Why doesn't Princess just do this?

[jbobst]

I pretty much agree with the OP on all his/her points. But lets forget about upgrading loyal customers to the vacant suites, how about Princess just prices these suites more realistically? I think there is a big difference between the 3 day Ensenada cruise and a normal 7+ day cruise. I was looking at one of the 3 day cruises on the Golden and thought how nice it would be to do another Windows suite again. I think the price per person on the Window suite was something like $785 a person (before all the other fees)!!! So they want to charge me over $1500 for my wife and I for a short three day cruise to the arm pit of Mexico? That is just way too expensive for such a short cruise going to a bad destination. And, Window Suites are quite a bit less than regular suites, so it's no wonder they aren't selling the regular suites on these short cruises.

Edited October 30, 2014 by jbobst

[redtogo]

We are on the Grand Princess in about a week. The suites were put on an upsell offer. We received a call and opted into get one. When we chose the suite that we wanted, all of the penthouse suites on the Caribe Deck midship were avaiable as well as 2 on the Aft Caribe and Baja Decks. The two grand suites were available and 2Premium suites were avaiable. There were a total of 20 suite cabins (not including mini suites) that we could have chosen. We already had a mini suite, Dolphin 322.

 

The next day a lady that I chat with was contacted and there was only one penthouse, midship Caribe Deck available.

 

Full suites do go on upsell. That's what we got through the upsell. The price was very reasonable, not $2,000 p/p. It was a really good deal!

 

Maybe people cancelled after the nurse was on the Carnival Magic, fearing contact with disease. I know there was a lot of discussion on people canceling.

 

I'm glad Princess did upsell the suites and I'm glad we were of the first called, as we had a choice. Some suites have partially obstructed views. The Princess rep advised us of all the different types, and what they did or did not have.

Edited October 31, 2014 by redtogo

[KruzeKrazy!]

The real equation is what did YOU pay and what enjoyment do YOU get in return. That ratio is your vacation ROI.

 

If you worry about what everyone else paid do you also worry if they are having a better or worse time than you?

 

If so I guess you never drive a car because everyone else on the road maybe paid a different price... :- )

[Susie51]

Great thread. I never thought of the disadvantages of an upsell.

 

An upgrade is when you move up a category without paying extra. An upsell is when you pay extra for a move up to a category. We have taken advantage of both upgrades and upsells.

[Gr8Mariner]

The only thing you are missing is a time machine.

 

You need to go back 10+ years to find a butler on Princess.

 

Sometimes talking about cruising makes me wish for the time machine...I wish I had a time machine to go back to the Royal Caribbean upgrade we got that had a grand piano or the NCL upgrade with a hot tub on the balcony...and both had two butlers.

 

And both were half the price of our balcony cabins on Crystal and our stateroom on SeaDream (which doesn't have any balconies).

 

That said, none of the above had Quantum's bumper cars.

[FawnRiver]

Our very first cruise, we were on the Crown for 7 day Western Caribbean cruise. We had a mid ship mini booked (I was afraid I'd get seasick, never having been on a ship before). Our TA called and told us Princess had upgraded us to an Aft Suite :eek:, which I didn't want to take (again, the seasickness thing) but DH talked me into it.

 

Of course, we loved it and Princess managed to hook us in good (see below ;))

 

Princess is better off to use upgrades to hook in new customers than to reward old ones, IMHO.

 

That having been said, for our next two cruises, we have been offered upgrades (balcony to better balcony), one we took and the other we negotiated down to a room better than the one we booked, but not as highly rated as Princess wanted to give us. We've never (to this point) received an upsale offer.

[Bruin Steve]

Allow me to rephrase all of this into simple economics:

 

There is now less than three weeks to go until embarkation.

 

For the past several days, ALL cabin categories have been shown as "SOLD OUT" with the exception of 23 remaining suites--18 Penthouse or Vista Suites, 5 Window Suites...

 

The Penthouse/Vista Suites are showing as available between $1049 and $1089 per person, the Window Suites at $659 per person.

 

This number of available suites hasn't changed since the day they tried the big upsell on current minisuite passengers. IOW, these suites just aren't selling...And, as we get closer to sail date, the chances of selling them appear even more remote. Last year, same cruise, same dates, the same exact situation. Odds are the ship sales with these 23 cabins empty.

