Beware of Art Auctions on Celebrity Reflection

[didicruiser]

I am glad everything worked out well for you!

[Caribbean Chris]

I thought you might find this irritating and relevant to another side of Park West...

On our May 12th Infinity sailing Park West held a private auction for about 80 "guests." They commandeered the Constellation Lounge most evenings knocking out the Elite functions, took over most of Qsine and the USS on some evenings, hosted their guests on shore excursions and still managed to sell one passenger a painting for $106,000. They footed the bills for these elite buyers and even brought on board artists. There is no telling how much they made if their guests were spending that kind of dough on pieces you and I would never lay our eyes on.

We were not among the guests, of course! But we were among the many shut out of seating in the Rendezvous a couple of nights before dinner, definitely the Constellation Lounge and our bonding time with other frequent cruisers, the evenings of our choice in the specialty restaurants etc.

 

Wow, I've always known there are casino high rollers, but never realized there were cruise ship "art" high rollers. Just imagine the mark-up profitability built in, if Park West pays for shore ex, dinners and lots & lots of champagne.

 

I can usually laugh off such goings on, but I'll be ticked off if areas of the ship to the extent you describe are blocked off on my next cruise.

[Banjo]

Wow, I've always known there are casino high rollers, but never realized there were cruise ship "art" high rollers. Just imagine the mark-up profitability built in, if Park West pays for shore ex, dinners and lots & lots of champagne.

 

I can usually laugh off such goings on, but I'll be ticked off if areas of the ship to the extent you describe are blocked off on my next cruise.

 

You be surprised what folks throw out during these auctions, unless they are plants. I had my suspicions.

 

I was on the Carnival Conquest back in the early 2000s and we made it to one these art auctions that was also run by Park West. It was a rainy sea day in the Caribbean. They are pros on selling you a bill of goods and get you worked up with all kinds stories we losing money big time on this painting. You thought they put out the Mona Lisa the way people acted. In the frenzy I bought a small painting that was under $100. Now is displayed in my living room.

 

Since then, never set foot in one those auctions. That's why I like Celebrity, they do know keep you occupied on sea days with more constructive activities.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Banjo

[north29]

My wife is an artist, well a very very good wannabe artist. She feels the art actions are very good, if you are into art history, the performance/lecture the auctioneer gives is very good. But, on our last cruise, we saw painting sell for up to $20K the paintings were left for many to see and god forbid touch. In our local art museum any one that looks like they are about to touch a painting is almost thrown out. Why would anyone buy art under the conditions of a art auction?

 

The art auction gives another activity on board, which we feel X truly needs, since all activities are over crowded and well, just not enough of them.

[suni]

Several year ago we sailed Princess from Barcelona. They had guest artists on board and we really enjoyed the experience. We were invited to special events and really enjoyed getting to know the artists. Not sure if it Park West.

[blindrid]

My wife is an artist, well a very very good wannabe artist. She feels the art actions are very good, if you are into art history, the performance/lecture the auctioneer gives is very good. But, on our last cruise, we saw painting sell for up to $20K the paintings were left for many to see and god forbid touch. In our local art museum any one that looks like they are about to touch a painting is almost thrown out. Why would anyone buy art under the conditions of a art auction?

 

The art auction gives another activity on board, which we feel X truly needs, since all activities are over crowded and well, just not enough of them.

 

I agree totally with you. My DW runs a large art festival and before I would spend $20K on a painting, I would buy it in a "festival" environment as the artist is the one making the money and not paying commission to a cruise line.

 

The artists that come here provide a high quality product and you know what you are getting unlike a cruise lines "auction". Or, at least make an appointment with the artist and go that route.

 

Over the years, we have substantial "additions" to our house that I normally don't know about until it gets delivered. The pitfall of my DW's involvement :).

