Yikes! Noro on the Maasdam - two fold deep cleaning question please.

[kazu]

As the OP I wanted to drop in on my cruise to say I really didn't mean to start any controversy with this thread. My question was simply about boarding times. for those interested, boarding was indeed delayed despite the fact that the noro was licked. For those wondering, boarding was delayed until shortly after 1 pm for 4* and S passengers and until about 1:30 pm for the rest of the passengers who boarded by number.

 

I had the opportunity to speak with disembarking passengers and passengers who stayed on and there was no question that some passengers on the previous cruise were disregarding the quarantine. the captain did request people followed the rules and frankly, I don't blame him a bit.

 

Having been on a ship with NORO where certain passengers did disregard the rules, I placed the blame on the passengers back then. You just need one not to follow the rules to keep the Noro hanging on.

 

Signing off in Barbados from the beautiful Maasdam:D

[cbr663]

The comment regarding gastro outbreaks and the size of the cruise ship and the length of the itinerary are interesting. It's ironic though that in a 10 year period there weren't any CDC outbreaks on the Prisendam, HAL's smallest ship that routinely has longer itineraries.

 

Of the recorded outbreaks, the average itinerary was 13.375 days and the median was 14 days. The Ryndam has 2078 pax & crew, the Veendam also 2078 and the Amsterdam has 2370.

[Vict0riann]

There certainly was at least one outbreak on Prinsendam, and my family was part of it - and the Captain and CD, and many, many others. However, it was in Europe, and perhaps did not have to be reported to the CDC - I know, when we disembarked in Civitavecchia, all the continuing passengers were to be taken on tours while the ship had a deep-cleaning. That was in 2011. I imagine that numbers can be skewed if ships spend a lot of time in ports away from the US.

[kazu]

There certainly was at least one outbreak on Prinsendam, and my family was part of it - and the Captain and CD, and many, many others. However, it was in Europe, and perhaps did not have to be reported to the CDC - I know, when we disembarked in Civitavecchia, all the continuing passengers were to be taken on tours while the ship had a deep-cleaning. That was in 2011. I imagine that numbers can be skewed if ships spend a lot of time in ports away from the US.

 

I just saw this post. You got off when we got on! And yes, there was NORO on the ship for the first 7 days of the cruise. So, there were at least two outbreaks that year on the EE. I think your comment on Europe raises a very good point:D

[curtdesilets]

There certainly was at least one outbreak on Prinsendam, and my family was part of it - and the Captain and CD, and many, many others. However, it was in Europe, and perhaps did not have to be reported to the CDC - I know, when we disembarked in Civitavecchia, all the continuing passengers were to be taken on tours while the ship had a deep-cleaning. That was in 2011. I imagine that numbers can be skewed if ships spend a lot of time in ports away from the US.

 

Are European trips more likely to have Norovirus than those sailing and departing from US Shores?

 

We were on a very unfortunate Norovirus outbreak on the Crown Princess circumnavigating the British Isles a few summers ago. It was never reported to CDC (as no European cruises are) but we were in Code Red for the entire cruise and several hundred were stricken. There were a number of British passengers on board, apparently filling the empty rooms. I have a sense that British passengers in general are more meticulous about hand washing than most, but something was afoul for sure!

[sail7seas]

Are European trips more likely to have Norovirus than those sailing and departing from US Shores?

 

 

<snip>

 

 

 

I don't think there is any reason to think European trips are more likely to have Noro like virus outbreaks.

 

Caribbean Cruises and certainly Alaska cruises have their 'fair share'.

 

Edited April 27, 2014 by sail7seas

[kazu]

Are European trips more likely to have Norovirus than those sailing and departing from US Shores?

 

We were on a very unfortunate Norovirus outbreak on the Crown Princess circumnavigating the British Isles a few summers ago. It was never reported to CDC (as no European cruises are) but we were in Code Red for the entire cruise and several hundred were stricken. There were a number of British passengers on board, apparently filling the empty rooms. I have a sense that British passengers in general are more meticulous about hand washing than most, but something was afoul for sure!

 

I don't think there is any reason to think European trips are more likely to have Noro like virus outbreaks.

 

Caribbean Cruises and certainly Alaska cruises have their 'fair share'.

 

 

Agree with Sail, - Based on my experience only I see no reason to think that NORO is more prevalent on European cruises than in the Caribbean.

[BruceMuzz]

Certain types of illnesses tend to thrive better in certain parts of the world.

 

Bird Flu is a good example. Most people associate it with Asia - and China in particular.

 

The CDC has many theories that several types of common influenza virus first become active every season in China and then spread theri way around the world.

 

Norwalk Virus is most closely associated with the USA.

