Diving age discrimination

[smokinmike]

Once again, the OP's issue with the age restriction regarding his(her) dive excursion in Bonaire highlights two issues for me:

 

1. The age restriction is one of the very many reasons why certified scuba divers should be leery of dive excursions offered by cruise ship lines - issues of which most experienced divers are aware.

 

2. The age restriction for scuba diving is primarily for those dive operations that cater to cruise ship lines and is NOT the standard for Bonaire, Cozumel or any other dive-centric locales.

 

If a cruise itinerary has promising dive sites, my dive buddy (that would be my wife) and I take our own equipment and make plans pre-cruise to use alternate dive ops. With the information and communication available today, there is no reason for anyone to settle for what a cruise line has to offer. If port times dictate that using a cruise excursion is the only option, we don't dive. It's that simple. For those who seem to think age equals safety, I would suggest going along on a dive boat in Bonaire or a Cozumel fast boat - I think you would be surprised at the number of 65+ YO folks who are enjoying themselves safely and with expertise.

 

The age restriction imposed by cruise ship companies on their scuba diving excursion participants and partners has less to do with the certifications, skill, and experience of scuba divers and more to do with protecting cruise ship lines from financial exposure.

 

. . . and FWIW, if one goes to the Dive Friends of Bonaire website, there is no mention ANYWHERE of an upper age restriction. This restriction is only in effect when this dive op services cruise ships.

 

I hope this helps in correcting some misperceptions.

Edited January 5, 2016 by smokinmike

[Culbles]

I am sorry but this is incorrect. When cruising out of Australia and New Zealand on HAL the drinking age is 18.

When cruising out of Fort Lauderdale or the USA the HAL explains that they follow USA law and will not allow minors to consume alcohol.

[Culbles]

On a related issue, on a recent cruise I was required to sign a release not on the ship but in the boat on the way to our snorkel site. This was in Roatan. The release stated that I was in good health and the tour operator would not be responsible for any injuries that may occur during the tour. I found it amazing how quickly everyone signed the releases without any discussions except for me. Though this may not be unusual there was no mention in the shore excursion description that this would be required.

 

I asked the tour guide what if I failed to sign the release. He stated I would not be allowed in the water. After the tour I reported this to the Shore Excursion personnel on the ship.

Scuba diving is the same way only worse. We have to sign a medical waiver and if we list anything we are refused the dive or must have a doctor's release. Then we also have to sign a responsibility waiver exempting the dive operation from everything including "gross negligence". If they run off and leave us in the water, they are not responsible for gross negligence.

[dakrewser]

I hope this helps in correcting some misperceptions.

 

 

What "misperceptions" were they? Any vendor can impose a weight, height, age, etc. restriction any time they choose. No misperception there.

[Culbles]

I just wanted to report that Holland America Line and Dive Friends Bonaire partner to participate in age discrimination for scuba divers. I took my wife and grandson an a 10 day cruise from Ft. Lauderdale, FL through the Antilles to Bonaire, Curacao, and Aruba and back to Ft. Lauderdale. The cruise went well and we did have fun but in Bonaire, Holland America is partnered with Dive Friends Bonaire and they refused to let me scuba dive because I am over 65. I am a Master Diver with hundreds of dives in many environments and have been diving for over 20 years. I am in good health and physical shape and have no physical or medical problems and take no medications. At the dive shop we did not get to examine my medical conditions because once they saw my age that was the end of the trip. I could not dive because I am over 65 with no other consideration, just age. That equates to "age discrimination". Had we known this prior to booking we would have booked with a different cruise line and dive shop. Bonaire itself does not have an age limit on scuba diving but Dive Friends Bonaire when partnered with Holland America Line does.

 

Beware

The Oxford dictionary defines discrimination as: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age:

[Culbles]

What "misperceptions" were they? Any vendor can impose a weight, height, age, etc. restriction any time they choose. No misperception there.

Public businesses do not have cart blanch to post illegal rules and this has been upheld many times in the courts. Restaurants can post "no shoes, no shirt, no service" but they can't post "no Blacks" or "no Muslims".