 

They could upgrade 23 select customers without advertising any lower rates, without alerting anyone else that someone is getting a bargain. They just move 23 very happy couples and no one else really knows any better...

 

...and three weeks from sailing, they suddenly have 23 lower category cabins available for sale. Categories that they have had little trouble selling, albeit for lower prices than the suites...Minisuites at $369 per person, for example...

 

Someone looking for a last minute cruise may be scared away seeing "Suites starting at $1049 per person". Yup, when you first pull up the cruise it doesn't even tell you that those window suites are available at $659 pp. This likely scares away any potential customers. If they had minisuites or balconies available at $369 per person or $269 per person, they would likely sell them...

 

So, say you upgraded 23 people from minisuites to suites...and opened up 23 minisuites...or even 18 minisuites and 5 ocean views (assuming no one wanted to exchange a balcony for a window suite)...

 

You could now sell those 18 minisuites for $369 per person=$13,284...and those 5 ocean views for $269 (yeah, they were selling at the same price as balconies)...$269 times two times five=$2,690...That's $15,974 of additional income on cruise fare alone...Plus 46 additional passengers paying $12 per person per night in tips to the crew=$1,656 in revenue directly to the crew...$17,630 in additional revenue even if these 46 passengers don't buy a single drink, go on a single shore excursion or gamble a cent in the casino or at bingo.

 

Princess would have to sell over 8 of those remaining Penthouse or Vista Suites over the remaining 20 days in order to match that revenue...

 

Waiting until sail date and springing a surprise upgrade on a few doesn't accomplish this since you leave yourself no time to market the newly vacant cabins...It is something they should have done already. And I don't really care who they choose to reward--I'm not arguing about who deserves the upgrade or where the upgrade buys the most PR--just that it maximizes your revenue off the cruise.

[Loonbeam]

The issue is not the $17K for this cruise (BTW, upsell offers often get booked into the system as guarantees, so you many not see them off availability. Also, if they are doing the GTY shuffle some cats may reopen).

 

Yes, they may make $17K additional on this cruise. The actual question though is doing so as a policy going to devalue suites more than $17K on other itineraries, and the marketing economics may say yes to that.

 

There are over 100 suites at sea on any given day. If you devalue those overall, that's a net loss of $5K per day, every day for an $50 per diem.

 

If the numbers worked, they would do it , but its more than just one cruise the system has to take into account.

 

It's the same reason that you see empty business class flights on international routes. Sure, they could generate some goodwill by moving people out of coach or even generate revenue by selling cheap upgrades at the gate, but they long ago realized that doing so diminishes the first class 'brand' and thus they don't.

 

The reason Princess (and other lines) don't do it, is that it's a bad idea for Princess, pretty much.

 

Allow me to rephrase all of this into simple economics:

 

There is now less than three weeks to go until embarkation.

 

For the past several days, ALL cabin categories have been shown as "SOLD OUT" with the exception of 23 remaining suites--18 Penthouse or Vista Suites, 5 Window Suites...

 

The Penthouse/Vista Suites are showing as available between $1049 and $1089 per person, the Window Suites at $659 per person.

 

This number of available suites hasn't changed since the day they tried the big upsell on current minisuite passengers. IOW, these suites just aren't selling...And, as we get closer to sail date, the chances of selling them appear even more remote. Last year, same cruise, same dates, the same exact situation. Odds are the ship sales with these 23 cabins empty.

 

They could upgrade 23 select customers without advertising any lower rates, without alerting anyone else that someone is getting a bargain. They just move 23 very happy couples and no one else really knows any better...

 

...and three weeks from sailing, they suddenly have 23 lower category cabins available for sale. Categories that they have had little trouble selling, albeit for lower prices than the suites...Minisuites at $369 per person, for example...

 

Someone looking for a last minute cruise may be scared away seeing "Suites starting at $1049 per person". Yup, when you first pull up the cruise it doesn't even tell you that those window suites are available at $659 pp. This likely scares away any potential customers. If they had minisuites or balconies available at $369 per person or $269 per person, they would likely sell them...

 

So, say you upgraded 23 people from minisuites to suites...and opened up 23 minisuites...or even 18 minisuites and 5 ocean views (assuming no one wanted to exchange a balcony for a window suite)...