[Cruise a holic]

We sailed on the Reflection in January. Spent hours at the auction and negotiated a fair price for a piece of artwork. By late March we still had not received the art! Called Celebrity to find out the artist had an issue. I suspect the artist didn't like the price Celebrity sold the piece for. We canceled the piece as we had waited so long. I still am fighting for the credit with Celebrity and have gotten my credit card company involved. Celebrity has responded to the dispute stating it is a legitimate charge. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing! I know I will prevail with this, but the time and phone calls and hassle are ridiculous. Totally turned off to Celebrity . They have handled this poorly and I doubt I will ever sail them again. I know for sure I wont be purchasing any artwork at an auction!

 

Never have been a fan of the "art" auctions. Most of what is sold is prints that aren't worth much. The profit is huge so I "assume" celebrity gets a big piece of the profits. I do not understand why they continue. If people are interested in purchasing art, the ship isn't the place to buy it!. As they say the buyer should beware!

[cle-guy]

Never have been a fan of the "art" auctions. Most of what is sold is prints that aren't worth much. The profit is huge so I "assume" celebrity gets a big piece of the profits. I do not understand why they continue. If people are interested in purchasing art, the ship isn't the place to buy it!. As they say the buyer should beware!

 

That's simple, because people still go to them.

 

and I 100% agree to Buyer Beware, first rule of any purchase one makes.

 

Some people pace different values on different things, I'd probably never buy art on a ship either, but to those who've furnished entire houses with their ship purchases, god bless them.

 

Buit of course If i dod come across some piece I loved I'd buy it, but I'd never do so as an investment or for getting some sort of value from it, only because it's something I may have fallen in love with, which to date, has not yet happened with any cruise ship art display. Although there are several pieces of the Ship's art I would like to have. :D

[Jade13]

This input is interesting. I stated that I believe I will prevail, but reading your responses , I now wonder! Any suggestions for making sure I win this battle ? I never received the artwork! I assume that my credi card compnay will be effective and successful with the dispute . Perhaps I should not assume!

 

Do you have something in writing that the art work is not being sent, rather than being delayed. I would have gone right to Park West. Was your cancellation put in writing to Park West?

 

I understand you got your monery back through your credit card company, but what actually happened to the art work. It would have been a more interesting discussion if you wanted the piece and they didn't send it. I wonder if the same piece was sold and sent to someone else?

 

So, who is the artist, and what type of work?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Jade13

[nana541]

Well today was interesting. Chase, my credit card company, called several times and were very proactive. They have told me that the charge has been reversed and that Celebrity will no longer dispute the charge due the fact that the artwork was "never delivered". All of the advise on this thread was very helpful and helped me the language I used with them this morning.

I promise you, I will NEVER spend another minute at an art auction on any cruise I sail on. Thanks again everyone.

 

 

Suni - just wanted to ask for a "clarification" had you not contacted your CC (Chase) previous to posting in this board? I am surprised they would do much of anything because you had missed the Window to dispute the purchase.

 

Anyway just wondering what made these interactions with the various parties (Chase, Cruiseline, Park West) different from the months of chasing this thing before????

 

 

 

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[blindrid]

Suni - just wanted to ask for a "clarification" had you not contacted your CC (Chase) previous to posting in this board? I am surprised they would do much of anything because you had missed the Window to dispute the purchase.

 

Anyway just wondering what made these interactions with the various parties (Chase, Cruiseline, Park West) different from the months of chasing this thing before????

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

My thoughts are that she "disputed" the charges before but "unauthorized or fraudulent use" is handled differently. Per the Truth in Lending Act, that is a lot more serious than a "dispute".

[nana541]

My thoughts are that she "disputed" the charges before but "unauthorized or fraudulent use" is handled differently. Per the Truth in Lending Act, that is a lot more serious than a "dispute".

 

 

Well I think "Fraud" about sums it up.... Somebody was profiting and keeping the merchandise AND the OP's money! Double speak seemed to be the only answers the OP got :(

 

 

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[hcat]

Well today was interesting. Chase, my credit card company, called several times and were very proactive. They have told me that the charge has been reversed and that Celebrity will no longer dispute the charge due the fact that the artwork was "never delivered". All of the advise on this thread was very helpful and helped me the language I used with them this morning.

