Jones Act Does it Again

[Charles4515]

Nope. It's just the people, only just the people, and will always be just the people. If nobody has it when they boarded, nobody will get it. It has NOTHING to do with "improper food handling", other than sick people infecting the food because THEY handled it.

 

Of course, the "political line" of blaming the big, bad, uncaring cruise line is the default position for some people. After all, it's never our fault, it's always the fault of the "other guy", in this case, the evil, greedy cruise lines.

 

 

 

Only misinformed, blame-it-on-someone-else conspiracy theorists think that. Informed people know better.

 

 

There are also misinformed cruise line fans who put on blinders and excuse most everything the cruise lines do.

 

The cruise lines are far from being paragons of ethical behavior. I have been on 45 cruises and seen it all.

[Kamloops50]

If cruise lines where a perfect business ,most (all ) couldn't afford to go cruising. The same would apply to airlines,hotels and all inclusive resorts. Companies will do what ever it 5akes to keep people happy.

 

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[Charles4515]

If cruise lines where a perfect business ,most (all ) couldn't afford to go cruising. The same would apply to airlines,hotels and all inclusive resorts. Companies will do what ever it 5akes to keep people happy.

 

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No business can be perfect. Unfortunately cruise lines are not even close. They could do far better and we could still afford cruises. They are one of the most greedy industries.

 

The PSVA should be repealed. Or it should be amended so a Noro outbreak would be an emergency exception to the fines. In the meantime if there is a Noro outbreak the cruise line should pay the fine if passengers want to leave the cruise and it is a violation of the act.

[sasset]

Most cases of Noro come with passengers at embarkation. Some will come on with a minor stomach ache and n9t mention it on the medical questionnaire.

I've seen people boarding that obviously sick and still say that they are fine.

 

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In talking with a bartender/waiter we met on several cruises, I got the distinct impression that crew may be at least partially responsible. He said that they are on a no work no pay system. Miss a day and it costs him.

 

I think that there are plenty of sources for the spread, but all are human.

[jan-n-john]

Just a couple of comments on the contents of this thread:

 

- Jones Act vs. PVSA: These are often confused. While it is true that they are different laws, they both do much the same thing, which is to reserve US internal transportation to US companies and exclude foreign companies (I won't get into the minutia of defining domestic vs. foreign). Jones Act = freight and PVSA = passengers. There are similar laws related to air transportation, and other countries usually have comparable laws doing much the same things.

 

-The point of the OP was to discuss the, to him, silliness of applying the applicable law when there has been a case of disease, and that Princess is "playing hardball"by not letting folks off and absorbing the $300 penalty. This is a legitimate question. Too bad the discussion got derailed by the discussion of the OP's confusion of the Jones Act with the PVSA.

 

-Seems to me the real issue here is whether the penalty should be waived in such circumstances. Waivers are issued to these laws in various circumstances. This noro situation certainly seems to me to qualify as a force majeure situation. Perhaps what we ought to be talking about is whether there could be a waiver issued, and whether Congress ought to add a provision to enable waivers to be issued more readily in such situations.

[nana541]

Just a couple of comments on the contents of this thread:

 

 

 

- Jones Act vs. PVSA: These are often confused. While it is true that they are different laws, they both do much the same thing, which is to reserve US internal transportation to US companies and exclude foreign companies (I won't get into the minutia of defining domestic vs. foreign). Jones Act = freight and PVSA = passengers. There are similar laws related to air transportation, and other countries usually have comparable laws doing much the same things.

 

 

 

-The point of the OP was to discuss the, to him, silliness of applying the applicable law when there has been a case of disease, and that Princess is "playing hardball"by not letting folks off and absorbing the $300 penalty. This is a legitimate question. Too bad the discussion got derailed by the discussion of the OP's confusion of the Jones Act with the PVSA.

 

 

 

-Seems to me the real issue here is whether the penalty should be waived in such circumstances. Waivers are issued to these laws in various circumstances. This noro situation certainly seems to me to qualify as a force majeure situation. Perhaps what we ought to be talking about is whether there could be a waiver issued, and whether Congress ought to add a provision to enable waivers to be issued more readily in such situations.

 

 

At last a voice of reason.....perfectly stated!

 

 

 

 

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[BillB48]

Just a couple of comments on the contents of this thread:

 

 

 

-The point of the OP was to discuss the, to him, silliness of applying the applicable law when there has been a case of disease, and that Princess is "playing hardball"by not letting folks off and absorbing the $300 penalty. This is a legitimate question. Too bad the discussion got derailed by the discussion of the OP's confusion of the Jones Act with the PVSA.

