Carnival Triumph fire and emergency - Any techos know about engine rooms??

[Sutho]

In light of what is happening with another Carnival ship catching fire in the engine room and losing all power and ability to sail, I thought I would create this hoping someone with technical knowledge can inform us just how safe cruise ships are.

 

Example: This fire seemed to completely disable Carnival Triumph. Question in my mind how many engine rooms does it have and could it have been avoided.

 

I am aware from history from WWII onwards that many naval ships including Battleships, Aircraft Carriers, Cruisers and even Destroyers had multiple seperate engine rooms. That meant that they could lose one engine room and still be able to have full electrical power to the ship from the other engine rooms but they would lose speed as a result.

 

I want to know if the above is correct then why are cruise ships not built to the same standard today. They are a lot bigger than the ships of the past and it would have been a disaster if the Carnival Triumph fire had occured in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic Oceans.

 

From the knowledge I have had on warships I am aware some ships can have multiple engine rooms. They can fire up one engine and make slow speed with one engine and have electricity to the entire ship. To gain more speed they can then fire up another engine room and so on.

 

I am hoping any techo people who have worked as engineers, in ships engine rooms can come on and explain this better than me. I am just curious if it is possible a cruise ship can be built in such a way that it does not become DIW (dead in water) after a fire.

[VK3DQ]

In light of what is happening with another Carnival ship catching fire in the engine room and losing all power and ability to sail, I thought I would create this hoping someone with technical knowledge can inform us just how safe cruise ships are.

 

Example: This fire seemed to completely disable Carnival Triumph. Question in my mind how many engine rooms does it have and could it have been avoided.

 

I am aware from history from WWII onwards that many naval ships including Battleships, Aircraft Carriers, Cruisers and even Destroyers had multiple seperate engine rooms. That meant that they could lose one engine room and still be able to have full electrical power to the ship from the other engine rooms but they would lose speed as a result.

 

I want to know if the above is correct then why are cruise ships not built to the same standard today. They are a lot bigger than the ships of the past and it would have been a disaster if the Carnival Triumph fire had occured in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic Oceans.

 

From the knowledge I have had on warships I am aware some ships can have multiple engine rooms. They can fire up one engine and make slow speed with one engine and have electricity to the entire ship. To gain more speed they can then fire up another engine room and so on.

 

I am hoping any techo people who have worked as engineers, in ships engine rooms can come on and explain this better than me. I am just curious if it is possible a cruise ship can be built in such a way that it does not become DIW (dead in water) after a fire.

 

 

The ship has two engine rooms and a third emergency generator , the forward and aft engine rooms have two generator sets each , the aft engine room contains the propulsion motors (electric) which are powered from the gensets.

 

The fire in the aft engine room required the use of the fixed fire fighting system which would indicate it was a large and hot fire that could not be fought with portable systems.

 

I would imagine that major fire damage has been done to the power distribution system which is preventing the propulsion system from being used

 

This is all speculation of course and until the official report is published we shall not know, also keep in mind that there are many other systems on the ship that can be a fire hazard.

 

The main thing to consider is the safety of life, no one has as far as i am aware been killed or hurt.

 

Fire at sea can be very nasty , the first task must always be to extinguish the fire.

 

The ship is registered in the Bahamas and its maritime authority will publish a full report of the incident

 

Hope this helps

 

 

John Fisher (Royal Navy retired) :p

[Sutho]

It is making sense. So I am assuming the thing you suspect most is the fire was extremely serious.

 

I also was in the Royal Australian Navy but was in Combat Systems and not engines. I was also trained in fire fighting and more of my understanding about fires at sea is combatting them and measures to take to fight and control them. As far as power and electrical distribution is concerned I have no idea about that department.

 

For ships like the Diamond and Sapphire Princess. They boast that they have a engine housed in the funnel of the ships. Would a system like this be able to generate hotel power and keep vital systems running if a ship like that was to lose propulsion through a fire in its main engine rooms?

 

Being the current issue at the moment I think it is interesting to bring up such topics and find out how safe these ships are that we cruise on.

[happyaussies]

thank you for asking the Question Sutho and thanks to VK3DQ for your easily understood answer! Most interesting!

 

 

I hope all get home safely without toooo much trouble and with some exciting and unique memories of this cruise to tell their loved ones and friends.

 

;)

[VK3DQ]

It is making sense. So I am assuming the thing you suspect most is the fire was extremely serious.

