Need an accessible stateroom but told that none are available?

[montgomeryfamily]

It has been a matter of great frustration to those of us who are disabled or who have disabled persons sailing with us to be told when we attempt to book a sailing that no accessible staterooms are available because all the accessible cabins are already booked.

 

Yet on the cruise line, roll call, and other board forums, we read posts by able bodied passengers who indicate they have booked an accessible stateroom. Some aren't aware that it is a handicapped accessible stateroom until after it is booked or assigned while others brag at being able to snag the "big" cabin. Most of those posters say that they know they would have to move if the stateroom is needed by a disabled passenger and/or that they would willingly move in such an instance.

 

We all know that the cruise lines claim that they hold these cabins for disabled passengers and don't release them until close to sailing, but we know that some cruise lines don't do that or are inconsistent in how they handle this. All cruise lines also claim they will move an able bodied person from the stateroom if a disabled person needs it, but we also know that this rarely happens.

 

The problem is that once the stateroom is booked, the cruise line shows that it is sold and removes it from their inventory. So if a disabled person calls to book that stateroom, the response is usually that it is not available. It is usually not noted anywhere that the stateroom is occupied by able bodied passengers. It is also difficult to persuade the cruise line to check with the passengers who have booked to determine if the passengers are able bodied or need the accessible stateroom.

 

I encourage anyone who has been told that all the accessible staterooms have been booked to aggressively press the cruise line and/or your TA to check whether the passengers who have booked that accessible stateroom are actually able bodied and, per their own policy, to move them if this is the case so you can be assigned the stateroom. We have done this three times and were successful twice at getting the stateroom.

 

We have a great resource in this board in that we know from the postings that I have referenced of specific staterooms on specific sailings that are booked by able bodied persons. We also know from these postings of certain staterooms on certain ships that apparently are not noted as accessible staterooms on either the cruise line site and/or travel agency sites and are part of the public inventory available to be booked by anyone.

 

By referencing these postings, the disabled or their TA can determine if a specific accessible stateroom on a specific sailing which the cruise line has said is booked, might actually be booked by an able bodied person. This information could help in getting the cruise line to check and apply their policy.

 

In order to minimize the search effort required to find these posts, I propose that we list on this thread this information. The post should include the ship and stateroom information for those staterooms that are not properly noted on the sites as accessible. For those staterooms which an able bodied person has posted as booking, the post should include the specific sailing and stateroom plus the catgory if known. Because the purpose of doing this is to provide information that a disabled person might be able to use to book the cruise, only information for specific cruises which are 3 or 4 weeks from sailing or more should be listed--so no last minute or past information please.

 

It would also be most useful if the thread only contains that information and not personal comments, frustrations, or other narrative. Keeping the issue on point will make the thread more useful by members and travel agents. A new thread can be started for discussions and other comments. It will be hard to restrain myself, but I'm promising to do so. :)

 

So as you read other forums, especially roll calls and cruise line forums, and you find such posts, please take the time to come back here and list this information. If you think it would be useful, you could link to the thread where you found the post.

[montgomeryfamily]

I'll start with information from this post: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=220220

 

NCL cruise line-- Jewel--category BA--stateroom 9672--11/05/06 sailing

 

 

Yes, that is not a typo--the 11/05/06sailing--ok, I'm restraining myself :)

[montgomeryfamily]

Information in the thread linked in the above post indicates that the NCL website does not hold for booking by the disabled the following wheelchair accessible staterooms:

 

NCL--Jewel category BA--stateroom 9672

Jewel category BA--stateroom 9172

[montgomeryfamily]

Please refer back to the thread referenced in the first post and note that the holder of this booked accessible cabin on this itinerary is able bodied and has offered to trade with a disabled person who needs an accessible stateroom on this ship/sailing but has been told that none are available. The Cruise Critic screen name: trishaedge.

 

NCL cruise line-- Jewel--category BA--stateroom 9672--11/05/06 sailing

 

This information is provided for those who may desire to contact her and arrange the exchange. If anyone does so, please note here so that others will know the stateroom is then held by a disabled passenger and not available to other disabled passengers.

