down to this:

Smokers have the ability to go to any bar or lounge on the ship. Every single one if they are willing to refrain from smoking in the non smoking ones.

Non Smokers can only frequent the non smoking bars and lounges unless they are willing to expose themselves to second hand smoke and endanger their health.

Somehow this just does not seem equitable to me.[/quote]

Exactly right!
It is the comment I make to RCL on each cruise comment card. We are not able to enjoy the Whole ship experience. The Pubs and Casino etc. Just let them know, maybe they will see it this way eventually.....?:D

[dz9yvr]

[quote name='Cigar King']BTW, if RCI were to make me king of the smoking policy, I would have designated and well ventilated areas for smoking indoors. Think the cigar lounge on the Voyager class. Indoor smoking would only be in those areas, and none of them would be located in places where non-smokers might wish to go. Think the casino here. I'd also move the outdoor smoking section to a special area on the aft, and make sure it was both comfortable and accessible. I think I would also make balconies smoke free or perhaps only allow smoking on balconies midship and back.

Anyway, it's been an interesting conversation. Don't know that we accomplished anything. It's a gorgeous day here, so I am looking forward to a cigar later tonight. Smoke em if ya got em! ;-)[/quote]


I agree with you 99%. I'd do everything you suggest except I would eliminate all smoking on the balconies.

[Finbar127]

[quote name='cello56']So basically it comes down to this:

Smokers have the ability to go to any bar or lounge on the ship. Every single one if they are willing to refrain from smoking in the non smoking ones.

Non Smokers can only frequent the non smoking bars and lounges unless they are willing to expose themselves to second hand smoke and endanger their health.

Somehow this just does not seem equitable to me.[/QUOTE]

Another way to put it is this:

Everyone has the ability to go to any bar or lounge on the ship if they are willing to refrain from smoking in the non smoking ones and are willing to expose themselves to second hand smoke in the smoking ones.

If you will pardon the pun, that puts everyone in the same boat ;)

Seriously, RCI makes it clear that there are smoking venues on the ship. If you book with RCI you are intentionally putting yourself in the position where you may have to choose between exposing yourself to smoke or avoiding the smoking areas. If you book a balcony on an RCI ship your are intentionally putting yourself in a position where you may have a smoker on the adjacent balcony. I don't see how someone can complain that it is not fair when they intentionally put themselves in that situation in the first place.

BTW I have been on several RCI ships and I can't recall any indoor areas, other than the casino and the cigar lounge, being filled with smoke.

Even if RCI changes their policy I doubt they will make their ships completely smoke free. Twenty percent of the population is too big of a number to write off as potential customers.

[Cigar King]

[quote name='cello56']Somehow this just does not seem equitable to me.[/quote]

This is bargain you make by cruising with RCI. You can certainly make your feelings known to management, but, you have other options, and choose to possibly expose yourself. Freedom of choice seems pretty equitable to me.