 

I also was in the Royal Australian Navy but was in Combat Systems and not engines. I was also trained in fire fighting and more of my understanding about fires at sea is combatting them and measures to take to fight and control them. As far as power and electrical distribution is concerned I have no idea about that department.

 

For ships like the Diamond and Sapphire Princess. They boast that they have a engine housed in the funnel of the ships. Would a system like this be able to generate hotel power and keep vital systems running if a ship like that was to lose propulsion through a fire in its main engine rooms?

 

Being the current issue at the moment I think it is interesting to bring up such topics and find out how safe these ships are that we cruise on.

 

 

 

Hi Sutho

 

have a look at this , you might find it interesting reading

 

 

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/The%20Calypso.pdf

 

 

Best Regards

 

John

[VK3DQ]

thank you for asking the Question Sutho and thanks to VK3DQ for your easily understood answer! Most interesting!

 

 

I hope all get home safely without toooo much trouble and with some exciting and unique memories of this cruise to tell their loved ones and friends.

 

;)

 

Hi Folks

 

Thank you you and others might also like to read this regarding the Queen Mary 2 http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/QM2Webreport.pdf

 

This is an in depth report into a propulsion failure , the carnival triumph will have a similar technical arrangment to that described here

 

Ships are very complex machines , sometimes they fail :eek:

 

Best Regards

 

john Fisher (Royal Navy retired)

[VK3DQ]

I also was in the Royal Australian Navy but was in Combat Systems and not engines. I was also trained in fire fighting .

 

Hi Sutho

 

I did damage control at Portsmouth , but was delighted to be able to do my firefighting course at Tamerton Foliate near Saltash cornwall, its was the RN's main firefighting school.. a very nice spot enjoy the course .. but I'm afraid its taking me back quite a few years :cool:

 

did you ever do the high pressure water damage control course .. real fun in a blacked out compartment with REAL high pressure water .. I think from memory we sunk :D at least one on the course

 

 

Regards

 

john

[The_Big_M]

Thanks for the post, and the reply. I had similar thoughts wondering why a fire in one engine could disable the ship. It's good to read some educated opinion!

[Sutho]

Hi Sutho

 

I did damage control at Portsmouth , but was delighted to be able to do my firefighting course at Tamerton Foliate near Saltash cornwall, its was the RN's main firefighting school.. a very nice spot enjoy the course .. but I'm afraid its taking me back quite a few years :cool:

 

did you ever do the high pressure water damage control course .. real fun in a blacked out compartment with REAL high pressure water .. I think from memory we sunk :D at least one on the course

 

 

Regards

 

john

 

I did it as part of Sea Posting Qualification Course SPQC at HMAS Cerberus near Melbourne.

 

We had a compartment similar to what you described above with splinter damage, holes and hatches we had to secure up from water that flowed in from tanks. The water was not under and power apart from gravity. We kept sinking each time till we could get it right and the biggest problem was too many people wanted to take charge.

 

Fire fighting was similar we had real fires ignited in a controlled ship compartment inside and out and had to fight from within and outside. The fires were controlled by gas and it was up to us to put it out. They did surround us with fire to make it difficult.

 

The other part was gas attack where they threw tear gas at us in a very small closed compartment so we could don gas masks.

 

The last two everyone seemed to have fun doing, the water tank upset everyone and made everyone very grumpy.

 

The first ship I served on was HMAS Brisbane it was an older steam powered ship with two engine rooms and two fire rooms. The only contact I had with those was a tour of them when I posted on.

[MMDown Under]

Carnival Splendor Fire Redux: How Does This Happen Again (and Again)?

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5201

 

News

[happyaussies]

glad to see the boys are back in town! ROFLMAO :D :D :D

[chengkp75]

I have just recently started posting here on CC, trying to help people understand incidents like the Triumph fire. I am a merchant ship's Chief Engineer for over 24 years, an engineering officer for 37 years, and have worked on cruise vessels before (not Carnival).

 

Though the "safe return to port" initiative from the IMO (International Maritime Organization) was only adopted in 2010, which requires all NEW passenger vessels to have two completely separate engine rooms, many older ones have two engine rooms. The new IMO regulations require complete segregation of the engine rooms, propulsion systems, and all ancillary systems, so that a fire or casualty in one engine room will not affect the other, and it can be used to power the ship and provide propulsion. The older ships, including many built in the '90's, are usually 80-90% independent, and only a catastrophic problem will damage both engine rooms.

