Are SDP gratuities really double tipping?

[Boschmann]

How the DSC or the 18% "gratuity" is divided is not part of the topic here. Everyone agrees at least part of them goes to the dining staff. It has little bearing on the question I posed.

[bruadhin]

How the DSC or the 18% "gratuity" is divided is not part of the topic here. Everyone agrees at least part of them goes to the dining staff. It has little bearing on the question I posed.

 

I hate to break it to you, this thread hit 77 posts in your post that I am quoting. Very few threads on any internet forum stay on topic anywhere near that long.

[swedish weave]

How the DSC or the 18% "gratuity" is divided is not part of the topic here. Everyone agrees at least part of them goes to the dining staff. It has little bearing on the question I posed.

 

It should become part of the question when and if the same people share in both the DSC and the 18% that is added on. That is double tipping.

Edited February 17, 2016 by swedish weave

[NLH Arizona]

We don't know as they don't tell us.

 

In an earlier post I said that is one possibility. I seem to recall it being mentioned at one point that part of the DSC does go to crew morale programs which would almost certainly benefit non-service staff as well as service staff. I am unable to find where I saw it.

 

I don't know that NCL is doing it nor am I saying they are, which is why I used would repeatedly. It is conditional on if they are. And again, NCL could do whatever they want with the DSC, to the best of my knowledge they would not be breaking any laws since they are not subject to US labor laws. Perhaps a law of their flag of registry, but I doubt it as those laws are heavily influenced by the cruise and shipping lines.

 

As always, transparency is your friend. When NCL refuses to divulge how the DSC is allocated, they leave themselves open to conjecture and speculation. Ultimately I doubt NCL cares enough to make a change. As long as berths are full and revenue grows, people must not be that upset about it.

 

I did find the following link and it mentions behind the scenes support staff. Does this include staff that would normally not participate in gratuities, I have no idea.

 

https://www.ncl.com/faq%2523service-charge

Then we don't know if any goes to non-service staff and for people to even insinuate it is being very disingenuous, in my opinion. If someone has facts and can tell us X percent or dollars goes to non-service staff or X percent or dollars goes to NCL's bottom line, then they should show those figures, otherwise it is just sheer speculation without any facts to back it up.

 

Yes, some lines tell where their service charge/automatic gratuities go, but do you know 100% that that is where they really go? NCL could come out and say it is broken down showing 100% goes to the staff, but no one would really know if it is correct or not and I would bet that there are some on here that would call them out for lying, even though they have no proof.

 

Also, why is it so impossible that a morale program wouldn't just include those service staff members that are also included in the DSC? If someone is so certain that it includes non-service staff, why don't they share what percentage goes to those non-service staff members. They don't because no one knows where the money goes and there is a lot of guessing on here with regard to where it goes, but no facts.

 

And to answer the OP's question if the gratuities on the SDP is double tipping - no one knows.

Edited February 17, 2016 by NLH Arizona

[swedish weave]

Then we don't know if any goes to non-service staff and for people to even insinuate it is being very disingenuous, in my opinion. If someone has facts and can tell us X percent or dollars goes to non-service staff or X percent or dollars goes to NCL's bottom line, then they should show those figures, otherwise it is just sheer speculation without any facts to back it up.

 

Yes, some lines tell where their service charge/automatic gratuities go, but do you know 100% that that is where they really go? NCL could come out and say it is broken down showing 100% goes to the staff, but no one would really know if it is correct or not and I would bet that there are some on here that would call them out for lying, even though they have no proof.

 

Also, why is it so impossible that a morale program wouldn't just include those service staff members that are also included in the DSC? If someone is so certain that it includes non-service staff, why don't they share what percentage goes to those non-service staff members. They don't because no one knows where the money goes and there is a lot of guessing on here with regard to where it goes, but no facts.

 

These statements should serve to eliminate any criticism of those who eliminate the DSC from their bill, because NOBODY KNOWS IF THE SERVERS ARE GETTING ANY OR ALL OF THE FUNDS.

