Time to Get Rid of Self Service Food?

[Newby58]

Also a major factor is the state of your immune system and gut bacteria balance.

 

 

Yes. Look up the "chain of infection" which includes a susceptible host. It will help you prevent Noro infection.

 

 

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[Newby58]

Only bleach or chlorine will kill Noro which is a group of viruses. Neither of which are permitted on any RCI ship. The debate about meticulous hand washing versus alcohol hand rubs like Purcell is simply that the friction of hand hygiene sloughs the virus from hands. Washing with soap and water is superior to alcohol hand rubs. However, alcohol hand rubs can be used in many places where there is no wash basin.

[Codster]

Every time I hear of one of these outbreaks I think if only people would wash their hands and use the sanitiser provided. It would help minimise the chances. I have on several occasions "prompted" people whilst standing in a queue to enter a dining facility to use the sanitiser :(

[sun-set]

Every time I hear of one of these outbreaks I think if only people would wash their hands and use the sanitiser provided. It would help minimise the chances. I have on several occasions "prompted" people whilst standing in a queue to enter a dining facility to use the sanitiser :(

 

As the sanitizer does not help with the noro virus it can lead to people relying on it!! instead of other precautions such as washing hands properly immediately before eating and then not touching the food with your hands.:)

[The_Big_M]

What are the statistics of one dirty passenger being sick and spreading the virus to hundreds of people who may not cross paths with or go to the same location as the sick passenger.

 

The statistics all point to it being crew members as the main culprits for such outbreaks on the balance of probabilities.

 

I haven't seen any 'statistics' to support your assertion.

 

Just based on the scenario you describe, how is that any more likely than a sick passenger touching the handrail then pressing a lift button and leaving a virus there? And how many people would subsequently come into contact with that?

 

I don't see any greater individual likelihood of all passengers meeting a single sick server (How many servers in different dining rooms are on the ship? I don't even go to all the eateries on any cruise, let alone see, let alone be served by any individual server) than another passenger. Both come down to chance, but there are certainly lifts that people use frequently e.g. multiple times a day that could pass it on from another passenger, so I don't see any basis for your assertion that "a staff member is the main culprit."

[The_Big_M]

Hope you never meet up with sutho or karate man :D

 

Good one!

[Brisbane41]

I haven't seen any 'statistics' to support your assertion.

 

Just based on the scenario you describe, how is that any more likely than a sick passenger touching the handrail then pressing a lift button and leaving a virus there? And how many people would subsequently come into contact with that?

 

I don't see any greater individual likelihood of all passengers meeting a single sick server (How many servers in different dining rooms are on the ship? I don't even go to all the eateries on any cruise, let alone see, let alone be served by any individual server) than another passenger. Both come down to chance, but there are certainly lifts that people use frequently e.g. multiple times a day that could pass it on from another passenger, so I don't see any basis for your assertion that "a staff member is the main culprit."

 

If we take the virus on the lift button on handrails which is quite possible then it is usually confined to one area of the ship. Passengers in aft or aft-mid cabins would not use the forward lifts and vice versa so therefore cruise lines would see a pattern.

 

While it is possible passengers can spread the virus. How is it when one lot of passengers leave an infected ship and a fresh new amount of passengers join an infected ship that new passengers contract the virus. It is either from a crew member or poor cleaning standards.

 

I personally take dettol anti bacterial wipes and clean every surface of the cabin including tv remote, drawer handles and coat hangers.

 

As I have noticed in the past there is evidence the gel dispensers on cruise ships do not help and can cause a resistant strain of the virus to fight through. Therefore it is not helpful for other passengers to take it upon themselves to tell others how to clean. People doing that are never in the full picture and often do not see the ritualistic cleaning that takes place before they leave their cabin for the restaurant. I can make it from cabin to restaurant without my hands brushing up against or touching anything on the way. Besides it is quite anti-social and very obnoxious for a passenger to take it upon themselves to dictate the rules or what they think are social norms to others. I did not like that comment from the person who said they do that.

[lagoon380]

If some one is sick, crew or passenger, everything they touch could be contaminated, now someone else touches that spot and they also become a source of contamination with everything they touch and so on and so on, now can you see how on a cruise ship this can get out of control very quickly.