 

The Triumph fire is a mystery to me personally, as the initial reports state that a fuel return line in the aft engine room was the cause. This should have resulted in a period of black out, but then restoration of power after isolating the aft engine room fuel system, allowing the forward engine room to be restarted. I am not sure of the exact layout of the Triumph, but if the propulsion motors are in the aft engine room, that would probably preclude restarting propulsion.

 

The Splendor fire last year was on another ship with two engine rooms, but the wiring from the forward engine room ran through the aft engine room, and was damaged in the fire, so total power was lost. This is an example of how these ships are not totally redundant.

 

VK3DQ stated that the use of the fixed fire fighting system indicated that it was a severe fire. As he says, he is only speculating, and I will as well. The old days of CO2 fire suppression systems is outdated on passenger vessels, where the use of a water mist system is the first line of defense. This mist is similar to the cooling arches used at sporting events. The water mist absorbs incredible amounts of heat, and allows the firefighters to enter the space while the system is activated, whereas CO2 must be sealed up to work, and will kill anyone without breathing apparatus. Which system is being referred to is unknown.

 

Not sure what the Australian Navy uses for fuel, but the cruise ships use "heavy fuel oil" or "#6 oil". This fuel must be heated to 140*C and pressurized to 15 bar before going to the engine, so a fine mist from the fuel return line (initial claimed cause), could spray on any hot surface and flash to fire instantly. This fire would continue until the fuel pumps were stopped and valves closed.

 

Hope this helps. Cruise ships are safe, but as witnessed by the new 2010 IMO regulations, they can get better, and are doing so.

[poppetts]

Just seen this article:

 

A leak from a fuel oil line was the cause of the engine-room fire onboard Carnival Triumph that left the ship adrift at sea for nearly five days.

 

A U.S. Coast Guard spokesperson pinpointed the cause of the fire as the fuel line running between the No. 6 engine and the fuel tank, according to the Associated Press.

 

USCG Cmdr. Teresa Hatfield estimated that it would take six months to complete the full investigation into the Triumph fire, and praised the actions of Triumph's crew in their response to the blaze, saying they had done a "very good job."

 

The Bahamas Maritime Authority is leading the investigation, which has been ongoing since the ship arrived in Mobile, Alabama, but the USCG and the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board are also participating. Coast Guard and NTSB investigators will continue their work on the ship until about the end of the week, Hatfield added, after which they'll work from their respective offices. The remainder of the investigation will focus on the cause of the fuel leak, the crew's response and why the ship was disabled for so long.

 

Investigators began their inspection of Carnival Triumph's engine room Thursday, February 14, the same day that most of the ship's passengers finally returned home. Within days they discovered the origin of the fire.

 

"We know that the fire originated in front of a generator," Patrick Cuty, a senior marine investigator for the U.S. Coast Guard, told CNN. "You can see the ignition marks on the wall."

 

Additionally, Cuty said the investigation revealed Triumph's engine is intact and "probably operable." The fire onboard Carnival Triumph left the ship adrift in the Gulf of Mexico, reliant upon resupply missions from other Carnival ships and tugboats to return to port in Mobile, Alabama.

[avalon007]

I have been looking at serious incident reports regarding cruise ships since this recent Carnival Triumph event.

This cruise ship incidents web site lists many such events & if you disregard all the events relating to illness, passsenger accidents, minor items etc & view those that are related to serious mechanical or piloting issues that represent a real threat to safety at sea, you start to see which cruise lines are repeat offenders.

 

All ships can have accidents caused by external events such as freak weather conditions, but a high proprotion of these accidents listed do appear to be on Carnival owned cruise ships, (Carnival, Costa, Princess, Cunard, P&O, Holland America HAL, AIDA, Seabourn USA, Ibeiro) including 2 fires like Triumphs, the Costa Concordia tragedy, numerous mechanical failures & impacts with piers & stationary ships etc in the last 2-3 years alone.

 

They do have a lot of ships but even taking this into account, the more serious issues seem to be coming from their fleet of ships in higher numbers than you would expect.

None of these major incidents were caused by bad weather either.

 

What questions this creates for me are all maintenance & training related. Is it that Carnival have spread themselves too thin & have cut back on maintenance & training, especially since the GFC kicked in a few years back?

 

Are their systems not rigorous enough?

 

What sort of process do they have to vet their captains & key crew members?

 

I'm sticking with Royal Caribbean, who have a 42 year excellent safety record from what I read & although they too have suffered some minor incidents their response to dealing with them seems to be more professional than Carnivals to date from what information I can gather.