Dawn princess Norovirus

[MMDown Under]

Excuse my ignorance, but are there toilets located near/in the main eating areas of cruise ships? Would it be possible to call past and do a proper wash immediately before sitting down to eat?

I have never been a fan of hand sanitisers and would much prefer a soap and water wash. I know it will likely be inevitable that we use them on the cruise though, but for my own peace of mind I would rather wash than rub.

Is there any proof that the alcohol based ones are not as effective? From what I read Benzalkonium Chloride is effective for bacteria, but not so much for viruses - i.e. Norovirus.

 

Yes, there are toilets near main eating areas. However, I try to just use the toilet in my cabin, as an extra precaution. When I use the public toilets, after washing my hands, I use the paper hand towel to open the outside door of the toilet.

[OzKiwiJJ]

to_dee, I've been using Hands First for over a year now and I think I've stayed healthier than usual, despite two cruises, one of which had a Noro outbreak. I don't use it extensively in day-to-day life, just when we're out and about and stop for a coffee or a meal. At home I just rely on washing my hands properly and regularly.

 

I've always hated alcohol based sanitisers as even minimal use of them left my hands really dry and uncomfortable. I've never had that problem with Hands First even when using it more than usual on a cruise.

 

So I'm happy to take my chances with a Benzalkonium Chloride based foam rather than an alcohol based sanitiser, combined with sensible hand washing routines.

[to_dee]

BUT please don't rely on what you read on the WEB!

It does not always tell the whole story or even the correct info.

 

Personally I'd rather talk directly to an expert like a chemist and be advised by their professionalism and knowledge

 

Fair call :)

 

to_dee, I've been using Hands First for over a year now and I think I've stayed healthier than usual, despite two cruises, one of which had a Noro outbreak. I don't use it extensively in day-to-day life, just when we're out and about and stop for a coffee or a meal. At home I just rely on washing my hands properly and regularly.

 

I've always hated alcohol based sanitisers as even minimal use of them left my hands really dry and uncomfortable. I've never had that problem with Hands First even when using it more than usual on a cruise.

 

So I'm happy to take my chances with a Benzalkonium Chloride based foam rather than an alcohol based sanitiser, combined with sensible hand washing routines.

 

Turns out hubby already ordered some LOL

[Geblues]

 

geblues ...do you have the brand of the natural hand san you use? That sounds interesting as well.

 

 

The all natural product is by Nature Direct .com.au it is an Australian Company but Swiss Ingenuity I think. I haven't looked it up for a long time. You get it concentrated and it is the EnviroMist. But again, it kills bacteria. I remember the lady saying that she even used it as a mouth spray as she had a sore throat, not something that was recommended but she thought that since it is all natural, it couldn't hurt. She found it really helpful. Handy for kids, especially littlies who suck their fingers, much better that the alcohol chemical types.

 

I'm taking my dettol hand foam for our cabin and try and use our bathroom the most (I could probably do with the run after all the food lol). and try and avoid the sanitise bay as I will use my own stuff, even still, they both dry my hands, so you put on moisturiser and that just defeats the purpose doesn't it. If people just washed their hands and we don't put things in our mouths, it would really help. I do have to wonder how much is carried by the staff and not cleaning things properly. :cool:

[OzKiwiJJ]

. If people just washed their hands and we don't put things in our mouths, it would really help.

 

You mean we can't eat? :eek::eek::eek:

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Sorry, couldn't resist that. ;) :D

[chengkp75]

If people just washed their hands and we don't put things in our mouths, it would really help. I do have to wonder how much is carried by the staff and not cleaning things properly. :cool:

 

One, I'm glad to see that someone understands that eating with your fingers is the surest way to become contaminated, more so than the frequently quoted "touching your face".

 

Two, I'm not familiar with Australian Public Health regulations, my training and experience being with ships that homeport in the US, which fall under the USPH Vessel Sanitation Program. I do know that in the absence of stricter local regulations, ships must follow WHO guidelines, much like they follow SOLAS for safety."

 

Anyway, if the crew were "carrying" noro, and continually re-infecting the ship, the outbreaks would be continuous, not one here and then a few cruises without, and then another outbreak. Public health officials also look to the trends of reported cases during the cruise to see how the outbreak started and how remediation measures are working. If a ship has multiple consecutive cruises with high reportable GI cases, but the number of reported cases tends to drop towards the end of the cruise, and then starts to build a day or two into the next cruise, this indicates that someone brought the virus onboard to reinfect the ship after remediation measures had the trend going down. If however, the number of cases remains high at the end of the cruise, and remains high immediately at the start of the next cruise, this indicates either poor remediation or significant crew infection.