 

Thank you for your valuable contribution and I am certain others will appreciate your information and help in removing the guilt trip that many who post here lay on those who even mention reducing the DSC.

[bruadhin]

Then we don't know if any goes to non-service staff and for people to even insinuate it is being very disingenuous, in my opinion. If someone has facts and can tell us X percent or dollars goes to non-service staff or X percent or dollars goes to NCL's bottom line, then they should show those figures, otherwise it is just sheer speculation without any facts to back it up.

 

Yes, some lines tell where their service charge/automatic gratuities go, but do you know 100% that that is where they really go? NCL could come out and say it is broken down showing 100% goes to the staff, but no one would really know if it is correct or not and I would bet that there are some on here that would call them out for lying, even though they have no proof.

 

Also, why is it so impossible that a morale program wouldn't just include those service staff members that are also included in the DSC? If someone is so certain that it includes non-service staff, why don't they share what percentage goes to those non-service staff members. They don't because no one knows where the money goes and there is a lot of guessing on here with regard to where it goes, but no facts.

 

And to answer the OP's question if the gratuities on the SDP is double tipping - no one knows.

 

So I guess Swedish Weave is right. We should all just remove the DSC per your argument. We have no idea where it is going or if the service staff receives any of it.

[LMaxwell]

Then we don't know if any goes to non-service staff and for people to even insinuate it is being very disingenuous, in my opinion. If someone has facts and can tell us X percent or dollars goes to non-service staff or X percent or dollars goes to NCL's bottom line, then they should show those figures, otherwise it is just sheer speculation without any facts to back it up.

 

Yes, some lines tell where their service charge/automatic gratuities go, but do you know 100% that that is where they really go? NCL could come out and say it is broken down showing 100% goes to the staff, but no one would really know if it is correct or not and I would bet that there are some on here that would call them out for lying, even though they have no proof.

 

Also, why is it so impossible that a morale program wouldn't just include those service staff members that are also included in the DSC? If someone is so certain that it includes non-service staff, why don't they share what percentage goes to those non-service staff members. They don't because no one knows where the money goes and there is a lot of guessing on here with regard to where it goes, but no facts.

 

And to answer the OP's question if the gratuities on the SDP is double tipping - no one knows.

 

1. We know NCL sets aside some of the DSC for crew welfare programs. They state this. So we just know that not 100% of what is charged to us as a guest goes direct to the staff in the service pool. It's easy to state what people do not know. More is not known than is known. But we can also state the things that we do know.

 

2. As to your very final comment quoted above, if you pay a gratuity on SDP and also pay a DSC you are paying for service on a meal in the dining room that you are not having. So if you are paying both, isn't that double tipping? If you don't think it is, how would you define it?

[NLH Arizona]

So I guess Swedish Weave is right. We should all just remove the DSC per your argument. We have no idea where it is going or if the service staff receives any of it.

I have no idea what Swedish Weave said, as I don't see his posts. I can only go by what NCL says, unless you can show proof otherwise: Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports. I would never remove or reduce the DSC, but you can believe and do what you want.

[NLH Arizona]

1. We know NCL sets aside some of the DSC for crew welfare programs. They state this. So we just know that not 100% of what is charged to us as a guest goes direct to the staff in the service pool. It's easy to state what people do not know. More is not known than is known. But we can also state the things that we do know.

 

2. As to your very final comment quoted above, if you pay a gratuity on SDP and also pay a DSC you are paying for service on a meal in the dining room that you are not having. So if you are paying both, isn't that double tipping? If you don't think it is, how would you define it?

1. How do you know that 100% of the welfare program doesn't go to the staff in the service pool?

 

2. No, it is not double dipping. Even though I cruise in a suite, I usually only eat in Cagney's for 1 breakfast (disembarkation day) and 1 lunch (embarkation day). So I also eat in the buffet, MDR and other complimentary venues during breakfast and lunch and those crew members are part of the DSC.