The only way to avoid getting sick is your own personal hygiene.

[The_Big_M]

If we take the virus on the lift button on handrails which is quite possible then it is usually confined to one area of the ship. Passengers in aft or aft-mid cabins would not use the forward lifts and vice versa so therefore cruise lines would see a pattern.

 

You're massively discounting how easily things can spread.

 

Also, I don't 'have statistics' but every cruise I've been on, I've used both sets of stairs and lifts as appropriate, usually each day. I'm sure there'd be enough vectors that use both sets that transmission between wouldn't be a problem so you could not make any assessment like the above.

 

While it is possible passengers can spread the virus. How is it when one lot of passengers leave an infected ship and a fresh new amount of passengers join an infected ship that new passengers contract the virus. It is either from a crew member or poor cleaning standards.

 

While it can be 'poor cleaning standards', it can also be the same way it hit the ship - and other land based venues - the first time. A new carrier onboard.

 

However, unless you're perfect (?) the reality is mistakes happen. It doesn't mean the standard is poor, but exceptions occur. e.g. staff member wiping down bench/handrail gets interrupted by passenger asking question, and restarts missing one area by 3 cm. And maybe that exception could just be where a virus lurks. That's why exercising your own cleanliness is important instead of just relying on and blaming others.

 

As I have noticed in the past there is evidence the gel dispensers on cruise ships do not help and can cause a resistant strain of the virus to fight through.

 

That would be because they're anti-bacterial, not anti-virus...

[Brisbane41]

You're massively discounting how easily things can spread.

 

Also, I don't 'have statistics' but every cruise I've been on, I've used both sets of stairs and lifts as appropriate, usually each day. I'm sure there'd be enough vectors that use both sets that transmission between wouldn't be a problem so you could not make any assessment like the above.

 

 

 

While it can be 'poor cleaning standards', it can also be the same way it hit the ship - and other land based venues - the first time. A new carrier onboard.

 

However, unless you're perfect (?) the reality is mistakes happen. It doesn't mean the standard is poor, but exceptions occur. e.g. staff member wiping down bench/handrail gets interrupted by passenger asking question, and restarts missing one area by 3 cm. And maybe that exception could just be where a virus lurks. That's why exercising your own cleanliness is important instead of just relying on and blaming others.

 

 

 

That would be because they're anti-bacterial, not anti-virus...

 

As much as I like cruising. I need to question you on this considering it is a likely scenario. Do you like it when the cruise lines minimise their responsibility and always blame it on a "dirty filthy passenger". They have never said "passenger or crew member"

 

I also want to ask you as a passenger how do you like being tied with the same brush and considered by the cruise line to be "dirty".

 

I just say this in the perspective of fairness. I have been on ships where an outbreak has occurred and did notice poor crew standards on ships where outbreaks occurred.

 

Unlike our fellow poster above who would seek to chastise another passenger for poor standards, I once called the medical centre when I witnessed a fellow passenger vomiting who was on a ship that had a outbreak. That person was promptly found and confined to their cabin.

[The_Big_M]

As much as I like cruising. I need to question you on this considering it is a likely scenario. Do you like it when the cruise lines minimise their responsibility and always blame it on a "dirty filthy passenger". They have never said "passenger or crew member"

 

If that's the question, I'm not hung up on those semantics.

 

However, I'm sure they have less tolerance for mistakes amongst their crew than on passengers - and that there are more controls on crew than there are on passengers. So I don't see it as "minimising their responsibility." Your statement implies that they don't put any or much effort into cleanliness procedures for their staff and only for their passengers.

 

Do you really think they believe cure is better than prevention i.e. that crew have to help out with extra cleaning procedures, and extra waste after the event, rather than being more responsible upfront? Plus the bad ratings that outbreaks cause with the CDC - and publicity? Oh, and at an individual crew member level, losing their job (that you've claimed they are 'desperate for' due to its generosity previously) due to being the first one off sick with norovirus and hence being culpable in not following company cleanliness procedures?

 

If so, you're not realistic.