 

Oxford dictionary defines discrimination as: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age:

[Culbles]

Thanks Host Walt for posting that guidelines reminder. It is sad that you have to do this occasionally but I guess that’s the way things are. I would guess that 90% of the Cruise Critic posters are helpful and courteous. We are fortunate that some of our posters are seasoned cruisers and are quite pleased to share their knowledge and experiences. I’ve asked some questions on this board and received very good responses. Only once did it get a disrespectful reply. And yes, I think I remember being a little brash once or twice myself, but not very often. I’ve misspelled words occasionally and have been courteously corrected (most of the time). So I’m going to just enjoy the board and learn all I can. I think the theme of this thread was being too old to dive. Well, I was a scuba diver, and now I am too old to safely do it, so I don’t. But I can still snorkel at Half Moon Cay.

Unfortunately I got carried away with all of the negative feedback and I started firing my shots also. Sorry for getting carried away with non subject issues. I just want to point out for future HAL travelers that HAL does discriminate based solely on age. The Oxford dictionary defines discrimination as: make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age:

[Culbles]

You are correct but my point was that HAL or any other cruise lines should tell you in the tour description that you may be required to sign a waiver. I have snorkeled many times in all parts of the world and only had to sign a waiver while on the tour boat twice; once in Roatan the other in Belize.

 

I may be wrong but I thought I read on the cruise critic that HAL tours are more expensive than private tours in part to pay for cost of insurance.

To clarify a point here: the age limit was printed on the excursion tickets. When we picked up the excursion package and examined the tickets is when I noticed it. We were already at sea and all I could do was go to the excursion desk and cancel the dive. At that point all I could do was wait and see and hope for the best. Whether it was posted or not does not change the fact that HAL and the dive shop discriminated based solely on age.

[iancal]

I would assume that it is a restriction placed on them by their insurance carrier.

[smokinmike]

What "misperceptions" were they? Any vendor can impose a weight, height, age, etc. restriction any time they choose. No misperception there.

 

Misperceptions on the part of non-divers regarding upper age restrictions on certified scuba divers by dive operators. I thought that was clear in my post. If not, I apologize.

[Culbles]

I would assume that it is a restriction placed on them by their insurance carrier.

I dove in Grand Turks and Aruba with HAL ship sponsored scuba diving excursions with no age limits. If I were not with HAL I could have dove with the dive shop. Bonaire in general has no age limit for diving. And for insurance: I have my own normal insurance plus I carry DAN (Diver's Alert Network) insurance to cover any dive emergencies.

[Boytjie]

OP hit upon one of the very many reasons why divers should be very reluctant to use cruise line dive excursions. I take my own gear and make my own plans. With the information and communication available today, there's no reason to settle for what a ship has to offer.

 

. . . and those of you preaching "safety", get on one of the boats of the other dive ops on Bonaire - you'll see plenty of folks over 65. This age requirement has nothing to with certification, skill or ability and everything to do with limiting the financial exposure of cruise lines.

 

Old man rant over.

 

I have booked scuba excursions through cruise lines and independently and I have seen good and not so good with either. I am happy to continue to do so and I do my research and determine which would be better for me.

[Boytjie]

I am sorry if it offends you that I see HAL discriminating against age. It totally surprises me. The ship was full of elderly cruisers. Myself included. I saw wheel chairs, canes, and scooters in use on ship during the trip. I saw physically handicapped people boarding and departing from tenders that should not have been allowed to do so because of the physical limitations and danger. My subject was about being denied service based solely on age, not medical or physical, just age. Something you should be aware of.

 

Since the ship was full of so many old people, how exactly is HAL discriminating based on age? :confused:

[smokinmike]

I have booked scuba excursions through cruise lines and independently and I have seen good and not so good with either. I am happy to continue to do so and I do my research and determine which would be better for me.

 

I'm very glad that you have been fortunate in finding acceptable dive ops through a cruise line. People have different experiences. I'll stick with my system - it works best for me.

[NMLady]

It is probably an age limit given by the tour's liability insurance company. Blame them.

Edited January 5, 2016 by NMLady

[hrhdhd]

Nonsense. If you read that the age limit was 65, knew you were over 65 - why would you try to book??

 

Either the OP didn't bother to read the description, or did and planned to wave his credentials around in the hope of getting a waiver from the restriction. In neither case is there any form of discrimination. In neither case does any fault attach to anyone other than the OP.