 

You could now sell those 18 minisuites for $369 per person=$13,284...and those 5 ocean views for $269 (yeah, they were selling at the same price as balconies)...$269 times two times five=$2,690...That's $15,974 of additional income on cruise fare alone...Plus 46 additional passengers paying $12 per person per night in tips to the crew=$1,656 in revenue directly to the crew...$17,630 in additional revenue even if these 46 passengers don't buy a single drink, go on a single shore excursion or gamble a cent in the casino or at bingo.

 

Princess would have to sell over 8 of those remaining Penthouse or Vista Suites over the remaining 20 days in order to match that revenue...

 

Waiting until sail date and springing a surprise upgrade on a few doesn't accomplish this since you leave yourself no time to market the newly vacant cabins...It is something they should have done already. And I don't really care who they choose to reward--I'm not arguing about who deserves the upgrade or where the upgrade buys the most PR--just that it maximizes your revenue off the cruise.

[Corfe Mixture]

Allow me to rephrase all of this into simple economics:

 

There is now less than three weeks to go until embarkation.

 

For the past several days, ALL cabin categories have been shown as "SOLD OUT" with the exception of 23 remaining suites--18 Penthouse or Vista Suites, 5 Window Suites...

 

The Penthouse/Vista Suites are showing as available between $1049 and $1089 per person, the Window Suites at $659 per person.

 

This number of available suites hasn't changed since the day they tried the big upsell on current minisuite passengers. IOW, these suites just aren't selling...And, as we get closer to sail date, the chances of selling them appear even more remote. Last year, same cruise, same dates, the same exact situation. Odds are the ship sales with these 23 cabins empty.

 

They could upgrade 23 select customers without advertising any lower rates, without alerting anyone else that someone is getting a bargain. They just move 23 very happy couples and no one else really knows any better...

 

...and three weeks from sailing, they suddenly have 23 lower category cabins available for sale. Categories that they have had little trouble selling, albeit for lower prices than the suites...Minisuites at $369 per person, for example...

 

Someone looking for a last minute cruise may be scared away seeing "Suites starting at $1049 per person". Yup, when you first pull up the cruise it doesn't even tell you that those window suites are available at $659 pp. This likely scares away any potential customers. If they had minisuites or balconies available at $369 per person or $269 per person, they would likely sell them...

 

So, say you upgraded 23 people from minisuites to suites...and opened up 23 minisuites...or even 18 minisuites and 5 ocean views (assuming no one wanted to exchange a balcony for a window suite)...

 

You could now sell those 18 minisuites for $369 per person=$13,284...and those 5 ocean views for $269 (yeah, they were selling at the same price as balconies)...$269 times two times five=$2,690...That's $15,974 of additional income on cruise fare alone...Plus 46 additional passengers paying $12 per person per night in tips to the crew=$1,656 in revenue directly to the crew...$17,630 in additional revenue even if these 46 passengers don't buy a single drink, go on a single shore excursion or gamble a cent in the casino or at bingo.

 

Princess would have to sell over 8 of those remaining Penthouse or Vista Suites over the remaining 20 days in order to match that revenue...

 

Waiting until sail date and springing a surprise upgrade on a few doesn't accomplish this since you leave yourself no time to market the newly vacant cabins...It is something they should have done already. And I don't really care who they choose to reward--I'm not arguing about who deserves the upgrade or where the upgrade buys the most PR--just that it maximizes your revenue off the cruise.

 

It all boils down to marketing, as opposed to selling.

Selling is all about maximising revenue in the time frame being viewed by the individual making the sale.

Marketing is the management of perception of value with the objective of maximising business revenue over an extended period.

 

The classic example of this, used by virtually all business schools to explain the difference, is the guy with the fresh vegetable stall in a street market. He will never discount the remaining stock, or undercut the other stallholders, just to clear his shelves at the end of they day, even if this means that he has to throw produce away. Why? It is because successful street traders have probably the best understanding of market behaviour anywhere in the world and they all know that housewives are also canny and all talk to each other and that if just one of them does it one week, then the next week no one will sell anything until the last minute.

 

If Princess followed your proposal they would potentially damage the perception of the value of the premium product, and create an expectation of free upgrades to folks whereby those regular clients who understand the process try to play the 'game', very much in the way some people deliberately choose to go for guaranteed cabins because they know there is a distinct possibility of getting a higher grade than they have purchased.

