Europe?

[tmackel]

Why doesn't Carnival go to Europe? :(

[wiskt]

Why doesn't Carnival go to Europe? :(

 

 

Many cruise lines have pulled out or scaled back of the Mediterranean.... at least for for summer 2014.

 

http://www.fodors.com/news/cruise-lines-scale-back-european-itineraries-in-2014-6831.html

[golfadj]

Guess they didnt do as well as they hoped this past year.

[Aplmac]

Why doesn't Carnival go to Europe? :(

Answer: Air fares crossing the Atlantic are expensive and few American need that.

 

 

Carnival offers Med cruises

when they have a new build coming off the shipyard at Fincantieri.

 

That new ship hangs around the Med for its first cruise season(usually Summer)

and then exits the Med to cross the Atlantic.

Get it while it's happening! ;)

Carnival's new build Vista rolls out in 2016. Book now.

.

[chengkp75]

As a PP stated, airfares from the US drive most US cruisers out of the market. The European market has not been good for any line recently, as their economy is just as bad, or worse, than ours.

 

Recently, the EU adopted stricter air emissions requirements nearly everywhere in coastal Europe. These used to apply only in the North Sea and Baltic areas, but are now in the Med as well. Carnival had made a corporate decision to wait and see if the regulations would actually be enforced, prior to committing to costly upgrades like exhaust scrubbers. This is also why they have pulled back from Baltimore and NYC. When the scrubbers they have ordered start to be installed in 2015, you may see Carnival returning to Europe and East Coast ports.

[golfadj]

As a PP stated, airfares from the US drive most US cruisers out of the market. The European market has not been good for any line recently, as their economy is just as bad, or worse, than ours.

 

Recently, the EU adopted stricter air emissions requirements nearly everywhere in coastal Europe. These used to apply only in the North Sea and Baltic areas, but are now in the Med as well. Carnival had made a corporate decision to wait and see if the regulations would actually be enforced, prior to committing to costly upgrades like exhaust scrubbers. This is also why they have pulled back from Baltimore and NYC. When the scrubbers they have ordered start to be installed in 2015, you may see Carnival returning to Europe and East Coast ports.

 

Airfares are expensive to Europe and that is why we booked our first one as a TA so we only had to pay one way air.

[Aplmac]

Recently, the EU adopted stricter air emissions requirements nearly everywhere in coastal Europe.

These used to apply only in the North Sea and Baltic areas, but are now in the Med as well.

Carnival had made a corporate decision to wait and see if the regulations would actually be enforced,

prior to committing to costly upgrades like exhaust scrubbers.

 

This is also why they have pulled back from Baltimore and NYC.

 

When the scrubbers they have ordered start to be installed in 2015,

you may see Carnival returning to Europe and East Coast ports.

Does Carnival BREEZE have such scrubbers installed already??

 

Surely Vista won't be their first ship to have scrubbers built-in right from the start?

-or will it?

.

[chengkp75]

Does Carnival BREEZE have such scrubbers installed already??

 

Surely Vista won't be their first ship to have scrubbers built-in right from the start?

-or will it?

.

 

To my knowledge, the only ship owned by Carnival PLC that has scrubbers installed is the Zaandam. I believe the Vista will be the first ship of Carnival's that will be built with scrubbers.

 

RCCL has 2-3 ships currently with scrubbers installed, and I believe the Quantum and onwards will have them from new.

 

NCL has installed scrubbers on the POA, and the Breakaway/Getaway have them from new.

 

The current US ECA allows fuel with 1% sulfur, which is more costly than the worldwide standard of 3.5%, but which can be met with heavy fuel oil. The 2015 limits of 0.1% sulfur will require either a scrubber or a change to the much more expensive diesel fuel.

[Aplmac]

Many thanks for that, Cheng..

 

So those of us wishing and hoping for Breeze to be placed in NYC seasonally

can come down from our clouds, now. Oh well.. :cool:

.

[golfadj]

Many thanks for that, Cheng..

 

So those of us wishing and hoping for Breeze to be placed in NYC seasonally

can come down from our clouds, now. Oh well.. :cool:

.

 

Sorry but didnt think they would put their newest ship in that market

[Aplmac]

Sorry but didnt think they would put their newest ship in that market

If it was the newest one that had scrubbers pre-installed

it may well have been placed in NY though -and that's why I was asking.

 

 

Hard to believe that the cruise lines had their heads stuck in the sand

and didn't see the need for scrubbers coming down the pike, five years ago?

.

[chengkp75]

Many thanks for that, Cheng..