 

.

 

Not that Princess or any other cruise line needs me to defend them, but... that "playing hardball" in someways is just to protect the cruise line from some over officious bureaucrat. Buried deep inside the PVSA there are provisions against a cruise line actively violating the PVSA. In other words the cruise line can't say... go ahead and board the ship in Seattle and if you want to get off in LA it will just cost you an extra $300/pp. The cruise lines are not even supposed to advertise ways to get around the PVSA. In light of all that they might be afraid that common sense exceptions in applying the penalties just might be in short supply:eek:!

[A Sixth?]

Apparently she has been struck with Noro 4 times in the past 3 years. That's just in the US. We were on her a few years ago on a long awaited British isles cruise. She got it on the transatlantic from Ft Lauderdale and it continued into our cruise. No official figures, but some crew members were saying 300 were sick on our ship. CDC unfortunately does not report any Noro outbreaks disembarking in foreign ports.

 

Something is direly wrong with that ship, IMO to have this many outbreaks. I think it might be caused internally, perhaps in the galley??

 

Hi Curtdesilets

 

Not to hijack the thread.... but it is a bit of a Princess thing on a universal subject on a Celebrity cruise....

 

Other than that, how was the play Mrs Lincoln? :eek: (Too soon? :rolleyes: )

 

One of our BEST cruises ever was that British Isles cruise.....

 

(as well as that one on the Century to Alaska with you guys!)

Edited April 13, 2014 by A Sixth?

[jan-n-john]

Not that Princess or any other cruise line needs me to defend them, but... that "playing hardball" in someways is just to protect the cruise line from some over officious bureaucrat. Buried deep inside the PVSA there are provisions against a cruise line actively violating the PVSA. In other words the cruise line can't say... go ahead and board the ship in Seattle and if you want to get off in LA it will just cost you an extra $300/pp. The cruise lines are not even supposed to advertise ways to get around the PVSA. In light of all that they might be afraid that common sense exceptions in applying the penalties just might be in short supply:eek:!

 

You make good points but;

 

- "getting off in LA" will cost lots more than the $300 -- the pax will lose the rest of what he has paid for the trip and didn't use, so it doesn't seem to be likely scenario for anyone to contemplate under any sort of normal circumstances

 

- the crux of the issue here is granting a waiver under force majeure conditions. Of course bureaucrats can be what appears to us to be officious. But they have to follow the law, and that is the problem here. Noro probably wasn't on the radar screen when the law was put in place, but perhaps it's time to work such situations into the waiver process.

[Kamloops50]

Let's not blame Princess for people's stupidity for traveling when they sick. That is what insurance is bought for. Yes the PVSA and Jone's Act are stupid. Until the US Government decides to change or repeal ,we should just learn to live with it.

 

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[BillB48]

Here's a link to an interesting post, if you have not seen it yet, in the Ask a Cruise Question board on a PVSA thread:).

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=42223477&postcount=34

[LetsGetWet!]

I know I am on the Celebrity board and the Jones act applies to foreign flagged ships transporting passengers as well as cargo between 2 American ports. This is why New Jersey ran out of salt this winter because they had a load of salt in New England on a foreign ship but the Jones Act prevented the same ship from transporting it to NJ. They could not find an American ship to transport the salt. The act affects all cruise lines and is newsworthy IMHO.

 

So are you going around and posting this on every cruise line's board then? [emoji37] And the Jones act is about CARGO, like the salt in your example. The law regarding passengers is PVSA, NOT the Jones Act!

 

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[maxsales]

No business can be perfect. Unfortunately cruise lines are not even close. They could do far better and we could still afford cruises. They are one of the most greedy industries.

 

The PSVA should be repealed. Or it should be amended so a Noro outbreak would be an emergency exception to the fines. In the meantime if there is a Noro outbreak the cruise line should pay the fine if passengers want to leave the cruise and it is a violation of the act.

 

Why would you say that and what proof do you have to back it up?. I don't think cruise line profit margarines are spectacular by any means. Don't see them as being "greedy" just another business trying compete.

 

I would suggest you not cruise if you feel that strongly. I can't imagine a cruise can be much fun for you feeling the way you do.

[Charles4515]

Why would you say that and what proof do you have to back it up?. I don't think cruise line profit margarines are spectacular by any means. Don't see them as being "greedy" just another business trying compete.

 

I would suggest you not cruise if you feel that strongly. I can't imagine a cruise can be much fun for you feeling the way you do.

 

I read their financials.