[Queenie2]

Here’s an interesting survey I happened across -- according to the ICCL the majority of accessible cabins are not occupied by disabled passengers.

 

http://emerginghorizons.com/blog/2005/08/iccl-says-majority-of-accessible.html

 

 

Of course, you just have to ask “why”.

 

ICCL has an interesting take on it all. Not good mind you, but interesting. It’s just interesting how stats can be manipulated to suit your purpose.

 

Candy

[DEL67]

I know from personal experience that NCL's website does not hold HC cabins for booking by those that need them.

 

Last year when we were planning to take the NCL Wind I was told that only 1 HC cabin was available so I reserved it. Three days later, I saw the HC cabin I wanted listed as available on a website. I was able to call and change to ithe one I wanted, but was annoyed that they released it to general booking 4 months prior to the sail date when there were plenty of regular cabins available.

[lhugheshome]

I booked yesterday and asked for an HC cabin. I was told that none were available. I tried again today with my travel agent and provided more information. Like a Miracle I now have an HC cabin!

 

My father is in need of one...so I am glad that all the abled bodies left it for us.

 

Moral of the story...be persistent!

[Hebe]

I also know that RCCL does not follow the move policy. We were waitlisted for a handicap cabin 10 months. When our TA pushed RCCL is the rooms were booked by people who needed them - they were told that they cannot ask a person why they require the room -- the require a letter but they have no way to really check if the letter was filed.

[DEL67]

Hebe:

 

RCCL did not even ask for a letter for our upcoming transatlantic. Concerned that out TA had missed something I called the special needs desk and was told that they do not need one. However, when I mentioned oxygen, I needed to send them a fitness to travel letter from his doctor.

[jlp20]

Last may we booked a HC stateroom on the Carnival Pride. We picked it because it had a different configuration and the balcony was about 40 feet long versus the standard 10 feet. The cabins above and below were the same configuration and when we first discovered them, we waited three days to be sure our vacations were okayed. By then the “regular” rooms were booked but a HC was available. We finished booking about 45 days before the trip, we were told twice that should the room be need for persons with needs, we would be moved to another stateroom and we accepted that possibility. We were also told that since it was a month and a half before the cruise and there had been no interest we would most likely get the room.

 

I want to mention that when we left the door open, other pax would look at the room and appear envious due to the extra room.

[kitty9]

I'm sorry jlp, but booking the room you did, just because it had a bigger balcony and a larger configuration, is just plain wrong. When the agents at the cruise line have a call from a disabled person looking for an HC cabin, wheter it's 10 months out or just 30 days from embarkation, it doesn't say on their computers that an able bodied person is in that cabin---it just says that it's a cabin that's already booked. And to "brag" that others were envious of the extra space in your cabin, is just not something to be proud of. Do you realize how difficult it is for those of us who are disabled to find accessible cabins---especially if we want to cruise at the last minute because of all the reasons able bodied persons book cruises at the last minute? When any able bodied person book those cabins just because they like the larger cabin/balcony, even if it's within a few weeks of departure, you take away the ability of a disabled person to book that cabin or even cruise for that matter. Like I said, it's easy for a cruise line to say that you would have to move if a disabled person wants the cabin, but it never says on their computer that an able bodied person booked an HC cabin in the first place----it just appears to be another sold space and the disabled person is out of luck---again because someone wanted a bigger cabin and didn't want to pay the higher price for a larger regular cabin. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as a disabled person myself, who has two disabled parents, I'm getting so sick and tired of healthy people booking HC cabins just for their convenience. And to me, it doesn't matter if you book that cabin two years out, or 30 days out, you take away the ability for a disabled person to cruise, even if they need to book at the last minute.

[Starr Mtn]

I'm sorry jlp, but booking the room you did, just because it had a bigger balcony and a larger configuration, is just plain wrong. ...

