QM2 gratuities

[violetta58]

We have been on about 15 voyages with Cunard and 4 on the QV and always auto tip as well as give envelopes out the last night to waiting staff and our stewards. On the trip we got off yesterday a funny thing happened, it said on our statement that on the first day of the cruise the auto tip had been removed .We did not request this and the purser could not either.We wondered if that particular cruise had the tips included .Anyone had a similar experience

[violetta58]

We have been on about 15 voyages with Cunard and 4 on the QV and always auto tip as well as give envelopes out the last night to waiting staff and our stewards. On the trip we got off yesterday a funny thing happened, it said on our statement that on the first day of the cruise the auto tip had been removed .We did not request this and the purser could not explain it either.We wondered if that particular cruise had the tips included .Anyone had a similar experience?

[Margana]

At any rate, Cunard's tipping policy can hardly be considered a performance-based system, because it is collective and near-compulsory, rather than individual .../QUOTE]

 

Two points: much of the quality of service Cunard strives to provide is team-based, so the fact that the tipping policy is partially collective does not make it non-performance related; the fact that any decent person removing the gratuities would explain why certainly does make it performance related; and the fact that Cunard refers to additional tips being given in cases of really superior service further demonstrates the performance-based nature of Cunard's approach to compensation.

 

We are aware of the lack of familiarity/comfort many UK residents have with the concept of tipping, but the world is bigger than the UK. Tipping is a common practice in many parts of the world - including those parts where many of the staff who provide the services on Cunard's ships are recruited. To the extent passengers claim an ethical or moral basis for their opposition to tipping, they might demonstrate it by simply avoiding lines which apply the practice.

 

 

From Oxford English Dictionary

 

tip, noun(plural tips).

A small present of money given to an inferior, esp. to a servant or employee of another for a service rendered or expected; a gratuity, a douceur.

Wage,noun (plural wages)

 

A fixed regular payment earned for work or services, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis:

Salary, noun (plural salaries)

 

A fixed regular payment, typically paid on a monthly basis but often expressed as an annual sum, made by an employer to an employee, especially a professional or white-collar worker:

 

What is so difficult about understanding the differences?

There’s nothing performance related about an automatic payment which is used to pay wages. If the crew worked at 50% efficiency they would still have the auto-gratuity payment.

Many posters have travelled extensively with Cunard, not just once. Some have noted that they have removed auto-gratuities with no explanation required or given. To suggest that they are less than decent because they do not proffer an explanation (which is not required) is consistent with previous less than subtle comments made, and which appear, thankfully , to have been removed.

To suggest, after one cruise on Cunard, that others who do not adhere to your particular viewpoint should cruise elsewhere, is for want of a better word –interesting.

[navybankerteacher]

 

 

From Oxford English Dictionary

 

tip, noun(plural tips).

A small present of money given to an inferior, esp. to a servant or employee of another for a service rendered or expected; a gratuity, a douceur.

 

 

What is so difficult about understanding the differences?

There’s nothing performance related about an automatic payment which is used to pay wages.

Many posters have travelled extensively with Cunard, not just once. Some have noted that they have removed auto-gratuities with no explanation required or given. To suggest that they are less than decent because they do not proffer an explanation (which is not required) is consistent with previous less than subtle comments made, and which appear, thankfully , to have been removed.

 

You continue to resist understanding the crucial fact that the auto-gratuities are removable. The fact that they can be removed means that they are not "automatic".

 

It is becoming tiresome listening to people who, while professing to believe "decent living wages" should be paid and that the crew should not have to rely on tips, state that they remove the auto-gratuities without being asked for an explanation.

 

Cunard has struck agreement with their staff as to conditions of employment. Ihave sailed with Cunard, and will again, because I appreciate the level of service. I find it extraordinary that someone who presumably likes the service and then removes a portion of the compensation paid the providers of that service feels no obligation to, at the least, explain his rationale for removing such a significant portion of that compensation. Of course, it can be claimed to be a protest against what is seen as an unfair system of pay - but it is hard to justify such a protest which penalizes the supposed victims of the system rather than the perpetrator. If one does not like the system - sailing on a different line seems a more appropriate protest.

 

But please: try to understand what the adjective "removable" means when used in connection with the term "automatic payment".

[Normandie_Nostalgic]

You continue to resist understanding the crucial fact that the auto-gratuities are removable. The fact that they can be removed means that they are not "automatic".

But please: try to understand what the adjective "removable" means when used in connection with the term "automatic payment".