[LMaxwell]

1. How do you know that 100% of the welfare program doesn't go to the staff in the service pool?

 

2. No, it is not double dipping. Even though I cruise in a suite, I usually only eat in Cagney's for 1 breakfast (disembarkation day) and 1 lunch (embarkation day). So I also eat in the buffet, MDR and other complimentary venues during breakfast and lunch and those crew members are part of the DSC.

 

1. That's not an entirely relevant question from where I sit. All I said is that we know that they take some for a welfare program. So therefore not 100% goes directly to the eligible person. They get less than 100% as a pass through to spend however the see fit, and not how the company may see fit on a welfare program.

 

2. I don't cruise in a suite. If I want to eat at an upcharge venue or buy the SDP I will be charged an additional gratuity. I am also being charged the gratuity for the meal in the dining room whether I go there or not. So to me it is double tipping. I am paying for service in two different venues, but will only be in one.

[NLH Arizona]

1. That's not an entirely relevant question from where I sit. All I said is that we know that they take some for a welfare program. So therefore not 100% goes directly to the eligible person. They get less than 100% as a pass through to spend however the see fit, and not how the company may see fit on a welfare program.

 

2. I don't cruise in a suite. If I want to eat at an upcharge venue or buy the SDP I will be charged an additional gratuity. I am also being charged the gratuity for the meal in the dining room whether I go there or not. So to me it is double tipping. I am paying for service in two different venues, but will only be in one.

1. Sorry, but I feel it is entirely relevant. If the money goes to those included in the DSC as a welfare program, it is a benefit to them. NCL never said that 100% went to any certain eligible person, plus I would guess that not ever cabin steward or server gets the same salary (nor do I think they do on other cruise lines that say cabin stewards get $X of their daily automatic gratuity figure) or piece of the DSC pie. They have said that the money goes to salary, incentive programs and welfare programs, all of which (unless you can show where they have said differently) go to those included in the DSC.

 

2. I will also have to pay the 18% gratuity (because I only eat dinner in specialty restaurants) on top of the $15.50 DSC on my cruise after next and I still don't consider it double tipping.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

[SuiteCruiser]

1. Sorry, but I feel it is entirely relevant. If the money goes to those included in the DSC as a welfare program, it is a benefit to them. NCL never said that 100% went to any certain eligible person, plus I would guess that not ever cabin steward or server gets the same salary (nor do I think they do on other cruise lines that say cabin stewards get $X of their daily automatic gratuity figure) or piece of the DSC pie. They have said that the money goes to salary, incentive programs and welfare programs, all of which (unless you can show where they have said differently) go to those included in the DSC.

 

2. I will also have to pay the 18% gratuity (because I only eat dinner in specialty restaurants) on top of the $15.50 DSC on my cruise after next and I still don't consider it double tipping.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

How do you figure tipping another 18% on a meal that you've already paid for and tipped for and are not getting is anything but double dipping?

 

The classic sense of double dipping is in the MDR if you order lobster with your meal, you're charged 18% service charge on it and yet your tip for dinner was already paid.

[macandlucy]

Taking the example of someone who prepaid their DSC;

 

The cruise fare covers all (non specialty meals); let's call that 21.

 

The DSC covers the tips for all the service on those 21 meals total.

 

That's it -- all paid for, 21 meals worth of tips, paid in advance.

 

If you then go to eat in a specialty and pay a tip on that meal, you have now paid tips on 22 meals.

 

Since you can't be in two places, eating two meals, at the same time, you have double tipped on that one meal.

 

You are paying two times for the same thing -- that's the definition of double.

[swedish weave]

Since some who post here willingly pay the double tips, that should offset the amount that is removed from the DSC by those who don't want to double tip.

 

Another factor that enters into the discussion is NCL offering to pay the gratuities as a booking bonus. It seems they have discontinued that recently, but they must have the resources to replace the funds that some retrieve by reducing the DSC amount to an acceptable figure.