 

 

Well said, Kitty 9 ! Those AB persons usually add they are willing to be moved if a truly HC person needed the cabin. But - where would they be moved to? Most cruises are fully booked.

 

There are so few accessible cabins anyway , that we then face another obstacle due to someone being so selfish.

 

It's probably the same people who jump ahead when we're trying to maneuver a wheelchair into the elevator ..........

[Splinter]

Where have I heard this before?

 

Could it be....

 

I was just using the handicapped parking while I ran into the store for something quick. There were no handicapped people who needed it at the time...

[jlp20]

I'm sorry jlp, but booking the room you did, just because it had a bigger balcony and a larger configuration, is just plain wrong. When the agents at the cruise line have a call from a disabled person looking for an HC cabin, wheter it's 10 months out or just 30 days from embarkation, it doesn't say on their computers that an able bodied person is in that cabin---it just says that it's a cabin that's already booked.

 

Sorry that you feel wronged simply because you have no idea what your talking about.

 

If you can, follow the logic, if that’s possible. Let’s say a ship has 500 staterooms, and there is only one cabin for special needs. 24-18 months from sailing, tickets are put on sail. One by one the cabins are reserved. I call up and I’m told all 499 of the standards cabins are taken, but the one HC room is available. I pick that cabin and pay the tab. Ten minutes later, someone with special needs calls and is told the ship is sold out. According to you, I should be kicked off the boat.

 

In my case, despite what you believe, I was temporarily assigned a HC cabin AND it was noted we did not REQUIRE special accommodations. On three different occasions, the T/A stated that should some one with a need require that room AND a stateroom of equal grade was available, we would be moved.

We got a call from Carnival the day after we booked the HC cabin and were told the same thing for a fourth time.

 

Despite what you may feel, those with special needs DO NOT HAVE special rights, THEY HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS.

[cjh]

Despite what you may feel, those with special needs DO NOT HAVE special rights, THEY HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS.

 

If it were equal rights then there would be just as many wheelchair accessible cabins as regular cabins!

[jlp20]

If it were equal rights then there would be just as many wheelchair accessible cabins as regular cabins!

 

Negative, equal would mean the same percentage of persons needing HC facilities nationwide would be reflected in percentage of cruise ship cabins that were HC.

 

Using your argument, half of the cabins would be equipped for little people (14 inch chairs and 24 inch counters). Or better yet, because there are a hundred or so people who are allergic to sunlight, all ships must be entirely enclosed.

 

One more thing, before anyone starts throwing the “walk a mile in my shoes” line. Our 25-year-old daughter was born with downs and my wife was recently diagnosed with MS. Not only do we know of what we speak, but also were among others to get laws changed many years back.

 

As with all things that change, the pendulum has swung from extreme left where handicapped were locked away to the extreme right of today where everything is based on the lowest common denominator.

[kitty9]

jlp, I'm an not an imbicile nor am I unable to comprehend basic sentence structure and I do know what I'm talking about. I've been disabled since age 2 because of polio and I was one of the early contributers to the original law PL 94-142 in the 1970's (I testified to the legislature), which became the Americans With Disabilties Act. This "logic" you presented isn't germane to this topic. You never stated you were booking the very last cabin on the ship---that circumstance wasn't a part of your story. In the same light, do you use a disabled parking space because it's the very last space in the entire parking lot and there's no disabled person in sight? Would the police allow you to park in that disabled space and then call you when a person with disabled plates needs to park in that space? I don't think so.

 

And, follow this logic. Did you not clearly state in your original post that, "we picked it because it had a different configuration and the balcony was about 40 feet long versus the standard 10 feet". You picked that cabin because it was bigger and not because it was the last remaining cabin on the ship, and you never stated that it was the very last remaining cabin on the ship. Perhaps if that were the case I, and everyone else, would feel differently, but you never stated that a completely sold out ship was an issue. It's one thing to take the last remaining cabin, but if there were any number of other cabins available, you very well could have booked one of those, regardless of the size/configuration of the room and balcony. You also appeared to be very proud of the fact that others envied your larger cabin.