 

Auto-gratuities are removable, that is true. The 15% charge on top of pretty much anything one orders on board is not. And even for the portion of gratuity that one can actually opt-out of, it requires a deliberate move on the part of the passenger. You need to go to the purser's counter, ask for a form and sign it. I have no problem doing that, but it is obvious that Cunard expects most passengers to lack motivation to do so. Cunard could put a tick box in the booking form, or on the web-based Voyage Personalizer, providing a paragraph of text explaining the rationale for the auto-tip and asking every passenger for explicit agreement for the auto-tip to be charged to his/her account, i.e. replacing the opt-out by a (much more appropriate, but probably far less successful) opt-in.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Normandie_Nostalgic

[Margana]

 

You continue to resist understanding the crucial fact that the auto-gratuities are removable. The fact that they can be removed means that they are not "automatic".

 

It is becoming tiresome listening to people who, while professing to believe "decent living wages" should be paid and that the crew should not have to rely on tips, state that they remove the auto-gratuities without being asked for an explanation.

 

Cunard has struck agreement with their staff as to conditions of employment. Ihave sailed with Cunard, and will again, because I appreciate the level of service. I find it extraordinary that someone who presumably likes the service and then removes a portion of the compensation paid the providers of that service feels no obligation to, at the least, explain his rationale for removing such a significant portion of that compensation. Of course, it can be claimed to be a protest against what is seen as an unfair system of pay - but it is hard to justify such a protest which penalizes the supposed victims of the system rather than the perpetrator. If one does not like the system - sailing on a different line seems a more appropriate protest.

 

But please: try to understand what the adjective "removable" means when used in connection with the term "automatic payment".

 

 

Post 2 on this thread provided a copy of Cunard policy on tipping. My recent On Board Account statement from a Queen Elizabeth voyage has an entry under Description for “AUTO GRATUITY CHARGE”. This was made on the first night of the cruise, and was for the full amount (No. of days x Daily charge). So I have tipped in advance for services which I have not yet received, for a future unknown quality of performance. The fact that this amount may be altered or removed does not alter the fact that it was automatically added to my account. If it wasn’t automatically added, there would be no requirement for the permitted option to alter or remove it, because it would not have been applied (automatically). It would not exist on my account. Perhaps you should try to understand what the word automatic means in the context of Cunard tipping policy.

It is no less tiresome for others to continually and consistently explain that there is no requirement on Cunard ships to proffer an explanation should removal of the Auto-Gratuity be requested. Perhaps on your second Cunard cruise you may like to enquire at the Purser’s desk whether this is the case, since you seem to have difficulty believing this.

[balf]

Cunard could put a tick box in the booking form, or on the web-based Voyage Personalizer, providing a paragraph of text explaining the rationale for the auto-tip and asking every passenger for explicit agreement for the auto-tip to be charged to his/her account, i.e. replacing the opt-out by a (much more appropriate, but probably far less successful) opt-in.

 

As I have said previously: opt in rather than opt out. That's the way it works in resteraunts (in UK anyway) there is an option to add a gratuity to the bill. The tip isn't added automatically so requiring the customer to remove it.

 

All the posters here who tell us that they pay the auto tips and extra as well would obviously be happy to tick the box, so the total raised would be the same.

 

Any system that annoys as many people as this one does is a bad system, but I fear it isn't going to change because it works for Cunard, for the reasons discussed here.

 

David.

[ovccruiser]

If Cunard, and all other cruise lines I have sailed on, include the tip in their wages to their staff, who do you think will pay, certainly not Cunard, we, the customer will in increased fares. I personally do not find auto tips annoying, and I always leave them in place.

[BlueRiband]

There won't be an "all in" fare for paying the crew a "living wage" anytime soon. The listed price would be higher then many passengers would be willing to pay. If "all in" fares work well on SilverSea and Azamara those lines would have a wait list to sail.

 

A short time ago we had a thread which asked what three things would you change on QM2? One of the responses was, "Lower fares so I can sail more often!"

 

Somebody accustomed to waiting for a $699 transatlantic would stop sailing if the fare doubled to cover higher wages for the crew. Even at $699, those who sail on other lines complain that Cunard is sky high. (This is the general response on the newbie board whenever anybody inquires about going transatlantic.)

Edited May 24, 2015 by BlueRiband

[balf]

 

Somebody accustomed to waiting for a $699 transatlantic would stop sailing if the fare doubled to cover higher wages for the crew. Even at $699, those who sail on other lines complain that Cunard is sky high. (This is the general response on the newbie board whenever anybody inquires about going transatlantic.)