 

This provides proof that the crew does not suffer losses if some guests remove the DSC from their bill.

Edited February 18, 2016 by swedish weave

[sjbdtz]

It became our business when they asked us to do it for them.

 

In most states it is illegal to require service staff to share tips with non-service staff. While NCL wouldn't be subject to any such law, they would clearly be going against what many people feel is right if they are doing so.

 

Many lines clearly break down their daily gratuities so that guests know where their tips are going.

 

Every business uses your money to pay their staff.

 

NCL is no different, expect they let you know which portion of what you pay ($13.50 + 18%) is staff, and which portion (fare) isn't.

 

 

Stephen

 

 

.

[swedish weave]

Every business uses your money to pay their staff.

 

NCL is no different, expect they let you know which portion of what you pay ($13.50 + 18%) is staff, and which portion (fare) isn't.

 

 

Stephen

 

 

.

 

Some who post here state that the crew members are guaranteed a wage based on salary and incentives or bonus. If that is correct, what data do you use to justify your claim that the fare does not support the crews pay ?

 

If all guests did not agree to pay the extra charges, the crew would still receive their guaranteed income, wouldn't they ??

[Boschmann]

How do you figure tipping another 18% on a meal that you've already paid for and tipped for and are not getting is anything but double dipping?

 

This is what my entire question is about. You are claiming the SDP is another meal separate from what you paid in your cruise fare for food. NCL claims it is just a cost in addition to and above what you paid in your cruise fare, therefore the additional gratuity is due on it.

 

The classic sense of double dipping is in the MDR if you order lobster with your meal, you're charged 18% service charge on it and yet your tip for dinner was already paid.

 

Again, the lobster in MDR is an upcharge above what you paid in your cruise fare therefore a tip is due for the for the additional expenditure. Do you really think that NCL only charges $20 total for the lobster meal? It's in addition to the complementary cost.

 

Same as I described above for venues like Bayamo that are in addition to the SDP so you pay gratuity on that upcharge to the SDP.

 

I understand NCL's reasoning and gratuity charges on SDP and upcharge venues. My question is do the a la carte prices show the fallacy of this pricing structure.

[LMaxwell]

Taking the example of someone who prepaid their DSC;

 

The cruise fare covers all (non specialty meals); let's call that 21.

 

The DSC covers the tips for all the service on those 21 meals total.

 

That's it -- all paid for, 21 meals worth of tips, paid in advance.

 

If you then go to eat in a specialty and pay a tip on that meal, you have now paid tips on 22 meals.

 

Since you can't be in two places, eating two meals, at the same time, you have double tipped on that one meal.

 

You are paying two times for the same thing -- that's the definition of double.

 

Thank you for your post. I was struggling how to clearly communicate my point and I think you did a good job of it.

[LMaxwell]

Again, the lobster in MDR is an upcharge above what you paid in your cruise fare therefore a tip is due for the for the additional expenditure.

 

What? you are paying for the service in the MDR with the DSC. If they hit you up for a tip on an upcharge item in the main dining room that's like Websters dictionary definition of double tipping. You meant to argue against that point and, to me, you clearly did the opposite.

 

If a hand goes into my pocket twice for one thing, that's a double.

[swedish weave]

This is what my entire question is about. You are claiming the SDP is another meal separate from what you paid in your cruise fare for food. NCL claims it is just a cost in addition to and above what you paid in your cruise fare, therefore the additional gratuity is due on it.

 

 

 

Again, the lobster in MDR is an upcharge above what you paid in your cruise fare therefore a tip is due for the for the additional expenditure. Do you really think that NCL only charges $20 total for the lobster meal? It's in addition to the complementary cost.

 

Same as I described above for venues like Bayamo that are in addition to the SDP so you pay gratuity on that upcharge to the SDP.