 

And BTW, I'm not the only one who feels the way I do. I'm sure you'll find others who will agree with what I'm saying. No matter what, no one can justify booking an HC cabin, when other cabins are available, just because it's larger/the last one on that specific deck/the last one that's midship/the only one available that's next to the elevators, etc. And those are just a few of the reasons people have given to justify booking an HC cabin.

 

I, as a disabled American, have NEVER, ever expected special treatment, but only equal treatment and access. But when able bodied persons take away that access by taking a disabled parking space, or booking an HC cabin on a cruise ship, when you don't need it, is taking away my, and other disabled persons' access, and that's when I become upset.

[Pegleg1]

On three different occasions, the T/A stated that should some one with a need require that room AND a stateroom of equal grade was available, we would be moved.

 

Here's the major problem! Should a HC person attempt to book that cruise, your HC room will merely show that it's sold. (Sorry Mr. "Stuck in a wheelchair", we're all booked!)

I seriously doubt that an AB person has ever been removed from a HC room to accomodate a HC passenger. All that talk about "you might be moved to another room" is just that, talk!

The reality of it is that the HC person is out of luck while the AB person goes on to enjoy their cruise in their nice big cabin with the nice big bathroom.

In my opinion, a HC room should NEVER be sold to other than a HC passenger. If the ship sails with an empty cabin, too bad! Maybe then they can sell it as an upgrade to those willing to pay the extra money for that big bathroom.

[Queenie2]

 

As with all things that change, the pendulum has swung from extreme left where handicapped were locked away to the extreme right of today where everything is based on the lowest common denominator.

 

I agree that things have changed drastically over the past 25 years; however the changes you speak of not only benefit disabled people but the general population. Moving away from cruise ships for just one minute, look at universal design and how it's changing the way buildings, products and even neighborhoods are designed.

 

For example, curb-cuts not only benefit wheelchair-users, but also parents who push strollers. Additionally if something is designed with no steps, it benefits business owners as it is less of a liability (for people tripping, falling and injuring themselves). Universal design is just good design and it makes sense. For an excellent blog about universal design (and how it applies to the tourism industry) read Scott Rains blog at http://www.RollingRains.com.

 

Now, as far as the cruise lines go (and I can say this because I cover this subject and am an insider to how things actually work, vs. what customer service tells folks); the Cruise Lines have no way of actually noting if a passenger in an accessible room is disabled. It may be noted on a piece of paper, but not in the computer. The paper info does not make it to the computer.

 

Is it possible for an AB to be bumped from a accessible cabin? Yes, I personally know about three cases in which it happened, but I have to say that in all cases the travel agent booked a lot of PWDs on the particular cruise line and had a special relationship with the people that *can* make this happen, so it was done as a special favor. Sometimes good travel agents can get things done that ordinary passengers cannot. Not always, but sometimes.

 

You know I really have no problem with ABs booking accessible cabins if (and this is a big if) the cruise lines really would flag those cabins as "occupied by an AB -- this cabin is still available to be sold to a disabled passenger", so that all passengers and TAs could see that designation. I mean *really* visible so the average traveler could see that the cabin is available to them if they are disabled. Maybe it will happen some day. Technology is advancing, and I have to say until the Y2K thing happened and hotels upgraded their res software, you never used to be able to book and block an accessible hotel room in advance (the access was just treated as a request, the room was not blocked).

 

Anyway, I do think the ball is in the cruise lines court. And yes they do know this is an issue.

 

Candy

[betsy51556]

I am booked on a Bermuda cruise June 17,2006 they had no HC rooms left. So I took another cabin in hopes that I am upgraded with state ID faxed with a letter from my TA. I am frustrated because i hear people all the time brag about having a HC room and how large and nice it is, I need it and have never been able to get one! I also see many people assume if you turn 65 they are intitled to a handicap parking space just because of a few aches and pains. But they look at me in a nasty way when I park in a handicap space, that is until my kids take my scooter out of the back of my suburban with a lift! Then they feel bad I guess because the stares stop.