 

As I've answered to another poster on this thread, but over on a different forum, unless you follow the crew around 24/7 and have full access to all areas of the ship, you cannot know whether they are following proper sanitation procedures or not. It was mentioned on that thread that the tables were being wiped down with a wet rag, that wasn't put in the bucket between tables. Ashore, this bucket probably contains a soap solution, so all it is doing is loosening the virus, and then of course it needs to go back to the bucket to remove the virus from the rag. On a ship, the bucket normally will contain a 100ppm bleach solution, which with a contact time of a few seconds will actually kill the virus, so the rag does not need to go back to the bucket to dispose of the virus. And the buckets are checked every 4 hours to ensure that the bleach concentration is still acceptable.

 

Remember, the ship is the crew's home. If it becomes infected, they have to live there, they can't go home after a week, so it is in their best interest to follow proper sanitation procedures.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Thanks, chengkp75, for some very useful information.

 

I found it very interesting, on our Sun Princess cruise last Christmas, hearing how many Noro cases there were, especially after the deep cleansing at Suva midway though the cruise. Numbers dropped, then rose again a couple of days before we arrived back in Sydney.

[chengkp75]

Thanks, chengkp75, for some very useful information.

 

I found it very interesting, on our Sun Princess cruise last Christmas, hearing how many Noro cases there were, especially after the deep cleansing at Suva midway though the cruise. Numbers dropped, then rose again a couple of days before we arrived back in Sydney.

 

That's one of the nasty features of noro. You can be symptom free after being sick, and still be sloughing virus for several days. And then that person can reinfect an area immediately after a deep cleaning, and it will take a couple days for new cases to present. A deep clean only really works when there is a change of people onboard at the same time as the deep clean (turn around day), or the remaining people follow the basic hygiene rules (you can mandate the crew to do this, but not the passengers).

[bearone]

Re the 45 degree tilt, that was what I thought we were told but I am sure you are right in that it was not that severe a tilt but none the less very frightening and has been talked about often on board since ! Others were told at a talk by a senior officer that it was an over correction to get the ship out of some sort of current.

I was told by staff last night that the whole ship was being cleaned/fumigated after all passengers including back to back passengers were disembarked. It will be a serious clean and all staff will be helping out. They also said active precautions will remain in place for a number of days into the new cruise as some current passengers are remaining on for the next cruise. There also seems to be many passengers developing coughs etc. I guess the drop in temperature from balmy Lombok and length of the cruise are partially to blame ?

[bubbles2014]

"On a ship, the bucket normally will contain a 100ppm bleach solution, which with a contact time of a few seconds will actually kill the virus, so the rag does not need to go back to the bucket to dispose of the virus. And the buckets are checked every 4 hours to ensure that the bleach concentration is still acceptable."

 

 

chengkp75

you have made me feel a little better with this explanation

thank you :)

[Russell21]

According to my GP hand washing with soap will kill viruses, apparently it explodes them (his words). Also the Norovirus sufferer is still a carrier for up to 2 weeks after symptoms cease.

[OzKiwiJJ]

According to my GP hand washing with soap will kill viruses, apparently it explodes them (his words).

 

Oh dear! Now, every time I wash my hands I'm going to have a mental picture of exploding viruses. :eek: :D

 

Also the Norovirus sufferer is still a carrier for up to 2 weeks after symptoms cease.

 

That's something that isn't widely known, I believe. Most people would assume that when the symptoms cease they are no longer infectious. No wonder this virus spreads so virulently. :eek:

[chengkp75]

According to my GP hand washing with soap will kill viruses, apparently it explodes them (his words). Also the Norovirus sufferer is still a carrier for up to 2 weeks after symptoms cease.

 

I would look for a new GP. Soap is a lubricant, not a disinfectant or sanitizing agent. Soap breaks the surface tension between the outermost layer of skin cells (the dead ones) that have the virus on them, and the next layer underneath. The scrubbing action of washing the hands then breaks these loosened skin cells from the hand, and the rinsing sends the skin cells and the virus down the drain. Anti-bacterial soaps will have an anti-bacterial agent in them, that given sufficient contact time will kill bacteria left behind from the soap freed skin cells. No soap out there, and very few sanitizing agents in general will kill viruses, at least in the contact time of hand washing.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Spoilsport. :D

 

I much preferred the image of exploding viruses. ;)

[chengkp75]

Spoilsport. :D

 

I much preferred the image of exploding viruses. ;)

 

Substitute the image of the "Scrubbing Bubbles" (not sure if you have that in Oz), kicking viruses around. :p

[OzKiwiJJ]

Substitute the image of the "Scrubbing Bubbles" (not sure if you have that in Oz), kicking viruses around. :p

 

No, don't think we have that here.

