Carnival to Stop Offering Cruises to Nowhere - Starting in 2016

[bruadhin]

I don't know why this is all of a sudden a concern, it's not like the cruises go anywhere. As I recall we just disembarked the ship on our last one and didn't even go through customs.

 

The crew is technically violating the terms of their D-1 visas. Based on a quick glance at the State Department's website, they need a B-1 in order to be able to crew vessels on a CTN. Between the requirements of a B-1 visa and the mere effort required to get them for the entire crew, it isn't going to happen.

 

I'm no lawyer, but that is my understanding of the issue.

[falkcor]

Apparently, this is not something new. The Bimini Superfast filing mentions a 1993 bill in Congress to limit CTN's to US flag vessels. No way of knowing if there was a request for comment back then, and whether CBP made a rule change then, and it was not common knowledge, so that the Bimini case (20 years later) was the first denied under this rule. Though it does appear that CBP was selectively applying the rule, if it was created back then. The letter to RWB from CBP appears to cite current law, so there would appear to be some rule out there. I think that what triggered the CBP reaction was that the Bimini ship was going to be doing this regularly, not just occasionally like the major cruise lines do.

 

i agree with your assessment.

 

regardless, this does indeed look like it could be the 'silver bullet', as far as i can see... at least as far, as anything else i can see / found by searching is concerned. would you agree?

 

i do wonder exactly how it came to be, however, that this is now hitting the cruise industry on the whole, if so... i do not see any further movement than the items posted above.

[jimbo5544]

Great thread guys!

[figdu]

The crew is technically violating the terms of their D-1 visas. Based on a quick glance at the State Department's website, they need a B-1 in order to be able to crew vessels on a CTN. Between the requirements of a B-1 visa and the mere effort required to get them for the entire crew, it isn't going to happen.

 

I'm no lawyer, but that is my understanding of the issue.

 

I am not a lawyer either but I think this would also put them under rules of FLSA and that will cost the cruise lines lots of money.

[cruizinisthebest]

The crew is technically violating the terms of their D-1 visas. Based on a quick glance at the State Department's website, they need a B-1 in order to be able to crew vessels on a CTN. Between the requirements of a B-1 visa and the mere effort required to get them for the entire crew, it isn't going to happen.

 

I'm no lawyer, but that is my understanding of the issue.

 

Guess they have been violating it for a while.

 

Now who thought of it and thought to do something about it? And why does it matter to them. Not asking you to answer.....just thinking out loud.

[chengkp75]

i agree with your assessment.

 

regardless, this does indeed look like it could be the 'silver bullet', as far as i can see... at least as far, as anything else i can see / found by searching is concerned. would you agree?

 

i do wonder exactly how it came to be, however, that this is now hitting the cruise industry on the whole, if so... i do not see any further movement than the items posted above.

 

It may be that the appeals process is now complete, and the court has ruled that CBP must enforce the rule across the industry. Someone on one of the duplicate thread on the other forums says that the major cruise lines could apply for exemptions after the 2013 ruling. The final ruling may have required that the exemptions cease.

[sparks1093]

The crew is technically violating the terms of their D-1 visas. Based on a quick glance at the State Department's website, they need a B-1 in order to be able to crew vessels on a CTN. Between the requirements of a B-1 visa and the mere effort required to get them for the entire crew, it isn't going to happen.

 

I'm no lawyer, but that is my understanding of the issue.

 

Had I read the thread I would have seen that and I agree, if it's an issue of crewmember visas it makes perfect sense.

[bruadhin]

Guess they have been violating it for a while.

 

Now who thought of it and thought to do something about it? And why does it matter to them. Not asking you to answer.....just thinking out loud.

 

I don't mind answering. If you read the legal brief cited, Bimini Super Fast (or whatever it is) did it to themselves. They were good corporate citizens and were notifying CBP and port authorities of what they were doing every step of the way. At some point CBP said, "Hey, not so fast."

 

To figdu, not exactly. I'm not sure if FLSA would apply or not. One of the requirements of a B-1 visa is you cannot be compensated from a US source. Now I'm sure payroll technically comes from overseas, but what about tips/gratuities/service charges? Those are coming directly from the passengers, the cruise line is merely a pass through. I suppose that could be fixed, but what if a passenger gave a crewmember a cash tip? Again, they would be violating the B-1 Visa. Would CBP go looking for violations? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Finally, I doubt most of the crew could even qualify. Based on what my wife tells me, CBP doesn't trust the crew one bit. I don't see them issuing B-1 visas which would give them the ability to freely enter the US. I understand the crew is escorted any time off ship and especially to the airplane when leaving. To me, that isn't how you treat a trusted visitor.