There are different degrees of disability but this can't be policed unfortunatly, I need the HC room for several reasons, wide door to bring scooter in and charge it if I can't I have to park it by the elevator and get another reg WC to transfer me to my room and sometimes they are just not available! The shower seat is a must and when I have not had this I have fell. Major problems but some people will never get it. Now then there is the extreme disabled like my daughters best friend she is a quad with no mobility what so ever could not, no way cruise without a HC room. As much as I really need the HC room I feel someone in that situation should come before me even though I have a real disability.

From the many, many cruises I have been on I overhear people braging about there large room and they are running around the ship....shame on you!

The cruise ships need to at very least get state ID.

Talking about that HC spots are also taken while the disabled person sits in the car and the AB person runs into the store? Did you know that is illegal? Also people use the HC spots with their grandfather etc. place cards and park in HC spaces, it is out of hand! How about getting a parking ticket for parking in 2 reg spaces because no HC spaces were available (we live in a resort town) only to go to court to fight it and the court room has NO handicap access!

[luvmy2kids]

I have a positive story. My family was all booked for ov guarantee cabins on the Fantasy 5/22/06 (MONDAY!). Before the last payment was due, my dad found out that he has to begin dialysis. He wanted to make sure his treatment was set up before making a final payment so we canceled his reservation and re-booked 2 days later. My dad is on dialysis, is diabetic, uses a c-pap, needs an HC accessible shower and uses a scooter for long distances due to balance issues and not being able walk for very long. When I called back to re-book his cruise, there were no HC cabins available. (Carnival had all of his medical info already). Well the young lady at the Guest Access Services stayed on the phone with me for 30 minutes and then grabbed my number and called me back to see what they could do for my dad. She called me back an hour later. They moved a person from a HC cabin to a regular cabin and put my dad into the cabin that he needs. And because that must've been the only HC cabin booked to a non-hc person, he got an upgrade from a 6A to a 6D. The people at Guest Access are awesome!

 

E-65 (category 6D, i think) on Carnival Fantasy. (sailing on 5/22/06)

[DEL67]

I was happy to know from luvmy2kids' post that Carnival has not changed. To my knowledge, they are the ONLY cruise line that will move AB passengers out of an HC cabin to accomodate someone who needs it. I just wish other cruise lines would do so also.

[srains]

I agree that things have changed drastically over the past 25 years; however the changes you speak of not only benefit disabled people but the general population. Moving away from cruise ships for just one minute, look at universal design and how it's changing the way buildings, products and even neighborhoods are designed.

 

Anyway, I do think the ball is in the cruise lines court. And yes they do know this is an issue.

 

Candy

 

Over the years when I need an intelligent, level-headed, and well-informed colleague to help me puzzle through some perplexing aspect of accessibility and the tourism industry I turn to Candy Harrington, her blog, her magazine, or one of her books. The fact that she recommends my blog, the Rolling Rains Report, in her post above makes my praise of her work something of an indirect boast but it is nevertheless true that Candy has a way of seeing to the heart of the matter. People regularly follow her note recommending Universal Design for cruise ships to my blog at www.RollingRains.com but post topics vary from day to day so here is a summary of the argument.

 

This thread documents the persistence of demand and the absence of supply for rooms variously called, depending on the clientele, “accessible” or “big.”

 

Those of us who have shaped disability rights legislation over the past several decades approach the accessible cabin bottleneck with the knowledge that “disability is not destiny”; that a lack of function (dis-ability) on our part is distinct from the failure to design inclusive space (handicapping social conditions; discrimination.) Arguing our case, the time-tested response is to invoke a coherent logic of inclusive justice as Darcie has done or a judicial response as Julia Hollenbeck has done in Spector et al vs. Norwegian Cruise Lines. Counterarguments may strike us as tedious or cynical but ridicule of civil rights efforts has gained a faithful following in both ideology and practice.