 

But exploding viruses still wins in my mind ;)

[Blue Elephant]

I was taught at uni that the vigorous friction of rubbing your hands together as you wash them kills viruses.

[chengkp75]

I was taught at uni that the vigorous friction of rubbing your hands together as you wash them kills viruses.

 

Really? What mechanism of friction kills the virus? Heat? Grinding of particles together to break up the virus? Not being snarky, I would just like to know what it was that they taught. All the public health services in the US state that the hand friction only loosens the viruses.

[Newby58]

I believe the single most important thing a person can do to prevent infection and the spread of Norovirus is hand hygiene. This, according to the chain of infection breaks the cycle before the portal of entry, being orally. Hand hygiene can include washing of hands for one minute with soap and water as recommended by The WHO or by using alcohol hand rubs, which takes about 30 seconds. Used repeatedly, both these methods can reduce the lipids in the skin of the hands causing dryness, skin irritation and damage. Alcohol hand rubs are useful when soap and water is not within reach and as stated takes less time when frequent hand hygiene is required. There are various alcohol rubs that also contain a moisturizer. As for sanitizing the ship, this method tries to break the chain of infection by removing the viral reservoir being door handles, elevator buttons etc.

BTW, I believe that hand washing removes micro organisms by friction (sloughing) where alcohol hand rubs kill micro organisms.

[Kinkacruiser]

Other preventatives:

 

It's a good idea to use cutlery, not your hands when eating.

 

Use the tongs - people who finger the fruit, etc. before selecting are not being considerate to shipmates.

 

(Touch wood, I've never been sick yet.)

[Russell21]

I still prefer the statement by my GP.

[Illyria]

According to my GP hand washing with soap will kill viruses, apparently it explodes them (his words).

I'm not even going to touch this one...

Also the Norovirus sufferer is still a carrier for up to 2 weeks after symptoms cease.

Noro sufferer sheds virus for 3-4 days after symptoms cease, not 2 weeks.

[BruceMuzz]

We were on voyager straight after an outbreak. We learnt on that cruise to sanitise our hands at all times.

 

Rhapsody we had no issues with this but others were laughing at me when I told my son he must "washy washy" prior to entering the buffet. [emoji35]

 

It takes less than 20 seconds to sanitise your hands which is a lot better than everyone getting sick.

 

You might want to use Google to learn a bit more about hand sanitizers and viruses.

It's free of charge.

 

Most hand sanitizers do NOT kill viruses.

The few sanitizers that actually do kill viruses are extremely expensive and not very effective.

You need to read the fine print on the virus killing claims.

 

In this business, there is a very important concept called "Dwell Time"

Dwell time is the amount of time a sanitizer must remain wet and active on your skin in order to kill the virus spores.

With most hand sanitizers that actually do kill viruses, the required dwell time is several minutes.

How many people put the sanitizer on their hands and have it remain in a liquid state for several minutes?? The answer is - None.

The high alcohol content of the sanitizing gel causes it to evaporate in less than a minute. That renders it useless against virus spores.

 

Why don't cruise lines more strongly enforce the use of hand sanitizers?

1. They are expensive.

2. They don't really work.

3. Studies suggest that heavy use of hand sanitizers reduces handwashing, thereby increasing Viral outbreaks.

[Newby58]

Other preventatives:

 

 

 

It's a good idea to use cutlery, not your hands when eating.

 

 

 

Use the tongs - people who finger the fruit, etc. before selecting are not being considerate to shipmates.

 

 

 

(Touch wood, I've never been sick yet.)

 

 

Unfortunately, if food is contaminated by crew or pax one can still be infected. Therefore, EVERYONE needs to practice frequent hand and respiratory hygiene.

[chengkp75]

Unfortunately, if food is contaminated by crew or pax one can still be infected. Therefore, EVERYONE needs to practice frequent hand and respiratory hygiene.

 

And, again, without knowing Australian Public Health regulations, but if they are similar to the USPH, the crew is trained in good hygiene, and it is in their best interest to maintain that hygiene because an outbreak causes them to get sick, have more work to do, and affects everyone living in their "home" not their vacation spot like a passenger.