 

Unfortunately, whilst it may seem wrong in the eyes of their regular clients, if Princess were going to offer premium products to anyone, they would probably be more inclined to offer them as bait to tempt new customers or alternatively fill them by quietly offering them at a very deep discount to staff. This is because the former may generate future revenues whilst the latter would generate short term trading revenues without damaging the perception of the value of the premium product.

 

So, sadly for all of us who regularly cruise with Princess, whilst your idea might good short term trading, it is probably not good marketing. If it was Princess would already be doing it.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Corfe Mixture

[SoCal Cruiser78]

I have read this thread with great interest, wondering like BruinSteve and others why Princess does what is does with regard to sales and marketing.

 

My take is that if Princess routinely sails with other categories full, but suites almost empty, either they are charging too much for suites, not offering enough suite amenities to make them worthwhile to those who can afford them, or both.

 

It would appear that Princess suites are exempt from their yield management software, or else they would have fares that dropped until they sold. I understand completely wanting to maintain the image and integrity of suites and their pricing, but there does seem to be an oversupply for whatever reason. Perhaps some of those suites should be split into minis, which seem to have no trouble filling on most sailings?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Ryndam2002
spellling

[RetiredNTraveling]

Butlers on all Celebrity suites, even the smallest ones.

 

Clue me in please. What is the difference in service between a "Butler" and a "Steward"? Thanks.

 

The real equation is what did YOU pay and what enjoyment do YOU get in return. That ratio is your vacation ROI.

 

If you worry about what everyone else paid do you also worry if they are having a better or worse time than you?

 

We have had upsells on the last three cruise where we booked Mini-Suites to Penthouse Suites. Each time the experience was completely worth the added expense. So I guess that you could say, "ROI was great!" :eek::D We agree that it is all about enjoyment and that is what we cruise for! Thanks for your neat insight! :D

[Bruin Steve]

Perhaps some of those suites should be split into minis, which seem to have no trouble filling on most sailings?

 

I think the ones that make the least sense are the "window suites" on Deck 6...

There are seven of these 341 square foot suites WITHOUT BALCONIES...

 

On this cruise, five of the seven remain unbooked--and asking $659 per person...

Would it not have been better to have built this ship with fourteen 170 square foot unobstructed Ocean View Cabins in place of these? They could have been filled, generating approximately the SAME revenue as the seven alleged suites. All of the other Ocean Views sold out weeks ago...

 

I have cruised in inside cabins, balconies and in suites...When I had limited expendable cash, I saved by booking insides...For splurges, I've booked suites...and, generally, I book balconies...But I never saw the logic in paying an inflated price for a cabin without a balcony--basically double the price of a balcony--for a "Window Suite". What exactly is the thinking with these??

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...But I never saw the logic in paying an inflated price for a cabin without a balcony--basically double the price of a balcony--for a "Window Suite". What exactly is the thinking with these??

 

I think window suites would be fine on something like the QM2 doing TA runs much of the time when too cold for a balcony. Princess does very few TAs, so I agree they don't make much sense for them. People seem to want balconies even on the Alaska runs.

 

The passengers that were used to paying high prices for porthole suites in the pre-balcony era are aging out of the market, so my guess is we won't see any more window suites on newbuilds.

[caribill]

But I never saw the logic in paying an inflated price for a cabin without a balcony--basically double the price of a balcony--for a "Window Suite". What exactly is the thinking with these??

 

You are paying for the extra space and the extra amenities.

 

Some families with small children may not want a balcony which has a door a toddler could open and go out on.

[caribill]

my guess is we won't see any more window suites on newbuilds.

 

The existing window suites were add-ons during ship renovations, not there when the ships were first built.

 

It appears to be an experiment that failed in that they are often hard to sell.

 

I would not expect them to be added on any other existing ship either.

[Loonbeam]

That would be a false assumption. Some routes do sell less suites than others, typically the shorter cruise, but they are often gone early on others (for example, on our Panama Canal run, all suites were booked pretty much 3 weeks after release. One or two did open up here and there as people cancelled, etc. Alaska was similar)

 

Classes of ship matter as well, because that varies the number of suites, and features of those suites.