 

 

As cruise passengers we are primarily consumers who are frequently protected by neither the laws nor the common sense arguments of our home. Universal Design offers some principles for a new consensus on “common sense.”

 

We are customers in a cruise industry business plan that treats us as an afterthought. I do not mean to say that there are not plenty of intelligent, ethical individuals with our best interest in mind working at all levels of the industry. I mean that by definition we are not included in the core customer base from which all assumptions about product design and policy flow.

 

What appears to be “special treatment” is a patchwork of retrofits at odds with the industry’s fundamental business decisions. The fundamental decision to exclude is manifest most clearly in ship design with ripple effects distorting port, tender, and land package design. The battle over scarce appropriate cabins cannot be solved by tweaking reservation systems. This is true even if cruise lines resolved to no longer abdicate their responsibility for tranparent and appropriate allocation of accessible cabins. They painting themselves into the dead end corner of a “minimum number of accessible rooms quota.” They adopted exclusion through quotas as a business policy rather than inclusion through design as a product development strategy. The answer to a flawed business plan is an improved business plan.

 

Universal Design is a different answer to this supply & demand puzzle. It sees this undersupply as a clear call to moving passengers with a broader range of abilities into the core image of who cruise consumers are. It points out a way for the cruise industry to increase profits; to “do well by doing good.” As consumers we do ourselves a service by becoming knowledgeable about Universal Design.

 

Universal Design provides seven principles that define us as consumers – right at the conceptual center of an expanded view of who an industry’s market is and thus how its products must be created, marketed, and superceded.

 

I see from the signature blocks of some posters that they would make exceptional evangelists if they do like I do. Talk to other passengers with disabilities on your cruise. Visit their rooms and collect their stories. Arrange to meet with the ship’s hotel manager a few days into the cruise. Let them know how often you cruise. Tell them what they have done right. Give them a couple concrete solutions for what needs improvement but, most importantly, introduce them to the seven principles of Universal Design so that they can begin to introduce the concept from their position within the company.

 

Universal Design may be the win-win approach we need.

 

The seven principles of Universal Design are:

 

1. Equitable Use: The design does not disadvantage or stigmatize any group of users.

 

2. Flexibility in Use: The design accommodates a wide range of individual preferences and abilities.

 

3. Simple, Intuitive Use: Use of the design is easy to understand, regardless of the user's experience, knowledge, language skills, or current concentration level.

 

4. Perceptible Information: The design communicates necessary information effectively to the user, regardless of ambient conditions or the user's sensory abilities.

 

5. Tolerance for Error: The design minimizes hazards and the adverse consequences of accidental or unintended actions.

 

6. Low Physical Effort: The design can be used efficiently and comfortably, and with a minimum of fatigue.

 

7. Size and Space for Approach & Use: Appropriate size and space is provided for approach, reach, manipulation, and use, regardless of the user's body size, posture, or mobility.

 

For more information on their application in the travel and hospitality industry see http://www.RollingRains.com

[Sarahsmom85]

I also have a positive story but it was not an AB person that moved it was a

WC person. We booked a double w/c room and at the last minute my daughter decided she needed to come with us. Couldn't believe we would actually go without her. We then need a triple w/c room. None was available. Luckly the cruise line RCCI found that they had a double in a triple room and asked if they would mind changing. Come to find out there family was on the floor we had, and they there happy to change.

Our new cruise our friends talked my W/C bound DH into trying a balcony room. The cruise line Costa only had 2 room both booked. So we are now booked again on a inside room. Our 2008 cruise we are early enough for a balcony room.

On our last cruise RCCi I did make a point of checking out the rooms on both sides of us that where also HC. Both room did have people in them that needed them. In fact I was pleased to see quite a few people in wheelchairs cruising. If more and more people cruise then they will have to make things more and more accessible. Transportion has always been our biggest problem. Even that has been getting better and better.

[mattyboy]

Do you remember the name and number of the person at Carnival that you spoke to. Would greatly appreciate it.