 

Hopefully chengkp75 can give us more insight as to CBP's view of the crew and the procedures when they are off the ship in the US.

[chengkp75]

I don't mind answering. If you read the legal brief cited, Bimini Super Fast (or whatever it is) did it to themselves. They were good corporate citizens and were notifying CBP and port authorities of what they were doing every step of the way. At some point CBP said, "Hey, not so fast."

 

To figdu, not exactly. I'm not sure if FLSA would apply or not. One of the requirements of a B-1 visa is you cannot be compensated from a US source. Now I'm sure payroll technically comes from overseas, but what about tips/gratuities/service charges? Those are coming directly from the passengers, the cruise line is merely a pass through. I suppose that could be fixed, but what if a passenger gave a crewmember a cash tip? Again, they would be violating the B-1 Visa. Would CBP go looking for violations? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Finally, I doubt most of the crew could even qualify. Based on what my wife tells me, CBP doesn't trust the crew one bit. I don't see them issuing B-1 visas which would give them the ability to freely enter the US. I understand the crew is escorted any time off ship and especially to the airplane when leaving. To me, that isn't how you treat a trusted visitor.

 

Hopefully chengkp75 can give us more insight as to CBP's view of the crew and the procedures when they are off the ship in the US.

 

I know that the Non-Resident Alien Crew (NRAC) that NCL employ on the Pride of America require H1 work visas, so I'm not sure a B-1 visa would work for these crew. As far as FLSA, I don't believe that would apply either, as the ship is foreign flag. The NRAC's at NCL do get paid US wages, and must pay US taxes and Social Security, but that is on a US flag vessel.

 

Foreign crew with a D-1 crew visa are allowed shore leave in US ports, but the ship clears the crew manifest both inbound and outbound, and GOD help a ship that "loses" a crewmember. CBP could hold the ship until either the crewmember is returned to the ship, or a bond is posted. The company becomes liable for all costs to find the crewmember, keep him/her under guard until deportation can be arranged, etc. When a crewmember joins or leaves the ship, the ship must provide a list of those joiners/leavers to CBP, with their transportation out of the country, and CBP will monitor these crew to ensure they leave the country at the first possible time. If there is a delay in getting a crewmember repatriated, the company must either ensure the crew gets to the airport and remains within the security area, or place the crew in a hotel room with a bonded guard service.

[Babyrocko1908]

My Vista NYC 3-Nighter sailing is still showing on Carnival.com but my TA just told me Yes it will be cancelled. I guess I'm going to lose my Anthem 3-Nighter as well.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Babyrocko1908

[figdu]

Thank you both for doing the research.

[talkorpi]

So pissed about this news. I was booked on the 3 day on Liberty after her repositioning cruise. I'll be calling Carnival soon. I'll try to keep everyone posted about how the situation is going to be handled (if I can dig anything up).

 

What really pains me is that this was going to be a birthday cruise for my sister. :mad: :(

[Babyrocko1908]

Well scratch that. Yup, it's been cancelled. I just got Carnival's official letter from my TA.

[bruadhin]

Thank you chengkp75. I should have thought of the POA and there must be a way they handle it. Of course, I had assumed they were all Americans.

 

I know the riverboats that are home ported here have American crews.

[Theresa522]

My Vista NYC 3-Nighter sailing is still showing on Carnival.com but my TA just told me Yes it will be cancelled. I guess I'm going to lose my Anthem 3-Nighter as well.

Yes unfortunately we are losing both cruises :( Got the letter from Carnival this morning and I sure within a week I should be getting one from RCL. Sad so sad but what can you do.

[Theresa522]

So pissed about this news. I was booked on the 3 day on Liberty after her repositioning cruise. I'll be calling Carnival soon. I'll try to keep everyone posted about how the situation is going to be handled (if I can dig anything up).

 

What really pains me is that this was going to be a birthday cruise for my sister. :mad: :(

I feel your pain. The Anthem cruise fell on my dh and I 23rd wedding anniversary. It would have been the perfect way to celebrate. Even though I didn't get the official canceled letter yet I am sure it will be here soon.:(

[Retired_to_Cruise]

Guess they have been violating it for a while.

 

Now who thought of it and thought to do something about it? And why does it matter to them. Not asking you to answer.....just thinking out loud.

 

My guess is that it is the same two groups that drove the "Jones Act" many, many years ago - U.S Ship builders, and the longshore unions.