 

I understand NCL's reasoning and gratuity charges on SDP and upcharge venues. My question is do the a la carte prices show the fallacy of this pricing structure.

 

On my recent Carnival cruise, they served lobster in the MDR (as many as you wanted) and there were NO upcharges or additional service charges. That belies the belief that NCL needs to charge additional for that food item and service.

 

Another factor that creeps into this is the complimentary meals that I received from NCL as a Platinum Lattitudes member. For many years, I have had the privilege of enjoying the escargot and soup with my meal. Since the a la carte pricing was instituted, I was told I could not have both items with my entree. How do you justify the cutbacks in earned benefits by NCL.

 

I cannot support your theory about the justification of the extra charges.

Edited February 18, 2016 by swedish weave

[Boschmann]

Here's another way to think of lobster in the MDR. You buy a restaurant gift certificate for a meal good for up to $15 that covered tax & tip. But when you get there the lobster looks good and it costs $35, the restaurant says okay that's a $20 up charge plus 18% of the $20 for a tip. Does that help?

[Boschmann]

Taking the example of someone who prepaid their DSC;

 

The cruise fare covers all (non specialty meals); let's call that 21.

 

The DSC covers the tips for all the service on those 21 meals total.

 

That's it -- all paid for, 21 meals worth of tips, paid in advance.

 

If you then go to eat in a specialty and pay a tip on that meal, you have now paid tips on 22 meals.

 

Since you can't be in two places, eating two meals, at the same time, you have double tipped on that one meal.

 

 

You are paying two times for the same thing -- that's the definition of double.

 

This is wrong. You have not paid for 22 meals. When you pay a specialty restaurant cover you just paid for 20 regular meals and 1 specialty meal.

[LMaxwell]

This is wrong. You have not paid for 22 meals. When you pay a specialty restaurant cover you just paid for 20 regular meals and 1 specialty meal.

 

The reality is you have consumed 20 regular meals and 1 specialty meal.

 

But you have been charged for 21 meals and 1 specialty.

[Boschmann]

On my recent Carnival cruise, they served lobster in the MDR (as many as you wanted) and there were NO upcharges or additional service charges. That belies the belief that NCL needs to charge additional for that food item and service.

 

Another factor that creeps into this is the complimentary meals that I received from NCL as a Platinum Lattitudes member. For many years, I have had the privilege of enjoying the escargot and soup with my meal. Since the a la carte pricing was instituted, I was told I could not have both items with my entree. How do you justify the cutbacks in earned benefits by NCL.

 

I cannot support your theory about the justification of the extra charges.

 

I cannot speak for why NCL feels the need to make these upcharge meals, I figure it's to keep base fares low and those that want "better" food can pay a little more. I'm not trying to justify any of these cutbacks, in fact I see the a la carte pricing as exposing basic overcharging for specialty restaurants.

[swedish weave]

I cannot speak for why NCL feels the need to make these upcharge meals, I figure it's to keep base fares low and those that want "better" food can pay a little more. I'm not trying to justify any of these cutbacks, in fact I see the a la carte pricing as exposing basic overcharging for specialty restaurants.

 

Ref your comment about low base fares --- The base fare excluding port charges and taxes was almost double on NCL to what I paid on Carnival.

I did these cruises back to back, so have current accounts to compare.

 

My impression is that NCL is selling "upscale" but providing cheap and digging every nickel they can out of the guests. On the other hand, Carnival is providing items in the daily meals that NCL upcharges for. Examples Lobster, Escargot, Filet Mignon, and each day they have a specialty item on the menu such as frog legs and others.

 

Another important item was the OBC. NCL restricted the use of OBC to the shops and I could not use it for the gratuities or casino. On Carnival, it was wide open and was used to offset all onboard expenses.

 

I know this it off topic, but it is important to see that NCL is not in the same league with Carnival since the new management began making numerous changes and cutbacks under the guise of going "upscale".

Edited February 18, 2016 by swedish weave