 

So those of us wishing and hoping for Breeze to be placed in NYC seasonally

can come down from our clouds, now. Oh well.. :cool:

.

 

Can't really say. As far as I know, Carnival will not start installing scrubbers until 2015, so any ship they return to NYC in summer 2014 will not have scrubbers, but also won't need them until summer 2015. What the schedule for retrofitting is, who knows? It would be in line with the regularly scheduled drydockings.

[golfadj]

If it was the newest one that had scrubbers pre-installed

it may well have been placed in NY though -and that's why I was asking.

 

 

Hard to believe that the cruise lines had their heads stuck in the sand

and didn't see the need for scrubbers coming down the pike, five years ago?

.

 

Carnival has not been building new ships for awhile so they didnt have many that could have competed with the newest from their competitors.

[SamGoodyTwoShoes]

Can't really say. As far as I know, Carnival will not start installing scrubbers until 2015, so any ship they return to NYC in summer 2014 will not have scrubbers, but also won't need them until summer 2015. What the schedule for retrofitting is, who knows? It would be in line with the regularly scheduled drydockings.

 

Makes perfect sense to me. Why spend a dime before you have to?

[Relayer]

A few of the "Luxury" lines were offering some fairly spectacular deals through end of November for extended 10-14 day European sailings that included all air fare. I though the rates were surprisingly good for that type of cruise.

[chengkp75]

If it was the newest one that had scrubbers pre-installed

it may well have been placed in NY though -and that's why I was asking.

 

 

Hard to believe that the cruise lines had their heads stuck in the sand

and didn't see the need for scrubbers coming down the pike, five years ago?

.

 

This is still relatively new technology, and each ship fitted is basically getting a new generation equipment. The ships that have scrubbers are still basically testing the performance of the scrubbers, and the EPA is gathering data. The lines are looking at what effect, if any, the scrubbers have on performance and efficiency of the engines.

 

The Zaandam was fitted in 2010, mainly because of her itinerary of West Coast, Alaska and Hawaii.

 

One RCCL ship was fitted in 2010 or 2011, and a couple since.

 

The NCL POA was just fitted at her last drydocking in March.

 

I can't remember whether or not the US ECA was announced 5 years ago, I think it was about 2 years ago that the company I work for started worrying about it. I know that the government generally works glacially, but I think this was pretty well fast-tracked, and the European limits came as a bit of a shock last year.

 

To give an idea of the complications of the US ECA, and the California CARB emissions limits, a ship going from California to Hawaii and back (regardless of whether it is a cargo ship or passenger), would have 3% sulfur heavy fuel for use outside the 200 mile US ECA, 1% sulfur heavy fuel for use within the 200 mile limit on the West Coast and around the Hawaiian islands, and 0.1% low sulfur diesel fuel for use within 40 miles of the California coast.

[jimbo5544]

As a PP stated, airfares from the US drive most US cruisers out of the market. The European market has not been good for any line recently, as their economy is just as bad, or worse, than ours.

 

Recently, the EU adopted stricter air emissions requirements nearly everywhere in coastal Europe. These used to apply only in the North Sea and Baltic areas, but are now in the Med as well. Carnival had made a corporate decision to wait and see if the regulations would actually be enforced, prior to committing to costly upgrades like exhaust scrubbers. This is also why they have pulled back from Baltimore and NYC. When the scrubbers they have ordered start to be installed in 2015, you may see Carnival returning to Europe and East Coast ports.

 

While I thought you had mentioned ina much earlier post that the requriement for the scrubber technology was worldwide, I did not make the connection to Europe being affected. I wonder if this was a factor in their pulling out for next year?

 

You also mentioned that the addition of the scrubbers would likely be done during drydock (for obvious reasons), and that Carnival was not starting till 2015 to retrofit their fleet (or some portion thereof). Do you know of any reason other than cost to wait until 2015 to start this process?

[ibcnusoon]

Boston, Baltimore, New York and Europe.

 

Say Goodbye to Carnival!

[chengkp75]

While I thought you had mentioned ina much earlier post that the requriement for the scrubber technology was worldwide, I did not make the connection to Europe being affected. I wonder if this was a factor in their pulling out for next year? In 2020, the worldwide sulfur limit will drop to 0.5%, but is subject to review by the IMO if the required technology or fuel availability is not there. I seem to recall that Carnival's statements about leaving Europe mentioned the new emissions requirements.

 

You also mentioned that the addition of the scrubbers would likely be done during drydock (for obvious reasons), and that Carnival was not starting till 2015 to retrofit their fleet (or some portion thereof). Do you know of any reason other than cost to wait until 2015 to start this process?