I promise you, I will NEVER spend another minute at an art auction on any cruise I sail on. Thanks again everyone.

 

Glad it has been resolved. Glad Celebrity did the right thing and Chase did too! Sorry you had this experience.

 

I had a good experience from Celeb shopping guarantee dept when a Parazul handbag purchased at an approved store started to fray shortly after we got home. They replaced it and even sent an extra scarf and charm that went w/the bag

[ghstudio]

Never have been a fan of the "art" auctions. Most of what is sold is prints that aren't worth much. The profit is huge so I "assume" celebrity gets a big piece of the profits. I do not understand why they continue. If people are interested in purchasing art, the ship isn't the place to buy it!. As they say the buyer should beware!

 

Careful with generalities....some prints actually are worth much (of course we could debate what much means). I have some that I purchased for under $100 that are now worth well over $3000 (eg warhol's Lincoln Center Ticket). However, I don't disagree that the ship is not the place to buy art.....I avoid Park West like the plague.

Edited June 11, 2014 by ghstudio

[beentothere]

I must the only crazy one here.

 

Having been involved in the hospitality industry and retailing for many companies, it is well known that there are standard remedies for this type

of situation. For example, within most leasing contracts there are standards

of performance that are required and have penalties for their not being met.

 

The art goes beyond a simple lease. There are outside store services and activities provided. Celebrity draws a profit from the services and other

arrangements. Therefore they are a party to the purchase whether they like it or not.

 

It appears that a similar event happened to me perhaps 10 years ago.

It took pretty much a year to get a refund. We never got the painting.

 

As Target used to have leased departments...records...etc. they would intervene on the customer's behalf to enforce customary standards.

Where is Celebrity on deciding who their customer is?

 

Leaves a bad taste.....

[BosoxI]

Several year ago we sailed Princess from Barcelona. They had guest artists on board and we really enjoyed the experience. We were invited to special events and really enjoyed getting to know the artists. Not sure if it Park West.

 

We bought our original oil while the guest artist program was sponsored by Princess Fine Art. They really ran a nice program. No pressure, a waiter roamed with "champagne", many, many original works were available, and we had the opportunity to converse with the artist, a very interesting Russian who had made his way through Italy and finally to the USA. And who found time to write his autobiography which has now been published. For a while afterwards, we received emails announcing other guest artist cruises.

 

I just scanned the CC Princess site, and learned that the PFA program has been sold, apparently lock, stock, and barrel, to...ready?...Park West who must have also bought the PFA name, as it is still being used. Many posters are upset, as their experience dealing with PFA was very enjoyable. So it's not only Celebrity that's cutting corners to the dismay of loyal customers. BTW for any Catholics reading this, Princess apparently no longer has priests on board at Christmas and Easter. There were other changes mentioned, too, but I'm incapable of remembering more than two items at a time.;)

[cle-guy]

Suni - just wanted to ask for a "clarification" had you not contacted your CC (Chase) previous to posting in this board? I am surprised they would do much of anything because you had missed the Window to dispute the purchase.

 

Anyway just wondering what made these interactions with the various parties (Chase, Cruiseline, Park West) different from the months of chasing this thing before????

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

Usually a credit card dispute goes like this:

 

My company gives me 6 months from purchase to dispute. There are exceptions, especially when a purchase involves shipping, as that can certainly cause a delay and therefore extend the period allowed for dispute.

 

1. Customer calls and explains situation
   
2. Credit card reverses charge to customer
   
3. Credit card company contacts Merchant whose name is on the credit card statement asking for proof of the sale and relevant backup to be returned with 10 days
   
4. Merchant sends copy of customer signed sales slip or other relevant documentation to Credit card company
   
5. Credit card notifies customer that they have received documentation, that Credit card company believes the documentation is acceptable (often they miss the details in this step...read on....)
   
6. Credit card company recharges the customer's account
   
7. Customer calls back to card company to say, yes I signed, but they needed to ship it to me, I never got it, please check again.
   