 

Which explaines why the overall Cunard experience is now little different from other lines that used to be well below them in service. And I'd bet that the $699 crossers are the first in the queue at the pursers.

 

I don't believe there are many who can't work out the difference between two prices, one with gratuities added and one without. The only losers would be the cruisers above who likely don't pay the tips and probably don't make much profit for Cunard anyway.

 

David.

[Margana]

There won't be an "all in" fare for paying the crew a "living wage" anytime soon. The listed price would be higher then many passengers would be willing to pay. If "all in" fares work well on SilverSea and Azamara those lines would have a wait list to sail.

 

A short time ago we had a thread which asked what three things would you change on QM2? One of the responses was, "Lower fares so I can sail more often!"

 

Somebody accustomed to waiting for a $699 transatlantic would stop sailing if the fare doubled to cover higher wages for the crew. Even at $699, those who sail on other lines complain that Cunard is sky high. (This is the general response on the newbie board whenever anybody inquires about going transatlantic.)

 

The auto-gratuity for an 8 night transatlantic would be $92. That's 13.2% of the $699 fare quoted, not double (100%). As has been said several times, the only difference is the $92 becomes a component in a wage and is not labelled a gratuity. The total amount is the same, and it's a unambiguous.

[navybankerteacher]

As I have said previously: opt in rather than opt out. That's the way it works in resteraunts (in UK anyway) there is an option to add a gratuity ...

Any system that annoys as many people as this one does is a bad system, but I fear it isn't going to change because it works for Cunard, for the reasons discussed here.

 

David.

 

Opt in or opt out --- wow, that is such a crucial dillemna. Of course it is unfair of Cunard to force their passengers to make a slight effort to remove a significant portion of the compensation paid to staff.

 

It is unfortunate that Cunard's system annoys some people --- but it does work for Cunard and it does work for the people who work for Cunard. Those who find it objectionable have the option to sail with lines whose policies please them.

[Margana]

Opt in or opt out --- wow, that is such a crucial dillemna. Of course it is unfair of Cunard to force their passengers to make a slight effort to remove a significant portion of the compensation paid to staff.

 

It is unfortunate that Cunard's system annoys some people --- but it does work for Cunard and it does work for the people who work for Cunard. Those who find it objectionable have the option to sail with lines whose policies please them.

 

Cunard does not force customers to do anything. It provides an option with regard to gratuities which customers may adopt. Perhaps those people who find this policy objectionable, and are critical of those who make that discretionary choice, would be better served on a cruise line with a less relaxed approach.

[Normandie_Nostalgic]

I wish that, for the sake of consistency, they allowed passengers to opt out of the 15% gratuity for drinks etc. too then.

[alc13]

Auto-tipping apparently helps crew members avoid increased income tax liability that would result from higher salaries. If that's so, then Cunard would have to adjust for it if they eliminated auto-tips and increased fares accordingly. Meaning, to ensure the same compensation to their crew they would have to cover any increased tax liability, too. That would mean higher fares than if they merely rolled auto-tips into the fares. (That's all assuming the tax theory is correct)

 

There is a sector of the population that wants the absolute lowest fare. Cunard wants to keep them as customers - hence the auto-tip and option to remove it. But to do less than they do now (an opt-in option, for instance; or no service charge on drinks) would mean less compensation to the crew, I fear. Otherwise they would lose customers.

 

I do take it on faith that the bean counters have devised a system that is fair to both their customers and employees. But everyone seems mostly happy on Cunard cruises, so maybe they've found a formula that works.

[balf]

 

It is unfortunate that Cunard's system annoys some people --- but it does work for Cunard and it does work for the people who work for Cunard. Those who find it objectionable have the option to sail with lines whose policies please them.

 

You seem to have missed out the customer.

 

David.

[balf]

 

. But everyone seems mostly happy on Cunard cruises, so maybe they've found a formula that works.

 

The happiest passengers and crew I have ever seen have been aboard a Saga ship. Saga includes gratuities in the price.

 

David.

[navybankerteacher]

The happiest passengers and crew I have ever seen have been aboard a Saga ship. Saga includes gratuities in the price.

 

David.

 

Then perhaps you should stick with Saga rather than be unhappy on Cunard - as implied in your 2:26 PM post.

[BlueRiband]

The auto-gratuity for an 8 night transatlantic would be $92. That's 13.2% of the $699 fare quoted, not double (100%). As has been said several times, the only difference is the $92 becomes a component in a wage and is not labelled a gratuity. The total amount is the same, and it's a unambiguous.