 

Most businesses are greedy. Comes with the territory. That is why regulation is needed. :p

 

I enjoy cruises. Been on 45 and have four currently booked and working on a fifth. I just am not naive or a cheerleader :D

[YYC F/A]

So, a small amount of folks (undisclosed and hard to determine how many of them actually came onboard with some kind of illness in the first place) had suspected Norovirus. An outbreak that affected less than 4% of the total onboard population.

 

These folks are quarantined to cabin, provided complimentary medical care, and Princess instigates additional cleaning and sanitising measures.

 

Yet somehow, Princess should also be financially responsible for fines incurred by people disembarking early in contravention of the PVSA?

 

I heard there's a cold and flu bug being passed around a lot of the kids' school. Maybe I should keep the kids at home, and then hold the school accountable for my costs of childcare. Surely they're responsible for for the consequences of my decisions.

[LetsGetWet!]

No business can be perfect. Unfortunately cruise lines are not even close. They could do far better and we could still afford cruises. They are one of the most greedy industries.

I read their financials.

 

Most businesses are greedy. Comes with the territory. That is why regulation is needed. :p

 

I enjoy cruises. Been on 45 and have four currently booked and working on a fifth. I just am not naive or a cheerleader :D

Complete, unadulterated BS! As of 12/31/13 RCL's quarterly profit margin was 0.38%.

 

http://ycharts.com/companies/RCL/profit_margin

 

The average profit margin of the entire S&P 500 for the same quarter was 9.9%.

 

http://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf

 

If you claim you "read their financials" and think "cruise lines... are one of the most greedy industries" then you really need to learn to read better, because you're really embarrassing yourself with these posts.

 

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[Bailey & Sophie]

I think I have lost track of what this thread is really about.

[SeagoingMom]

There are also misinformed cruise line fans who put on blinders and excuse most everything the cruise lines do.

 

The cruise lines are far from being paragons of ethical behavior. I have been on 45 cruises and seen it all.

Care to elaborate on what you have seen? I'm all ears.

[Charles4515]

Care to elaborate on what you have seen? I'm all ears.

 

 

I won't elaborate because that is taking it way off topic. I think even though Bhpman mis titled the thread, a point made in that starting post is valid. Princess is playing hardball. I don't think they should or that they have to.

[LetsGetWet!]

I won't elaborate because that is taking it way off topic.

Good choice - you've embarrassed yourself enough already... ;)

 

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[Charles4515]

Good choice - you've embarrassed yourself enough already... ;)

 

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Right, cruise line cheerleaders can ignore Noro vomit cruises, crew working long hours every day for low wages, no US taxes, poop cruises and not be embarrassed.....

[Cruise Junky]

Right, cruise line cheerleaders can ignore Noro vomit cruises, crew working long hours every day for low wages, no US taxes, poop cruises and not be embarrassed.....

 

Then why do you cruise? If you're continuing to support this you're no better than anyone else.

[WALKER1313]

Congress(the lawmakers) have cloture, I see closure...;)

[PartyAllDaTyme]

Going back to the original post, if I'm understanding it correctly, we have passengers who embarked in a US port, are not sick themselves yet, but want to get off in another US port before they get sick. Understandable, but it does violate the law as written. They are no more entitled to get any of their cruise fare back than they would be if they didn't like an itinerary change due to a hurricane. Bad things happen on a cruise. Unless it could be shown that the cruise line deliberately ignored the problem or was somehow negligent, it shouldn't be held against Princess, even assuming the cruise contract the passenger agreed to prior to sailing didn't address the issue.

 

By asking to be let off early, they're asking Princess to violate the law. It's not just a matter of paying an extra fee for the privilege of leaving early, they're asking them to do something that they are supposed to take care to avoid doing. If the cruise line could just pay the fine and pass it along to the customer, they would do it all the time.

[jan-n-john]

Complete, unadulterated BS! As of 12/31/13 RCL's quarterly profit margin was 0.38%.

 

http://ycharts.com/companies/RCL/profit_margin

 

The average profit margin of the entire S&P 500 for the same quarter was 9.9%.

 

http://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf

 

If you claim you "read their financials" and think "cruise lines... are one of the most greedy industries" then you really need to learn to read better, because you're really embarrassing yourself with these posts.

 

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Well, FWIW, your .38% figure is somewhat misleading. Q4 is always low for this company; Q3 is always much better. Currently on a ttm basis (i.e. most recent 12 months) RCL is running just shy of a 6% return on equity and profit. Not great but not bad.

Edited April 14, 2014 by jan-n-john