[talkorpi]

Just got off the phone with CCL. The woman that I talked to was extremely nice and apologetic, but she said that the change was so new that she couldn't even access the booking information anymore. I guess if you're booked on a CTN, watch your email. She said that they would be sending out multiple emails in the next few days. Everyone will be able to reschedule a cruise or get a refund, along with OBC for your next sailing. That's all they know at the moment.

[cruizinisthebest]

My guess is that it is the same two groups that drove the "Jones Act" many, many years ago - U.S Ship builders, and the longshore unions.

Makes sense.

Just got off the phone with CCL. The woman that I talked to was extremely nice and apologetic, but she said that the change was so new that she couldn't even access the booking information anymore. I guess if you're booked on a CTN, watch your email. She said that they would be sending out multiple emails in the next few days. Everyone will be able to reschedule a cruise or get a refund, along with OBC for your next sailing. That's all they know at the moment.

I've gotten one email and a call from my PVP, which I missed. I'll give him a call later.

 

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

[chengkp75]

My guess is that it is the same two groups that drove the "Jones Act" many, many years ago - U.S Ship builders, and the longshore unions.

 

Actually, I think it is CBP looking at violations of immigration and visa laws more than the PVSA. CBP fears that a ship like the Bimini Superfast could have foreign crew working in the US for extended periods, so long as the ship makes an occasional voyage outside territorial waters. As I've said, the foreign crew working on the US flag POA must have H-1 work visas, and this requires a lot more background check and fiscal responsibility on the part of the sponsor (cruise line), than either a B-1 work visa or a D-1 crew visa.

[chengkp75]

My guess is that it is the same two groups that drove the "Jones Act" many, many years ago - U.S Ship builders, and the longshore unions.

 

Not sure what the longshorman unions had to do with the Jones Act, as union labor is still used to unload all ships whether US or foreign flag.

[falkcor]

here's a quick list (from a third party site - this is by no means scientific or an absolute list) of cruise to nowhere itineraries leaving in 2016 that it can assumed will be cancelled as a result of this:

 

3/4/16 RCCL anthem of the seas 3 night cape liberty

3/18/16 carnival liberty 3 night galveston

4/8/16 carnival triumph 3 night new orleans

6/10/16 carnival sunshine 2 night norfolk

6/18/16 carnival sunshine 2 night new york

10/8/16 carnival sunshine 2 night new york

10/28/16 carnival sunshine 2 night norfolk

11/4/16 carnival vista 3 night new york

11/11/16 carnival sunshine 2 night charleston

12/9/16 carnival breeze 2 night galveston

 

it's too bad, carnival has just expanded its CTN offerings, for them to be summarily canceled. that's a lot of affected cruises!

[cruiser82]

I'm very sad to hear this as my mom and I were considering booking the Anthem CTN with RCCL.

[HouseRulz]

here's a quick list (from a third party site - this is by no means scientific or an absolute list) of cruise to nowhere itineraries leaving in 2016 that it can assumed will be cancelled as a result of this:

 

3/4/16 RCCL anthem of the seas 3 night cape liberty

3/18/16 carnival liberty 3 night galveston

4/8/16 carnival triumph 3 night new orleans

6/10/16 carnival sunshine 2 night norfolk

6/18/16 carnival sunshine 2 night new york

10/8/16 carnival sunshine 2 night new york

10/28/16 carnival sunshine 2 night norfolk

11/4/16 carnival vista 3 night new york

11/11/16 carnival sunshine 2 night charleston

12/9/16 carnival breeze 2 night galveston

 

it's too bad, carnival has just expanded its CTN offerings, for them to be summarily canceled. that's a lot of affected cruises!

 

What's interesting is that the cruise I have bolded is still available as the only Cruise to Nowhere in 2016.

[MaxGlycine]

My guess is that it is the same two groups that drove the "Jones Act" many, many years ago - U.S Ship builders, and the longshore unions.

 

You mean the ones protecting American jobs? I sure won't argue against their cause.

 

And now that I understand (perhaps) the reasoning behind the CTN ban, having to do with the crew effectively working in the USA without a work permit, rather than just "visiting" the USA as part of their job on outward-bound cruises, I don't have a problem with it at all.

 

The solutions are simple: If you want to run cruises between US cities without going to a foreign distant port, or if you want to offer "cruises to nowhere" from US cities, all you have to do is be a US-flagged vessel, and be subject to US labor (and other) laws. Just like the ships running cruises around the Hawaiian Islands. If you're a foreign-flagged vessel, and want to run CTNs, then your crew must be legally allowed to work in the USA.