It is seen in many other countries, but the USA typically has much higher numbers every year, followed by the UK, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

 

You can Google this to get the counts by country for every calendar year.

 

The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth.

 

Cruises that depart from US Ports typically carry more American passengers than cruises that depart from non-US Ports.

Having more Americans onboard increases the odds that more people carrying the virus will be onboard.

That increases the chances of an outbreak.

 

All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers.

 

If you look at the CDC outbreak reports, the majority of ships reporting outbreaks are sailing from US Ports.

[kjw869]

Certain types of illnesses tend to thrive better in certain parts of the world.

 

Bird Flu is a good example. Most people associate it with Asia - and China in particular.

 

The CDC has many theories that several types of common influenza virus first become active every season in China and then spread theri way around the world.

 

Norwalk Virus is most closely associated with the USA.

It is seen in many other countries, but the USA typically has much higher numbers every year, followed by the UK, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

 

You can Google this to get the counts by country for every calendar year.

 

The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth.

 

Cruises that depart from US Ports typically carry more American passengers than cruises that depart from non-US Ports.

Having more Americans onboard increases the odds that more people carrying the virus will be onboard.

That increases the chances of an outbreak.

 

All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers.

 

If you look at the CDC outbreak reports, the majority of ships reporting outbreaks are sailing from US Ports.

 

Interesting info. Thank You!

[curtdesilets]

Certain types of illnesses tend to thrive better in certain parts of the world.

 

Bird Flu is a good example. Most people associate it with Asia - and China in particular.

 

The CDC has many theories that several types of common influenza virus first become active every season in China and then spread theri way around the world.

 

Norwalk Virus is most closely associated with the USA.

It is seen in many other countries, but the USA typically has much higher numbers every year, followed by the UK, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

 

You can Google this to get the counts by country for every calendar year.

 

The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth.

 

Cruises that depart from US Ports typically carry more American passengers than cruises that depart from non-US Ports.

Having more Americans onboard increases the odds that more people carrying the virus will be onboard.

That increases the chances of an outbreak.

 

All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers.

 

If you look at the CDC outbreak reports, the majority of ships reporting outbreaks are sailing from US Ports.

 

What's interesting About this Is....

 

Our British Isles Cruise that had a bad case of Noro Virus was the first one post-transatlantic. Apparently the Crown Princess got infected in Ft Lauderdale and it really incubated over the long journey to London (Southhampton). We were Code Red when we boarded.

 

It definitely originated in the US.

[POA1]

All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers.

 

If you look at the CDC outbreak reports, the majority of ships reporting outbreaks are sailing from US Ports.

 

Only ships that carry 13± passengers and have a US port on their itinerary are part of the CDC Vessel Sanitation Program or VSP.

 

Don't take my word for it. It's on the CDC site here:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/desc/aboutvsp.htm

 

Bruce - The CDC database doesn't seem to have data for foreign only itineraries on flagged vessels. Do you have data to support your assertion that " All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers."?

 

The records in the CDC database appear to contradict your statement. If you have record locators, that would help.

 

Querying the database shows almost exclusively voyages with US ports. If that's all there is in the sample, it's going to skew the data.

 

Thanks.

[Salacia]

Partial quote

...

Norwalk Virus is most closely associated with the USA.

It is seen in many other countries, but the USA typically has much higher numbers every year, followed by the UK, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

 

You can Google this to get the counts by country for every calendar year.

 

The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth....

 

.

 

Did you mean Norwalk Virus or Norovirus?

 

Norwalk Virus was a strain of virus identified in the 1970's. That virus was only one of many that has evolved, so the current umbrella term is norovirus. (A current strain of norovirus is GII.4 Sydney, which was first identified in Australia and appears to be particularly virulent. )

 

Norovirus is not most closely associated with the United States. It is a virus that knows no geographical borders. The country with the largest population that also has access to medical care (and compliance with public health recommendations to report contagious illness after proper lab tests) will no doubt have a higher statistic regarding reports of gastrointestinal illness, while lab tests are necessary to confirm a diagnosis.

 

The claim that "The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth...." does not seem quite right, especially from someone who reports working closely with the VSP and giving training courses to cruise ship personnel.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Salacia

[BruceMuzz]

Partial quote

 

Did you mean Norwalk Virus or Norovirus?

 

Norwalk Virus was a strain of virus identified in the 1970's. That virus was only one of many that has evolved, so the current umbrella term is norovirus. (A current strain of norovirus is GII.4 Sydney, which was first identified in Australia and appears to be particularly virulent. )

 

Norovirus is not most closely associated with the United States. It is a virus that knows no geographical borders. The country with the largest population that also has access to medical care (and compliance with public health recommendations to report contagious illness after proper lab tests) will no doubt have a higher statistic regarding reports of gastrointestinal illness, while lab tests are necessary to confirm a diagnosis.