 

This is not my argument. I am merely pointing out that the booking system shouldn't have allowed the booking in the first place. Seems like that IT guy who can't spell can't program either.

[KirkNC]

If you are truly a DM then you understand that NO dive certifying agency has an upper age restriction. You also should know that EVERY dive shop has medical/physical waiver forms for participants to fill out and sign prior to being allowed to dive. We didn't even get to the medical/physical forms, just AGE.

 

Yes I am truly, would you like to see my C card ? :rolleyes:

 

I know that every dive shop has the option to set whatever rules it wants. Yes you fill out a waiver but apparently some also feel that age is a factor. Having been on some north of 100 dives as a DM I get their point. It is a means to weed out folks with higher potential for problems. I one time had to pull a 70 year old back on to the boat as he was having heart problems. Luckily he turned out to be all right but he initially had stopped breathing. So, I get why they may want to minimize their risk.

[cruz chic]

This is not my argument. I am merely pointing out that the booking system shouldn't have allowed the booking in the first place. Seems like that IT guy who can't spell can't program either.

 

Why does a booking system have to catch it? The op also admitted it was printed on their ticket but hoped for the best :rolleyes:. Why is there never any personal responsibility for some?

[kazu]

This is not my argument. I am merely pointing out that the booking system shouldn't have allowed the booking in the first place. Seems like that IT guy who can't spell can't program either.

 

how is the booking system going to catch it in reality? You don't have to fill out the docs (registration) until close to cruise time. You can book tours well before this. But, I suspect that you are right that the same IT guy that can't spell set it up :)

 

Why does a booking system have to catch it? The op also admitted it was printed on their ticket but hoped for the best :rolleyes:. Why is there never any personal responsibility for some?

 

agree - It is everyone's responsibility to check out their tours, whether they be ships' tours, private tours or diy.

[hrhdhd]

Why does a booking system have to catch it? The op also admitted it was printed on their ticket but hoped for the best :rolleyes:. Why is there never any personal responsibility for some?

 

But why shouldn't the booking system catch it? :confused:

 

I get it: the OP saw, didn't see, misread, deliberately ignored, second-guessed, whatever, the age restrictions. And he didn't dive.

 

But there's no reason he should have been allowed to book in the first place.

[Boytjie]

This is not my argument. I am merely pointing out that the booking system shouldn't have allowed the booking in the first place. Seems like that IT guy who can't spell can't program either.

 

Lay off the IT guys, 'mkay! The people booking excursions apparently can't read. :D ;) :( :eek:

[hrhdhd]

how is the booking system going to catch it in reality? You don't have to fill out the docs (registration) until close to cruise time. You can book tours well before this. But, I suspect that you are right that the same IT guy that can't spell set it up :)

 

One's date of birth is captured at booking, not when filling out the pre-cruise stuff.

[Boytjie]

You also should know that EVERY dive shop has medical/physical waiver forms for participants to fill out and sign prior to being allowed to dive. We didn't even get to the medical/physical forms, just AGE.

 

At times I have filled in the paperwork at the dive shop or while waiting for the bus pick up and other times I have filled it in on the ship.

 

One time I had an issue with a scuba excursion on HAL when they had an issue with the info I had on put on my forms and were reluctant to accept me doctor's note (who also happens to be a scuba diver). It was all sorted out.

[cruz chic]

But why shouldn't the booking system catch it? :confused:

 

I get it: the OP saw, didn't see, misread, deliberately ignored, second-guessed, whatever, the age restrictions. And he didn't dive.

 

But there's no reason he should have been allowed to book in the first place.

 

It's well known that Hal hasn't got the best systems. One 2 minute visit to their website is proof of that. Should airlines have a system in place to catch people that don't have a passport? I guess I'm one that does take responsibility for my choices and the fallout from that. The op wants to warn others and that's great but I don't think it takes 20 posts saying tge same thing to do that.

[Boytjie]

But why shouldn't the booking system catch it? :confused:

 

I get it: the OP saw, didn't see, misread, deliberately ignored, second-guessed, whatever, the age restrictions. And he didn't dive.

 

But there's no reason he should have been allowed to book in the first place.

 

Isn't the saying "buyer beware"? :)