 

It wasn't just the gratuities but an increase in the overall salaries paid for a "living wage" that would cause fares to double. ("Living wage" being a popular term among social progressives in the US.)

 

So let's just take the tip math and make that $699 fare now $789. All some look it is the $6xx versus the $7xx. All things other things being equal the hot-deal minded passenger will go jump at the $6xx. I read a post where someone actually cancelled and rebooked to save....$20! Her logic? "That's two drinks!"

[Salacia]

Auto-tipping apparently helps crew members avoid increased income tax liability that would result from higher salaries. If that's so, then Cunard would have to adjust for it if they eliminated auto-tips and increased fares accordingly. Meaning, to ensure the same compensation to their crew they would have to cover any increased tax liability, too. That would mean higher fares than if they merely rolled auto-tips into the fares. (That's all assuming the tax theory is correct)

 

There is a sector of the population that wants the absolute lowest fare. Cunard wants to keep them as customers - hence the auto-tip and option to remove it. But to do less than they do now (an opt-in option, for instance; or no service charge on drinks) would mean less compensation to the crew, I fear. Otherwise they would lose customers.

 

I do take it on faith that the bean counters have devised a system that is fair to both their customers and employees. But everyone seems mostly happy on Cunard cruises, so maybe they've found a formula that works.

 

What country is it that does not require income tax be paid on gratuities?

Many of the staff are from the Philippines were tips are taxable (as is the case in the US and the UK and many other countries): Cash tips given directly to crew members is the individual crew members responsibility to report as income, unlike the auto tip income which is documented, reported and most likely necessitates a withholding tax by the employer. To me it seems that the auto tip in no way "helps crew members avoid increased income tax liability that would result from higher salaries" Can someone please tell me what country gratuities are not considered as income (and in the case of the auto tips, the amounts are well documented by the cruise line and can not be hidden or under-reported as might happen with cash tips).

Edited May 24, 2015 by Salacia

[Tampa Girl]

What country is it that does not require income tax be paid on gratuities?

Many of the staff are from the Philippines were tips are taxable (as is the case in the US and the UK and many other countries): Cash tips given directly to crew members is the individual crew members responsibility to report as income, unlike the auto tip income which is documented, reported and most likely necessitates a withholding tax by the employer. To me it seems that the auto tip in no way "helps crew members avoid increased income tax liability that would result from higher salaries" Can someone please tell me what country gratuities are not considered as income (and in the case of the auto tips, the amounts are well documented by the cruise line and can not be hidden or under-reported as might happen with cash tips).

 

 

Furthermore, Uncle Sam can tell when tips are grossly under-reported, because they have schedules for the "average" income and/or tips for certain self-reporting workers.

[alc13]

What country is it that does not require income tax be paid on gratuities?

 

From post #71 in this thread,

 

"Most of the tipped crew are not from Britain, but from all over the planet. Each one of the sometimes hundreds of nationalities represented in a ships crew has a different set of tax laws that apply to his or her earnings. In most of those countries, gratuities are not taxed, but earnings are. If passenger fares are increased to cover the gratuities, the total earnings of the service staff will all be taxable - in effect further reducing their salaries."

 

I based my post on that information. I'd be interested to know if it can be confirmed.

[BlueRiband]

...

I based my post on that information. I'd be interested to know if it can be confirmed.

 

It might take some internet research but I doubt that Brucemuzz would make it up. He's an industry insider who has managed ships for over 30 years. Much of what he posts involve his own anecdotal experience in dealing with passengers, crew, and shore side authorities. Not everybody likes his opinions but I value the insider information that he brings to these boards.

[ovccruiser]

Furthermore, Uncle Sam can tell when tips are grossly under-reported, because they have schedules for the "average" income and/or tips for certain self-reporting workers.

That assumes Uncle Sam is the taxman for the world. If the crew are Indonesian, Thai, Australian, Uk or any other country, taxable income would be paid in that country I would think, not to Uncle Sam :D After all, the Carnival Corp has many cruise lines, some of which pay in Stirling not dollars. P & O UK pay £, not sure about P & O Australia, may be in Aus $

Edited May 25, 2015 by ovccruiser

[Normandie_Nostalgic]

So let's just take the tip math and make that $699 fare now $789. All some look it is the $6xx versus the $7xx. All things other things being equal the hot-deal minded passenger will go jump at the $6xx.

 

Well, Cunard offers many promotions. In some of those, they throw in gratuities (or waive auto-gratuity, who knows exactly ?) To make a hot deal out of a $6xx that had become $7xx, all Cunard would have to do would be to do the same.