8. Credit card again credits off charge to customer
   
9. Credit card again contacts merchant asking for additional information related to the case and now proof of delivery since they now understand it was to be shipped and wasn't taken off by customer in peson
   
10. Merchant now has to provide proof of delivery (here is where the OP finally got satisfaction in the process, Celebrity could not prove delivery, although they could prove the customer signed for the purchase)
    
11. Credit card takes money from merchant so credit card company is whole
    
12. Customer does not get billed again as they had a credit issued above already on the 2nd go round
    
13. Merchant (Cleebrity) now makes Park west reimburse THEM for the chargeback, so Celebrity is now whole
    

Edited June 11, 2014 by cle-guy

[nana541]

Hummm my Chase credit card says 60 days from 1st appearing on the credit card statement to dispute!

 

Fraud may well have a different flavor to the dispute. So I was simply asking the OP what made Chase Bank "all the sudden" jump on this "Dispute" as opposed to what the Bank & the OP were previously doing.

 

What made the difference?

 

I was in Banking for over 30 yrs so I am certainly familiar with your description of the back and forth with the dispute process....

 

Just curious to get an insight as to why now and not 4 weeks ago...

 

 

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[beentothere]

Da difference....

 

pub-li-ci-ty

 

exposure

 

celebrity needs to charge the art company time and materials for lost customer

and staff time wasted.

 

If they don't, they indirectly encourage repetitions of the same.

 

cough cough

 

 

Hummm my Chase credit card says 60 days from 1st appearing on the credit card statement to dispute!

 

Fraud may well have a different flavor to the dispute. So I was simply asking the OP what made Chase Bank "all the sudden" jump on this "Dispute" as opposed to what the Bank & the OP were previously doing.

 

What made the difference?

 

I was in Banking for over 30 yrs so I am certainly familiar with your description of the back and forth with the dispute process....

 

Just curious to get an insight as to why now and not 4 weeks ago...

 

 

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[nana541]

I do not for one minute think, one little thread in Cruise Critic would sway Celebrity even one inch.

 

I believe the OP must have moved his complaint higher up the food chain and possibly had not enlisted for assistance of the Credit Card company before??

 

 

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[cle-guy]

My take on it was they spent a lot of time arguing with Park West. Then gave up and tried with Celebrity who just towed the company line, nothing we can do....

 

Then got credit card company involved, and wasn't clear and concise, so credit card opened dispute and X provided signed sales slip and dispute was closed, in favor of X.

 

Then I suspect OP came here got advice about invoking "proof of delivery" and that got satisfaction in the card dispute process having proved the item was never delivered.

[Max Circus]

I have a similar dispute that I opened with Capital One about a mattress we "purchased" but the company never delivered when they said they would. Long story - but let's just say they kept moving the time of delivery on the scheduled date - and the last one was 10PM!! And they never showed up. Even the next day I got a call from the salesman asking how delivery went and was I happy with the matress- which told me all I needed to know about this company.

 

The fact that I didn't get the merchandise delivered made for a very quick resolution and I got the credit within a day or two of notifying Capital One. The mattress company has no proof it was delivered (I even question if it was even on the delivery truck).

[Cruise a holic]

My take on it was they spent a lot of time arguing with Park West. Then gave up and tried with Celebrity who just towed the company line, nothing we can do....

 

Then got credit card company involved, and wasn't clear and concise, so credit card opened dispute and X provided signed sales slip and dispute was closed, in favor of X.

 

Then I suspect OP came here got advice about invoking "proof of delivery" and that got satisfaction in the card dispute process having proved the item was never delivered.

 

 

I would strongly urge anybody who might consider purchasing "art" onboard a cruise ship first google Park West and other vendors. You might get information regarding issues people might have experienced. It is very interesting.

[blindrid]

I do not for one minute think, one little thread in Cruise Critic would sway Celebrity even one inch.

 

I believe the OP must have moved his complaint higher up the food chain and possibly had not enlisted for assistance of the Credit Card company before??

 

 

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I agree. Some people give too much credence in their posts/threads. I'm in banking now and suggest that fraud is the key over dispute.