[happysnapper]

When passengers report their sickness it would be helpful for them to be given a questionnaire on their activities, eg which food outlets they used, shore excursions taken, public areas used. Then this info could be compared to see if there is a link

 

Pick up a gastric bug on a South Pacific cruise while on Sun Princess a few years ago and I received a very detailed questionnaire. It covered all the meals I had eaten, and where, over the previous 3 days including while on shore. As a nurse I was observant of their infection control protocols and was very impressed. Could not fault the procedure of the medical, cleaning and catering staff. Well done Princess.

Edited February 8, 2016 by happysnapper

[Brisbane41]

If that's the question, I'm not hung up on those semantics.

 

However, I'm sure they have less tolerance for mistakes amongst their crew than on passengers - and that there are more controls on crew than there are on passengers. So I don't see it as "minimising their responsibility." Your statement implies that they don't put any or much effort into cleanliness procedures for their staff and only for their passengers.

 

Do you really think they believe cure is better than prevention i.e. that crew have to help out with extra cleaning procedures, and extra waste after the event, rather than being more responsible upfront? Plus the bad ratings that outbreaks cause with the CDC - and publicity? Oh, and at an individual crew member level, losing their job (that you've claimed they are 'desperate for' due to its generosity previously) due to being the first one off sick with norovirus and hence being culpable in not following company cleanliness procedures?

 

If so, you're not realistic.

 

No offence to anyone but my personal thoughts are cruise lines "always" blame a passenger. I don't think that is right at all.

 

Basically that equates to putting forward a philosophy that it is entirely possible to pick up by hand a piece of excrement by the clean end.

 

Admitting they have an outbreak is enough. They don't have to go one step further and blame it on a passenger. For all we know it could have been a crew member.

[The_Big_M]

No offence to anyone but my personal thoughts are cruise lines "always" blame a passenger. I don't think that is right at all.

 

 

I may have missed it. Can you post where they blamed a passenger this time?

[happysnapper]

I may have missed it. Can you post where they blamed a passenger this time?

 

I must have missed that as well. Personally I have never heard or read of any cruise companies pointing the finger at a particular group of people nor a particular source...which would be almost impossible to trace.

[Kiwi Kruzer]

I think he fails to realise that the food handling staff would be amongst the most highly trained on the ship....espec with food hygeine . They would also have Supervisors watching over them .

 

 

[wishfulone]

I think he fails to realise that the food handling staff would be amongst the most highly trained on the ship....espec with food hygeine . They would also have Supervisors watching over them .

 

I agree that the crew would have stricter controls than anyone else on board. Especially the kitchen staff and food handling crew members. After all, they're responsible for the welfare of the entire ship - passengers and crew.

 

However, the crew member supervising the hand sanitiser at entry points sometimes need to be more vigilant.

[Fredette]

P&O Australia don't have Buffet now, but call it the 'Pantry.' Not seen it but could be like your shopping centre food hall, you go order at the relevant outlet. Is that what happens on P&O Australia? . How are the queues/congestion on there? Perhaps other cruise lines might look at it.

 

It is awful (in my opinion). Instead of helping yourself to a little spoonful of this and a little spoonful of that - you go to a station, often wait in a line (although the pantry is very unpopular, so not only are the lines not long, but it is VERY easy getting a seat as opposed to the old buffet) and you ask for something and they dish you out a big bowlful. So if you don't like it, there is a lot of wastage, and if you eat it, then you are too full to try anything else. That was my favourite part about the buffet, not pigging out, but being able to sample lots of different things.

 

The other downside, is that a lot of people who would have previously gone to the buffet are now abandoning it and heading to the dining room. That means long queues for your table, and (will probably get flamed for saying this) kids running around unchecked because they are bored with a sit down restaurant and it is too hard for their parents to keep them under control. So if you want a nice quiet meal, forget it.

 

The buffet if properly managed (you really DO need someone standing by the hand steriliser making people use it on entering, or they won't) is not much more of a risk than say, using the handrail on the stairs, pushing the lift button, or flushing the toilet in a public restroom. I don't think getting rid of self service will get rid of novo.

[Fredette]

There are mixed reviews on The Pantry on P & O Aussie.

 

Most complaints are around the lack of variety of food, the lack of trays and the reconfiguration of the tables.

 

However the lack of variety is an interesting complaint - there are 10 themed food areas (e.g. Indian, Roast, Asian, Pastry, The Grill etc) and each has a variety of dishes that change each meal. So not sure how people can say lack of variety.