 

Suites are in the YMS, but not in the same 'bucket' as standard cabins, and they do adjust pricing. I may agree that the pricing floor is too high, but Princess apparently doesn't.

 

 

I have read this thread with great interest, wondering like BruinSteve and others why Princess does what is does with regard to sales and marketing.

 

My take is that if Princess routinely sails with other categories full, but suites almost empty, either they are charging too much for suites, not offering enough suite amenities to make them worthwhile to those who can afford them, or both.

 

It would appear that Princess suites are exempt from their yield management software, or else they would have fares that dropped until they sold. I understand completely wanting to maintain the image and integrity of suites and their pricing, but there does seem to be an oversupply for whatever reason. Perhaps some of those suites should be split into minis, which seem to have no trouble filling on most sailings?

[Bruin Steve]

Clue me in please. What is the difference in service between a "Butler" and a "Steward"? Thanks.

 

To tell you the truth, having the butler could be seen as a case of "overkill"...but you really do get "special treatment"...

 

We've had suites with butlers on both Celebrity and on Oceania...

 

The first time we had a butler was when we did Alaska on Celebrity Summit. We took our then 18 and 20 year old daughters and had two side-by-side "Sky Suites". My wife and I couldn't find much use for the butler at all, but my daughters pretty much abused him...They had him serving them breakfast in their suite, bringing them DVDs for the TV...making their spa reservations, etc. We also rarely opened our own door to our cabin. He often just hovered around near the cabin and, when he saw us coming down the hall, was there to open the door for us...He also gave us regular reports on when the girls came and went...

 

When we last had butler service, it was on Oceania Marina a couple of summers ago...We had an Oceania Suite (over 1,000 square feet--living room, dining room, Video room, two bathrooms, walk-in closet, jacuzzi tub, jacuzzi n balcony, TV on balcony, etc.). We actually had both a butler and an assistant butler...as well as a cabin steward and two assistant cabin stewards...

 

The stewards, basically, clean the room, make the bed, change the towels and linen, vacuum, dust, etc. The butlers brought us breakfast, set it up in the dining room, even served...Our butler stocked and restocked our bar, even poured me drinks if he were around during my pre-dinner cocktails...He (or his assistant) made us additional reservations in the specialty restaurants, brought us daily newspapers and pre-dinner appetizers...sort of acted as our "personal assistant" on the ship...

 

The addition of butlers really does take the level of service up several notches from the usual great service one gets from the cabin steward. To most of us--who are used to doing everything for ourselves back home--service from a cabin steward alone is clearly much more than we are used to...

 

But, cabin stewards are very busy cleaning and picking up after a large number of rooms--so they are spread a bit thin...and they won't do EVERYTHING for you...Butlers, generally, have only a few suites to look after and don't have to clean...So they have the time to devote to really looking after you... For some people it can feel a bit intrusive--more than some people want. For others, it's a sign of superior service.

 

Every butler we have had has been from India...They apparently have a school there that specifically trains butlers. They always speak perfect English and are VERY professional.

 

If one is paying, often, three to five times the price of a balcony cabin for a suite, one expects a little more than a larger room with a bathtub and a nicer robe...

 

On Oceania, for example, for our suite, we got the really nice suite (much bigger and nicer appointed than the suites on Princess) plus a fully stocked bar (Black Label Scotch, Grey Goose Vodka, plus top quality Gin and Rum--I don't recall the labels because I had our butler remove them and replace them with extra bottles of Black Label... My wife had the Vodka--red wine, white wine, champagne plus a fridge loaded with soft drinks, juices and mixers), extra priority pre-cruise reservations for the specialty restaurants (free, of course--eight of them on our 16 night cruise...we also booked a couple of extras through our butler...and got invited, gratis, to a multi course wine-pairing dinner in La Reserve--one table, 16 seats, hosted by Executive Chef Jacques Pepin)...all sorts of other little extras...I mean, the cruise line really has to justify the price...give you a lot for paying the freight for a suite.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Bruin Steve

[caribill]

 

It would appear that Princess suites are exempt from their yield management software, or else they would have fares that dropped until they sold.

 

Las Vegas has some hotels with very fancy suites going for $20,000 a night or more.

 

I bet they do not discount them at the last moment when they are not booked. I bet they also do not upgrade anybody in a regular room to them and then try to sell the regular room for $150.