 

The claim that "The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth...." does not seem quite right, especially from someone who reports working closely with the VSP and giving training courses to cruise ship personnel.

 

When I refer to the Passenger Vessel Services act of 1886, I usually (incorrectly) call it the Jones Act - because that's what most of the population calls it.

When I refer to one or more of the members from the family of Calici Viruses, I usually (incorectly) call them NLV or Norwalk - not because it's correct, but because that's what most of the public understands.

 

Are you naive enough to believe that most or all Americans who have the "three day flu" or "stomach flu" (which is usually NLV) actually pay to visit a doctor and have a lab test to determine which virus they have already recovered from?

 

Norwalk Virus, a strain of the Calici Virus, was identified in Norwalk, Ohio USA - not Norwalk China. It has thrived very well in a nation of people who refuse to wash their hands after using the toilet.

You should not believe the numbers I post on the internet. Try Google or another good search engine. You will find many thousands of reports from reputable organizations that will give you the numbers. Surprisingly, nearly all of them agree.

[POA1]

Partial quote

 

 

The claim that "The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth...." does not seem quite right, especially from someone who reports working closely with the VSP and giving training courses to cruise ship personnel.

 

It's not. The CDC estimates that 1 in 15 Americans get it each year. The 10% figure is about 1.5 times higher than the CDC number.

 

Don't take my word for it. It's a few paragraphs down in this page on the CDC site.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/features/norovirus/

 

The page was updated January 2014.

[Salacia]

Partial quote

...Are you naive enough to believe that most or all Americans who have the "three day flu" or "stomach flu" (which is usually NLV) actually pay to visit a doctor and have a lab test to determine which virus they have already recovered from?...

 

.

 

The majority of people around the world (not just the US) are very unlikely to report a brief gastrointestinal illness to a doctor unless their symptoms become serious enough to require medical attention - and then only if they were lucky enough to have access to medical attention. This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical when I read unsupported statements about which country has the highest percentage of people stricken with an illness that is most often neither reported or diagnosed with confirming lab tests.

 

And since we're talking about cruise ships, it would also be naïve to think that gastrointestinal illness is always reported by passengers and crew to medical authorities on board. Before someone responds once again with statement that the crew does report symptoms because they are so well supervised, trained, etc, here is a link to a spreadsheet showing what some VSP inspectors found regarding crew members reporting symptoms: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Au_auhhE0_JDdHRXSE5USllqaTY0Q0Q0dzc4eG5XRVE&output=html

Edited April 28, 2014 by Salacia

[POA1]

Partial quote

 

The majority of people around the world (not just the US) are very unlikely to report a brief gastrointestinal illness to a doctor unless their symptoms become serious enough to require medical attention - and then only if they were lucky enough to have access to medical attention. This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical when I read unsupported statements about which country has the highest percentage of people stricken with an illness that is most often neither reported or diagnosed with confirming lab tests.

 

If a poster is quoting the CDC statistics, he or she should be able to provide a link. If they do not, my bu11$h!t detector goes off. That's why I am hoping that BruceMuzz will provide us with a link on the actual CDC site that supports his statement. I think it will go a long way toward helping all of us.

[cbr663]

Partial quote

 

The majority of people around the world (not just the US) are very unlikely to report a brief gastrointestinal illness to a doctor unless their symptoms become serious enough to require medical attention - and then only if they were lucky enough to have access to medical attention. This is one of the reasons why I am skeptical when I read unsupported statements about which country has the highest percentage of people stricken with an illness that is most often neither reported or diagnosed with confirming lab tests.

 

And since we're talking about cruise ships, it would also be naïve to think that gastrointestinal illness is always reported by passengers and crew to medical authorities on board. Before someone responds once again with statement that the crew does report symptoms because they are so well supervised, trained, etc, here is a link to a spreadsheet showing what some VSP inspectors found regarding crew members reporting symptoms: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Au_auhhE0_JDdHRXSE5USllqaTY0Q0Q0dzc4eG5XRVE&output=html

 

Emphasis added. I have always believed that crew do not always report when feeling ill and I have also believed, and experience has taught me, that all the training in the world does not equate to compliance. I also pay no attention to the cruise line statement that "ships aren't sick" and that noro would just go away if Americans would just wash their hands after using the washroom.

 

Thanks for providing further information that demonstrates that noro is a people problem, whether that person is a passenger or a crew member.

Edited April 28, 2014 by cbr663