 

The removal of trays has been panned severely - especially those who are disabled or have kids or want to visit multiple stations.

 

The seating issue is due to removing some table space to make the concept work and also to put different seat configurations in - e.g. bar stools at high tables, couches etc.

 

No idea if this is cutting down on illness or food consumption but it seems to be the way P & O is going across their line.

 

There doesn't seem to be any complaints about wait times to be served or freshness of the food.

 

I don't know that you could call it 'variety'. I fronted up to check out the stir-fry a couple of teams, and walked past that station some more times, and every time the stir fry seemed to be bulked out with cabbage. Wait times aren't a problem, because everyone is in the restaurant now as the pantry is a dismal failure. You have to experience it to understand it.

[Fredette]

It's the bad habits of some passengers, not so much the food service issue that spreads Noro. How many just walk out of the toilets with no hand washing, or a minimal splash under the water? Too many.

 

I use the paper towel to open the door out of the restrooms as suggested, I wash my hands thoroughly & use sanitiser entering the restaurants as well as take my own as I believe it works better.

 

I have seen people have 2 plates of food in the buffet, then balance one on top of the other so the bottom of the top plate makes contact with the food below, thus placing anything it picked up from the counter onto the food - this wouldn't change if people were served from the buffet, only if every meal was served like main dining room style.

 

They also place their bread roll etc directly on the table in some cases rather than get an additional plate for it. They seem to think they can never go back to the buffet so pile their plates sky high so no room for the roll & to eat the food.

 

I enjoy the buffet, being able to pick & choose what I want, but I take precautions - never taking food from the front of the trays where stupid people place the tongs they just held in their potentially dirty hands on top of the food or on the bench, or little kids have been touching everything. I also wait for a fresh tray of something to arrive if it's down to it's last dregs.

 

I let staff know if I see something that could be an issue like last cruise a spoon dropped into the chocolate sauce or if tongs fall on the ground etc.

 

I never place the eating end of my cutlery on the tables in the buffet, always sit it on the edge of my plate otherwise anything on the table gets on your utensils which you then put in your mouth.

 

So many people just seem to be ignorant of basic hygiene when in public places, but then I find many people are just ignorant in general so it's no surprise really. :rolleyes:

 

So far I have never had Noro ever on any holiday, even travelling with my husband who contracted it in Morocco & was sick for 4 days. He has never had it on a cruise ship though. They say about 20% of the population is actually immune to Noro - hoping I'm one of those!

 

I also wipe down the cabin commonly touched areas that the staff don't always clean with a sanitiser wipe (light switches, door knobs etc) on first day in the cabin just in case.

 

I have caught a few colds though - one was from a selfish woman who knew she was sick & sat next to me, but came to dinner anyway then left half way through as she felt too ill, after having coughed all over the table of course.

 

No way to avoid other people, so the only option is to adopt a more rigid self hygiene oriented mind set when travelling - it becomes second nature.

 

Before anyone thinks I'm germ phobic - at home, which is on a farm, we use zero anti bacterial products, just orange cleaner. I only take precautions when travelling & so far so good. :)

 

 

That's a really good tip (taking wipies for any suspect areas). The crew are really hard working on these ships and you often see them wiping down handrails of an evening etc.... but they can't be everywhere. I must get some for my next cruise and just give doorknobs and the like in our cabin a going over before we unpack. Thank you.

[Kiwi Kruzer]

I agree that the crew would have stricter controls than anyone else on board. Especially the kitchen staff and food handling crew members. After all, they're responsible for the welfare of the entire ship - passengers and crew.

 

However, the crew member supervising the hand sanitiser at entry points sometimes need to be more vigilant.

 

I think they try to be , but often I see them give up in despair as they are confronted by rude and belligerent passengers .

[sun-set]

I agree that the crew would have stricter controls than anyone else on board. Especially the kitchen staff and food handling crew members. After all, they're responsible for the welfare of the entire ship - passengers and crew.

 

However, the crew member supervising the hand sanitiser at entry points sometimes need to be more vigilant.

 

Perhaps some hand washing places other than the toilets near the food outlets might help as the sanitizer is only anti bacterial, not much help against the noro virus.

Edited February 9, 2016 by sun-set