Edited November 4, 2014 by caribill

[caribill]

I never saw the logic in paying an inflated price for a cabin without a balcony--basically double the price of a balcony--for a "Window Suite". What exactly is the thinking with these??

 

Posted on another thread by critterchcik

 

I just received my first ever upgrade call (have had an upsell offer that I accepted) and turned it down.:eek: We have a Window Suite this weekend and the call was to upgrade to a suite with balcony. We love the location and layout of the WS so decided to stay put for a 3-night cruise.

[shredie]

But I never saw the logic in paying an inflated price for a cabin without a balcony--basically double the price of a balcony--for a "Window Suite". What exactly is the thinking with these??

 

Again, that illusive concept: some people like things that others don't. :D If you read around, you might find that window suite people love them and prefer them to the balconies. Perhaps there is a larger group who wants a balcony, which is probably why there are so few window suites, but one person's "logic" isn't necessarily everyone's. :)

Edited November 4, 2014 by shredie

[cvpends]

Interestingly, the sailing that Bruin Steve originally posted about -- and I also will be sailing -- is no longer showing any cabins available. I wonder what happened to those 25 suites :eek: ?

[Bruin Steve]

Interestingly, the sailing that Bruin Steve originally posted about -- and I also will be sailing -- is no longer showing any cabins available. I wonder what happened to those 25 suites :eek: ?

 

I think they were just "resetting" the web page...

 

The cruise is back up this morning and it looks like they managed a couple more upsells...

 

Right now it shows one available balcony, one available minisuite...and 20 suites...

For 4 or 5 days prior to the reset it was just showing 23 available suites...

 

I'm guessing they talked three more people into upsells...and then sold off one of the lower category cabins that became available...

 

I'm guessing they are just going to keep plugging away at upselling to try to move those 20 remaining suites...Also, they've raised the prices on the two other available cabins to $384 on the balcony and $509 on the minisuite...with no OBC....

 

Likely they think they can squeeze a few more dollars out of the existing bookings on the upsell...and gain the rest by selling the other cabins at the higher price...But, 19 days to go, they'd better hurry...

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...Likely they think they can squeeze a few more dollars out of the existing bookings on the upsell...and gain the rest by selling the other cabins at the higher price...But, 19 days to go, they'd better hurry...

 

It is interesting to watch online how availability changes from day to day, or even within a day sometimes. I have seen cruises appear sold out for days, then suddenly open up in multiple categories.

 

As you mentioned, I have also seen just one or two cabins per category open up close to sailing date, and prices for them climb. I suppose this is the cruise-ship equivalent of the $$$ walk-up fare the airlines use.

[caribill]

Also, they've raised the prices on the two other available cabins to $384 on the balcony and $509 on the minisuite...with no OBC....

 

 

Flash sale pricing which is available through travel agents may be lower that what you can see on the Princess web site.

[Bruin Steve]

Okay...

Final follow-up:

 

After getting down to 25 cabins left--all suites, Princess clearly set forth on an UPSELL drive...and managed to move exactly three suites that way...

 

After the two minisuites and one balcony that became available sold off, the numbers settled back in at 22 unsold cabins...All Suites...and remained that way for a few days...

 

Then, suddenly, about 3 or 4 days ago, the entire cruise appeared as "Sold Out" and has remained that way ever since...

 

Not wishing to leave it any longer to internet speculation here on Cruise Critic, I posed the question to the best source I know...I get together every Wednesday morning for coffee with a small group of friends. One of them is a gentleman who was a 37 year employee of Princess who just retired as a Vice President (Remember, I live in Southern California, not far from Princess HQ)...

 

So, I figured that, if anyone would know, he would...So I asked him this morning: "What happened to those last 22 suites?"

 

His immediate response: "22 people were upgraded...FREE upgrades"...

So, I asked "Wouldn't that have freed up 22 other cabins for this sailing?"

His response: "Either they already had 22 others...or most of them...signed up and willing to take any category cabin--perhaps unassigned or guarantees...But, if not, they have a list of people they can call and unload the cabins at a favorable price...They won't sale empty".

 

So, basically, Princess DOES upgrade select people for free when it comes down to the wire...and they sell off those last remaining cabins in an unadvertised fire sale if need be...

 

My source is unimpeachable...