 

Again, pretty new technology, not a lot of manufacturers out there, and they have not tooled up too much, since the demand is small at this time. The manufacturers may be booked solid until 2015 for other lines that are already customers. I believe Carnival will equip 32 ships in their various lines. Despite the Zaandam, Carnival appears to have decided late in the game to jump into the technology. To be honest, if a ship had an itinerary where she only needed say 4 of 6 generators to make the required speed, there is no reason that Carnival, or any line, could not take a few cabins out of inventory for the workers, and take one generator (leaving one for standby) out of service to install the scrubber. The hardest part would be lifting the scrubber chamber itself onto the ship, and getting it into the stack. Would it be hard? Sure. Have the ships done similar things in the past? You bet. Anything that can be done while the ship continues to bring in revenue is preferred to taking the ship out of service at a shipyard.

 

Thinking about it, the scrubber chamber probably does not weigh any more than the "Cat in a Box" that they have already lifted on most ships.

 

And I forgot about the US Caribbean ECA that comes into effect in 2014, which limits emissions around Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands.

Edited December 26, 2013 by chengkp75

[Colorado Kat]

Why doesn't Carnival go to Europe? :(

 

This past year the Carnival European cruises were not very full. Just the general economy and the high airfares.

[MrBanana1240]

They think airfare is too expensive.

 

What about us people up north?

 

The scrubbers may add 50-175 dollars to our cruise fare (stated in a Baltimore Sun article), but airfare is AT LEAST $200 to Florida if you strike an amazing deal, but most of the time, it's $300.

 

And Carnival is worried about people flying to Europe?

 

I hope the do some major reconsidering and install the stupid scrubbers an bring the ship back. There are too many people and families in the DMV, Delaware, West Virginia and Pennsylvania not to come.

 

(I don't want to be told how wrong I am about this statement. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I've analyzed all arguments and have come up with a decision.)

[Aplmac]

And I forgot about the US Caribbean ECA that comes into effect in 2014,

which limits emissions around Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands.

This will affect ships home-porting out of P.Rico

including Carnival VALOR.

 

 

I found this...

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/oceanvessels.htm

.

[chengkp75]

They think airfare is too expensive.

 

What about us people up north?

 

The scrubbers may add 50-175 dollars to our cruise fare (stated in a Baltimore Sun article), but airfare is AT LEAST $200 to Florida if you strike an amazing deal, but most of the time, it's $300.

 

And Carnival is worried about people flying to Europe?

 

I hope the do some major reconsidering and install the stupid scrubbers an bring the ship back. There are too many people and families in the DMV, Delaware, West Virginia and Pennsylvania not to come.

 

(I don't want to be told how wrong I am about this statement. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I've analyzed all arguments and have come up with a decision.)

 

Actually, the scrubbers have a pretty decent payback period. A ship like the NCL POA that cruises 100% of the time in the US ECA (admittedly with very little time at sea), will have a payback period of 5 years on the 4 scrubbers they installed. This is due to the fact that the scrubbers will allow them to continue to burn the MUCH cheaper 3% sulfur heavy fuel oil, and this savings will pay for the scrubber in 5 years. So, technically, there is no need for a fare increase, but then again, it is business!

 

And flights to Europe start around $900 round trip.

[nybumpkin]

This past year the Carnival European cruises were not very full. Just the general economy and the high airfares.

We sailed the Baltic itinerary on Carnival Legend this past summer. Thanks to price drops, we were able to move from a balcony and inside to an ocean suite and inside. On the down side, the airfare for the four of us cost more than the cruise. Still, we never could have done a comparable land-based vacation for the price.

 

Off topic - chengkp75, oldest son is on a DDG in Yokosuka now. The new Ensigns were getting a tour from the Chief Engineer, who looked at DS and said "You're a KPer. You know all this already.":cool:

[chengkp75]

We sailed the Baltic itinerary on Carnival Legend this past summer. Thanks to price drops, we were able to move from a balcony and inside to an ocean suite and inside. On the down side, the airfare for the four of us cost more than the cruise. Still, we never could have done a comparable land-based vacation for the price.

 

Off topic - chengkp75, oldest son is on a DDG in Yokosuka now. The new Ensigns were getting a tour from the Chief Engineer, who looked at DS and said "You're a KPer. You know all this already.":cool:

 

Yes, unfortunately, in the "gray funnel line", engineering is just another billet to be punched in the promotion line. Most "engineering" officers know very little about the plant, and rely heavily on the petty officers, who are career in their specialities. Glad to hear he graduated, good luck to him.